Activity at Springvale

 
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
I went down to Springvale yesterday and took a few photos.

1 - from the end of platform 2


2 - from near the end of the platform


3 - looking down from the temporary bridge accessing platform 2


4 - from the bridge looking toward the level crossing


5 - from Sandown Road


6 - the new bridge


7 - from Springvale Road looking toward Westall


8 - from the newish pedestrian overpass

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  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Thanks Gauntlet,

It's very different to Mitcham, which I guess reflects the significantly less space available to do the work. No sign of any station building as yet - what about platforms? Are they visible down in the trench?
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
I don't think the trench is deep enough to build platforms just yet, it's still very shallow under and opposite Springvale Road.
What surprise me was the concrete structure on the other side of the bridge. Maybe they'll have a pedestrian underpass like Nunawading.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I don't think the trench is deep enough to build platforms just yet, it's still very shallow under and opposite Springvale Road.
What surprise me was the concrete structure on the other side of the bridge. Maybe they'll have a pedestrian underpass like Nunawading.
"Gauntlet"

Springvale Road is very busy, so a pedestrian underpass would make sense. I would have liked to have seen one at Mitcham too, but it's a totally different design to Nunawading. Is Springvale to get an island platform, or individual up and down platforms?
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
Springvale Road already has a pedestrian underpass about 50m south of the level crossing.
The only plan I've seen was the video they released in May.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-9GsTm0n8U
It showed side platforms, no underpass and no structure on the other side, but it also has passengers waiting in mid air where the platforms might get extended for nine carriage trains.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
What's with that second road overpass ?

Is the video of Mitcham but with the station name board changed to Springvale ?
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

What's with that second road overpass ?

Is the video of Mitcham but with the station name board changed to Springvale ?
"Nightfire"

No. It's nothing like Mitcham.
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
Maybe the overpass is because all the car parking is on the south side.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I've subscribed to the Springvale project email updates.  Apparently there is a second road bridge that has been built that is to connect Lightwood Ave & Sandown Rd opposite Kelvin Gve.

My observations is that Springvale is nowhere near as advanced as Mitcham however work is progressing at a steady pace.  I travel past there on train twice a week and it's sometimes difficult to see what is going on inside the trench as a screen blocks the view when the train is on platform 2.  I'm also puzzled by the concrete structure on the west side of the bridge - room for new shops perhaps? I'm also still curious as to how the Westall yards will be connected as there used to be a connection immediately up from the crossing to the siding track.
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
And these short sighted idiots have only two tracks in the hole i bet?????

Regards
  712M Chief Commissioner

Of course. Apparently, there is no justification for amplification on the Dandenong line. Any overcrowding or capacity problems will be a thing of the past once East West Link is built.
  ChoooChoo Chief Train Controller

And these short sighted idiots have only two tracks in the hole i bet?????

Regards
davesvline
Yep, only two tracks but provisions have been made for future amplification.

Unfortunately, considering the station will be below ground level, with cement walls- it will definitely be a costly and disruptive project when the time comes that the track will be amplified.

Having said that, at least there is a higher priority on signalling upgrades on the line instead of billions on a 3rd track.

With the signalling upgrades, more juice can be squeezed out of current infrastructure.

Which of course only delays the expensive pickle of tearing up concrete walls and disrupting a below ground station to add an extra track Shocked
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
People there Is no room to build a massive 4 platform station at Springvale (of witch half will be disused for the time being)

When the time comes to expand the station to 4 platforms the path the existing track (through the existing level crossing) would be dug out, a new road bridge would need to carry Springvale Road over the new tracks.

Works would have limited Impact on the existing railway, road yes (shutdowns to build the overpass)
  merlin Chief Commissioner

Location: North East Adelaide
The argument can be made both ways. E.g. how about Box hill? Arguably, that ended up a complete waste of money....
  Madjikthise Assistant Commissioner

Who says Springvale needs 4 platforms? Could be done as 3 or 4 tracks and still only 2 platforms.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Who says Springvale needs 4 platforms? Could be done as 3 or 4 tracks and still only 2 platforms.
Madjikthise
Come on there are very lengthy threads about track amplification, and three track layout Is on the nose, due to the Inability to balance rolling stock movements.

Like It or not Springvale Is a major stop along the Dandenong line.
  frezno Junior Train Controller

ChoooChoo, sadly it sounds like you have been listening to that drivel Morton goes on and on about..


"Having said that, at least there is a higher priority on signalling upgrades on the line instead of billions on a 3rd track."

A third track would be much more beneficial to the south east that any High Capacity Signalling crap will be. Either the PTUA and Morton are married to HCS or they're sponsored by it. I've never heard so much crap spill out of someones mouth before, honestly. We can currently - easily - run trains on our existing system at 2 minute intervals. Nowhere on our system needs a closer frequency than that, including the south east. This therefore renders HCS a complete and utter farce, a sad and pathetic joke, a blight on Melbournes future..and so on.
  ChoooChoo Chief Train Controller

ChoooChoo, sadly it sounds like you have been listening to that drivel Morton goes on and on about..


"Having said that, at least there is a higher priority on signalling upgrades on the line instead of billions on a 3rd track."

A third track would be much more beneficial to the south east that any High Capacity Signalling crap will be. Either the PTUA and Morton are married to HCS or they're sponsored by it. I've never heard so much crap spill out of someones mouth before, honestly. We can currently - easily - run trains on our existing system at 2 minute intervals. Nowhere on our system needs a closer frequency than that, including the south east. This therefore renders HCS a complete and utter farce, a sad and pathetic joke, a blight on Melbournes future..and so on.
frezno
Not intending to go further off topic on this (there have been previous threads on this).

But that's simply incorrect.

Our signals are failing on a daily basis:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/signal-failures-hit-rail-five-times-a-day-20131023-2w1ty.html

And nowhere on the system are we running trains on 2 minute frequencies smoothly. Trains are often forced to snail crawl behind another train because of the signals, or  because a train departs a few minutes late (whether due to passengers or other factors).

A HCS would allow trains to run closer together despite these delays (which would still need attention as to how to reduce).

The SE has freight (which will increase with Port of Hastings), V/Line and increasing metro services.

I have not just been listening to PTUA, our own transport department is looking into higher capacity signalling.

If you look at a lot of international countries with extensive metro systems, many train lines do not have 3,4,5,6 tracks. They run perfectly well using two tracks but with better signalling.

  • the busiest subway line in Rome (an ordinary two-track railway much like ours, only underground), carries 500,000 passengers a day. On the day of the Pope's funeral in 2006, this one Italian train line carried one million passengers: more than are carried per day on Melbourne's entire train system.
  • The Paris RER 'A' line (again a two-track railway, but with more signalling) carries 55,000 passengers an hour, more than a million per weekday, and 273 million in a year. This one line exceeds Melbourne's entire train passenger load by some 30 to 40 per cent.


The above are PTUA examples, feel free to refute them. But i've travelled overseas enough to see that many cities with a much higher public transport usage manage well on two tracks.

It's not rocket science to understand that if you can run trains closer together, you can fit more trains on the same pair of tracks.

Just take the train more often in peak hour and you'll notice how many times the driver says "apologies for the slow running, but we are currently trailing another train."

Yes, a fresh pair of track (like the RRL will provide) can separate v/line and express trains.

All I'm saying is let's invest in getting more out of our current track (which I would assume is cheaper anyway) before we go spending millions acquiring inner city properties and digging the ground.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
A HCS would allow trains to run closer together despite these delays (which would still need attention as to how to reduce).

The SE has freight (which will increase with Port of Hastings), V/Line and increasing metro services.

If you look at a lot of international countries with extensive metro systems, many train lines do not have 3,4,5,6 tracks. They run perfectly well using two tracks but with better signalling.

  • the busiest subway line in Rome (an ordinary two-track railway much like ours, only underground), carries 500,000 passengers a day. On the day of the Pope's funeral in 2006, this one Italian train line carried one million passengers: more than are carried per day on Melbourne's entire train system.
  • The Paris RER 'A' line (again a two-track railway, but with more signalling) carries 55,000 passengers an hour, more than a million per weekday, and 273 million in a year. This one line exceeds Melbourne's entire train passenger load by some 30 to 40 per cent.

It's not rocket science to understand that if you can run trains closer together, you can fit more trains on the same pair of tracks.

Yes, a fresh pair of track (like the RRL will provide) can separate v/line and express trains.

All I'm saying is let's invest in getting more out of our current track (which I would assume is cheaper anyway) before we go spending millions acquiring inner city properties and digging the ground.
ChoooChoo

Okie dokie.

I still think we should add crossovers and a 3rd line into the system to allow more flexibility. Probably just as much as HCS would do.

Metro systems do fine with HCS, as they dont have mixes and matches of traffic, like we do with freights and regional passenger. They are usually a stand alone system with the same sets of trains. Also the RER 'A' line uses double deck 10+ car long trains, where as we use 6 car single deck trains (bad example there).

The problem area is not the inner city, but further afield from Caulfield to Pakenham is on double track with frequent trains. Irregardless of HCS, the faster train will still catch up. QUBE and V/line generally find a path to slot in, but have on to keep slowing down because they catch up to the train in front.
  frezno Junior Train Controller

And nowhere on the system are we running trains on 2 minute frequencies smoothly. Trains are often forced to snail crawl behind another train because of the signals, or  because a train departs a few minutes late (whether due to passengers or other factors).

I have not just been listening to PTUA, our own transport department is looking into higher capacity signalling.

If you look at a lot of international countries with extensive metro systems, many train lines do not have 3,4,5,6 tracks. They run perfectly well using two tracks but with better signalling.

  • the busiest subway line in Rome (an ordinary two-track railway much like ours, only underground), carries 500,000 passengers a day. On the day of the Pope's funeral in 2006, this one Italian train line carried one million passengers: more than are carried per day on Melbourne's entire train system.
  • The Paris RER 'A' line (again a two-track railway, but with more signalling) carries 55,000 passengers an hour, more than a million per weekday, and 273 million in a year. This one line exceeds Melbourne's entire train passenger load by some 30 to 40 per cent.

It's not rocket science to understand that if you can run trains closer together, you can fit more trains on the same pair of tracks.

Just take the train more often in peak hour and you'll notice how many times the driver says "apologies for the slow running, but we are currently trailing another train."
ChoooChoo
Do you really think it matters whether a train crawls behind another when there 6+ minutes of make up time in most lines timetables? Most trains that run through the loop in peak hour are timetabled for a slower speed between loop stations and still get to the next station on time. Regardless of how slow it feels, if it's timetabled 2/3 minutes and it arrives on time, there's no issue and no need for HCS.

I'm aware of the transport department looking into HCS. That's why I have lost all faith in our transport department and think they're the second biggest bunch of knob jockeys to walk this earth, second only to PTUA.

Wow, all those flashy statistics look like they mean something. Its not rocket science, but they still don't solve how a V/Line train (or express Pakenham train for that matter) overtakes a Cranbourne or Dandenong stopping all stations. It may give you bragging rights, but no amount of expensive pointless in cab/HC signalling will enable you to do that.

I work regularly in peak hour. You will notice that if a stopping all stations train is delayed, the express will catch up before it is timetabled to. Common sense. If the stopping all stations train is on time, the express behind it will catch up when it is timetabled to. Therefore we do not need to spend up big on HCS as it will do nothing to solve the reason for the stopping all station being delayed initially. This is Melbourne not Europe. We have a plethora of bogan scum here who have no regard for anything, graffiti trains, vandalise trains, tracks and equipment. They are always going to cause delays and as such, even with an expensive new signalling system there will still be delays. There is no avoiding that in Melbourne. We are simply too lenient and disrespectful here.
  Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren
I think both HCS and additional tracks should be forgotten about until Cranbourne is duplicated, but I am annoyed (but not surprised) that no privision for additional tracks has been made at Springvale.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I am annoyed (but not surprised) that no privision for additional tracks has been made at Springvale.
B
There Is provision foe extra tracks through the Springvale Station present.

You won't see much or any works for extra tracks, simply because track application Is not part of the current scope of works (nor Is there any funding for It)
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has the underpass (rail underpass) been designed for more than the existing two tracks?

Regards
Brian
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

Maybe for the Gippsland trains to carry extra freight, it is time to re-establish existing railway corridors, aka the Outer Circle reservation is still mostly intact. Ok a flyover the Monash Freeway could easlily be built or swing in the freight line along the Alamien Line. Or at worst for the Port of Hasings, a reserve has been put aside following the Eastlink.  It is time for a re-think, instead of pollies and railway Gunzels blowing their own trumpets. We need answers NOW............
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Has the underpass (rail underpass) been designed for more than the existing two tracks?

Regards
Brian
bevans
Only two tracks.

A second rail underpass South of the one being built, would need to be built for extra tracks

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