Dp 13/14 sale

 
  i_know_nothing Train Controller

There was one local group negotiating to acquire it and they were told it was theirs pending council approval. It had got to the point where transport was being arranged. There was no indication from BCC of any other interested parties, let alone that there was a higher offer. BCC, or a small group within, appear to have been quite disingenuous.

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  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
Oh witch group was that? But file a complaint he will call and you can fill in more of the story!
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
Why aren't i surprised on how this saga has happened. The BCC are still keeping this secret but i have found out lots, go figure!
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Just for the sake of keeping relevent links, here is the Burnie council minutes from 17th Sept where the railcars were discussed
http://www.burnie.net/files/c16cfecb-acd8-4fe3-9ff7-a24900a57e1f/CED.pdf

http://www.burnie.net/Council/Agendas-and-Minutes
  Floody Locomotive Driver

Well that does open it up a bit. You would think there should be some records from the official 'workshop' about the disposal.

“THAT Council write to those parties expressing an interest in purchasing the Burnie Rail rolling stock and advise that it will not be proceeding with the disposal process at this point in time;
BCC
^But given this was a carried motion in September it seems odd they've been disposed of at all.
  LFD459 Locomotive Fireman

From Burnie City Council:

After an expression of interest process, Burnie City Council has secured a new home for the fire damaged train engine.


“Council discussed the option of restoring the damaged engine, but the exercise was too costly, and the future of having a tourism running train was looking more and more unlikely. Council opted to see what interest there was for the burnt engine carriage on an as-is, where-is basis.”


Council has accepted an offer for the burnt out engine carriage from DownStream Tourist Railway and Museum, based in Queensland.


“The offer from DownStream Tourist Railway and Museum, although not based in Tasmania, was financially the best opportunity to see a return on investment, and is set to be fully restored and used again in an exciting venture.

To be honest, it’s a better outcome than we had hoped for the damaged carriage. Potentially the damaged carriage could have been scrapped.


“The remaining two carriages for now will continue to be housed at the existing site at the former train station. However, Council is in discussions with Don River Railway to discuss future possibilities of the remaining engine and entertainment carriage,” Mayor Kons said.

Cheers, LFD459
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
See best money option hopefully this can be stopped as other groups was not given a chance
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
See best money option hopefully this can be stopped as other groups was not given a chance
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
See best money option hopefully this can be stopped as other groups was not given a chance
Electric C
That's not how I read it. Seems it was either that or scrapping...
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
That's not how I read it. Seems it was either that or scrapping...
Graham4405
all groups in this state (members included, I'm a out of work sparkie) couldn't afford the price BCC wanted, the queensland mob could so there for It was a "great return" for BCC, only the money was considered! a new group here (DTT) now really has no chance of gaining a local passenger vehicle suited to there era (this was really the only one) as the other two are not for sale and if they are I'm sure BCC will be seeking the "best return" again.
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
New Facebook group, http://www.facebook.com/keepDP13intas
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Don't worry guys, when it gets to Toowoomba I'll take a photo of it for you. Very Happy
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
Don't worry guys, when it gets to Toowoomba I'll take a photo of it for you. Very Happy
GrahamH
Don't be like that there is no bad blood towards downs steam (at the moment), we are assuming they thought they was getting something no one else wanted. Hopefully with all the want for this to stay in the state and its history as shown here and on the new facebook page with over 40 likes in less then 24 hours you hopefully being a true rail fan should understand our frustration! (just maybe downs steam will too!)
  aussie48 Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
Having ridden to work on the the Dp's when I was doing my apprenticeship at the EZ company I think it is a godsend that someone is going to save it.   Whether it stays in Tasmania or anywhere else who really cares, the good thing it will be saved and restored.   If it is or was purchased by a Tasmanian Heritage Group it would/will sit for years in it's present sad state because no one has the money to restore it.
A bit like the foamers here in Victoria that want 40 odd year old Hitachi sparks to run revnue service still.
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
Having ridden to work on the the Dp's when I was doing my apprenticeship at the EZ company I think it is a godsend that someone is going to save it.   Whether it stays in Tasmania or anywhere else who really cares, the good thing it will be saved and restored.
aussie48
there was at least 4 groups down here that was willing to save it

If it is or was purchased by a Tasmanian Heritage Group it would/will sit for years in it's present sad state
aussie48
Actually no (normally I agree, I do try) but this would be  a simple resto, I had already found and was looking into a few railcar bodies located on farms. The only group that would leave it sitting is Diesel traction for 1-2 years as they have no shed yet!

because no one has the money to restore it.
aussie48
Finally someone has worked out we have sweet F.A. cash down here! That's what started this mess!

A bit like the foamers here in Victoria that want 40 odd year old Hitachi sparks to run revenue service still
aussie48

Yeah I don't get that they have had a very good run (and last time I was there I got the fun of riding one, missus wasn't so happy). But it isn't like that if it was DP 14 I'd be annoyed but I wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail to keep it! DP 13 is one of the most historical rail items in Tas, how many other states can say this is our last revenue service passenger vehicle.
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
DP 13 is one of the most historical rail items in Tas, how many other states can say this is our last revenue service passenger vehicle.
Electric C
Hang on, is it the last revenue service passenger vehicle though?

I thought TGR converted it to an inspection vehicle prior to the Tasman Limited finishing up? I'm not sure I'd count running kids to the Burnie show as revenue either.
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
It was converted to a inspection/commissioners car in 1959 but was used as a charter vehicle from 1978 until 1996/97 burnie show was just one of its runs on hire (driven by AN staff etc) I've seen vids/pic of it on runs all around the state in the 80's and 90's all on hire to groups so not time tabled runs but it was still making money for AN
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: .
In summary;

You have a railcar that has almost been completely destroyed due to a fire which has also been sold to an interstate group because its owner wants the best return they can get for it (that's nothing unusual although I still can't figure out why the QLD group would want the thing).

You have a group of local enthusiasts bemoaning the fact that "their train" is being "stolen" from them. That group of local enthusiasts now want to stop "their train" from leaving "its home" even though the resources to restore it, and indeed the likelihood of that happening in "its home" range from incredibly slim to none at all. Instead of actually using this time to concentrate on obtaining the other two already operational cars and giving them a good home, they'll put up a fight for something that is to say the least, just about derelict, just so it can say where it "belongs" and rot for all eternity (they are gunzels after all, and there's nothing unusual about that sort of behavior in a crowd like this).

What's likely to happen;

A band of people will get together and prevent it leaving the state (a state that has less money to throw around than some regional area's of NSW); DP13 will be given to a local group instead; that band of people who were responsible for it staying in Tasmania will slowly leave the movement resulting in it becoming the groups new toy; the group will realise that it's a heap of crud that they can't restore without a massive cash injection that they don't have; it'll be pushed to the back of the shed and forgotten about where it'll just deteriorate further; the band of gunzels who kept it in Tasmania will live happily ever after in the knowledge that they kept DP13 in Tasmania even though it's still stored down the back of some shed (or more likely out in the open) in no better condition than it is now and also despite that fact that they haven't seen it in years since liking a Facebook page and making a few posts.


DP13's future in Tasmania, bleak. DP13's future in Queensland, we don't know, but it could be better than the one it faces in Tasmania. However, a group of gunzels who won't put in the hard yards to give it a future in Tasmania once their little campaign is over won't give it that chance to be anything other than a burnt out shell stored down the back that's really only good for a few parts and the scrap bin.

Why am I so pessimistic? Because I've seen it before. I've seen a steam locomotive that sat peacefully in a park for twenty-five years handed over to an interstate preservation group who could have had it at their base within two months, and fully restored to working order within two years as was fully intended, lost (the interstate group inspected it and found it to have a fantastic boiler and to also be in great mechanical order). Instead, a group of local gunzels and some old fuddies from the town rallied against it and instead it was decided to withdrawal the offer because of the local backlash and to instead leave it in the park with a new paint job. Do you know where that loco is now? Well, it sat in the park for another five years until a local tourist railway in its home state got a hold of it after the council finally decided enough was enough, but the kicker is that it's now stored out the back of a shed with rust holes in the cab and tender walls that you could push a fat lady through while its motion and wheels were pinched to replace the flogged out set on another loco that itself isn't running anymore (and, that loco was stopped because they flogged that replacement set of motion out after a rather "rushed" bit of repair and changeover work).

Railway enthusiasts can themselves be a railway item's worst enemy at times.
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
DP14 and PT5 aren't for sale also seems council WANT to keep them.

The real issue on DP13 is, we down here was locked out of discussions during the expressions of interest. The council were only interested in getting money, prob a fair bit for something worth so little atm.
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
although I still can't figure out why the QLD group would want the thing.
The_trolley
this is correct, one of the only things i agree with you on

You have a group of local enthusiasts bemoaning the fact that "their train" is being "stolen" from them. That group of local enthusiasts now want to stop "their train" from leaving "its home" even though the resources to restore it, and indeed the likelihood of that happening in "its home" range from incredibly slim to none at all. Instead of actually using this time to concentrate on obtaining the other two already operational cars and giving them a good home, they'll put up a fight for something that is to say the least, just about derelict, just so it can say where it "belongs" and rot for all eternity (they are gunzels after all, and there's nothing unusual about that sort of behavior in a crowd like this).
The_trolley
I personally take offence to this and quite frankly go smeg yourself with a running chainsaw. Granted there is some gunzelers among us, I along with a lot of members do enjoy taking the odd snap of a train. I'd much rather be working on it witch i do most Saturdays (unless I'm displaying my old engines) from about 9 until after 5. When i don't have work (sadly quite a bit this time of year) I go during the week and after work i work on things for "trains 'n' trams" (as my better half has termed it) also i do up my own collection ranging from lawn mowers to cars to 2.1 tons of Lister!! (the main project at the time is a 1930's gangers trolley). Yes some only come to take photos and im at the other end of the stick but the group i can see working on will get it done and some (such as my self) had already started organizing things to do so!

Why am I so pessimistic? Because I've seen it before. I've seen a steam locomotive that sat peacefully in a park for twenty-five years handed over to an interstate preservation group who could have had it at their base within two months, and fully restored to working order within two years as was fully intended, lost (the interstate group inspected it and found it to have a fantastic boiler and to also be in great mechanical order). Instead, a group of local gunzels and some old fuddies from the town rallied against it and instead it was decided to withdrawal the offer because of the local backlash and to instead leave it in the park with a new paint job. Do you know where that loco is now? Well, it sat in the park for another five years until a local tourist railway in its home state got a hold of it after the council finally decided enough was enough, but the kicker is that it's now stored out the back of a shed with rust holes in the cab and tender walls that you could push a fat lady through while its motion and wheels were pinched to replace the flogged out set on another loco that itself isn't running anymore (and, that loco was stopped because they flogged that replacement set of motion out after a rather "rushed" bit of repair and changeover work).
The_trolley
Yes this is a sad case (although that rust don't appear in 5-10 years) but did you stop riding your bike as well after you fell off the first time? There is a great case of a steam loco, EBR no.8, down here of being removed from a sea side park and restored although now out of use due to driving wheel issues (and having no where to run). There is another case of one being removed ,TGR's Ab 4, is now stored inside and a new boiler found but work has been stalled for years due to a ownership issue but its better now then in a park. The final case i can give you for tassie is a diesel loco, X 30, that is undergoing restoration by DVR after sitting in a park for 20+ years!
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: .
Electric C,


You missed the point of my post entirely, and especially the last bit about the park engine. My point was that state patriotism meant that a locomotive’s future was lost. Instead of it being allowed to go interstate where it would have been restored to running order in under two years (yes, with new cab sides and tender walls to replace those rusted out ones that you could push Kirstie Alley through after a feed of Hungry Jacks…), a group of people kicked up a stink and fought for it to stay because of one reason, it was “their engine”. Today, because of their attitude, a locomotive that would have been easily restored is in far worse condition than it was at that time while mismanagement has resulted in it losing any chance of it ever seeing a future as a working locomotive. My comments had nothing to do with the possibility of restoring park locomotives or even badly burnt out railcars to service. Rather, my comment was about the railfan community actually letting equipment go where it actually has a future instead of holding onto it and letting it rot because it’s “theirs”.


My point is, which you completely missed, sometimes it is better to allow something to go interstate rather than hold onto with all claws because its future might actually be brighter elsewhere. As I said before, DP13 could end up staying in Tasmania, but it’ll be to the determent of that railcar because the money and assistance to restore it just isn’t there. Form a group in conjunction with Burnie Council or lobby the council for the other two cars; at least they stand a chance of running again and serving a purpose in Tasmania other than being a bit of junk that clutters up some groups back lot.


As for the rest of what you said, well, frankly, I couldn’t give a toss what you think about me or my views. While you may be restoring and looking after a collection of historic machines (which I do commend you on), the rest of the followers you’re likely to bring on board aren’t, and they’re the one’s who will pay lip service to this whole thing and then quietly disappear never to be heard from again (unless they log back into Railpage in five years time to complain about the car being in Queensland and potentially running or moaning about how it’s still sitting out the back of the DVR or DRR as a burnt out shell).


Experience tells me all that I need to know, and that is the unless a miracle happens, DP13 won’t have a future in Tasmania as anything other than a burnt out shell. But hey, at least it’ll still be in Tasmania, right?
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
Well yes it is our rail car so we will hang on to it! So the point of your post is to say that tassie is useless at restoring things we will all yell and stomp then since we are so poor and useless it will rust away? Condemning a whole state thanks for that
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: .
Not in those exact words, but yes, I do not believe Tasmania's railway preservation movement is capable of restoring DP13 to service at this time. Furthermore, the time and money involved in restoring a burnt out hulk would probably be better spent on other more valuable items. State patriotism and that "it's mine" attitude means that people like yourself can't and won't accept that though.

The DRR especially has done a fantastic job of restoring, maintaining and operating Tasmania's railway heritage, but it's obvious to see that they and the other groups are hurting at the moment. And, given the fact that the money supply is getting tighter and that the volunteers themselves are too (they're getting too old), well, hopefully you can see my point...

Instead of draining a groups finances, efforts and space on a fire damaged hulk, why not let it go to somewhere it might have a future and instead concentrate on the other two cars which could be easily returned to service? And, bonus, that money that you'd be wasting on DP13 might go to something useful like restarting on A4, overhauling EBR 8 or finishing off X30.

I have no doubt Tasmania could restore DP13 if they had the finances and time; however, it's plain to see that isn't the case. Spend your time and money wisely, and DP13 isn't being wise, not when you could spent a lot less time on two other running cars that require a lot less attention and then have some of that spare time and money to expend on something else of importance.

You can't win them all!
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: .
Putting things into perspective here, but DP13's sister cars, DP14, DP15 and DP22 are all still preserved in Tasmania and they're also all operational or capable of operation.

So, with that in mind, why is the fire damaged hulk of DP13 any more valuable that those other three and does it deserve the massive amounts of time and expenditure that would be required to restore it when there are already three virtually identical and operational cars already in the state?

How is DP13, currently one of four of its type in Tasmania, more deserving of funding and effort than a one off piece or a lone survivor? And, if anyone says because it's Tasmanian or because it was the last vehicle in passenger service in the state (well, it was an inspection vehicle and saw ad-hoc passenger use) then you're standing on pretty shaky ground as far as justifying the time, money and effort required to retain and restore it goes.
  Electric C Junior Train Controller

Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
Putting in perspective? Yes there are other railcars here, dons DP 22 (not so sister) transport museums 15 (also different) and BCC's (witch they are keeping, once was the same) so yes not all the same! with DP 13 once being the commissioners car (witch I'd love to see it as) is different and why it's worth keeping as they was the best the railways did! And with its history is worth restoring! If you can't see that this discussion may as well end (one would assume with one final quip from you) and it may end up with diesel traction (oh god a new group how is this possible in your version of tassie) as there well
suited passenger car

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