RRL Project - West Werribee / Southern Cross

 
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I really don't know why this specific signal is there. The only other time I have seen similar dwarf signals is either in yards or on a small branch line/ siding where it would join the relevant mainline. For those out there that don't know, despite being known as purple, they do appear to be blue, I assume this is to avoid confusion with red signals.

I am by no means an expert on signals or safeworking, I apologise if people expect me to explain more on this topic, but I will leave that to those with more knowledge.

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Hi,

I'll add my 10 cents worth.

With the latest shutdown bi-directional operating was elimimated from Deer Park west to Sunshine.

All trains on the up from Ballarat must slow to 65kph at Kp 25 for the Junction at KP 23 and divert onto the former north line which is 130kph speed limited.

Trains from sunshine to Ballarat have to operate on the new down line or former South line. Which was the 160kph or fast line.

So the little dwarf on the former north line is for shunting moves into the boral siding if the set arrived from Ballarat for example from what I can fiqure out. Not exactly clear on this.

So one negative is these 65 kph points at Deer Park. I still think they should be at least 80kph to avoid slowing every Ballarat to Melbourne train down.

At the Geelong junction all trains will have to operate at 65kph in either direction.

Cheers Al.
richter170

This change highlights the need for the Deer Park West to Melton line to be duplicated.

65 km/h points at Geelong junction seams rather lame, the use of 100 + km/h swing nose points would be more appropriate.

What would be needed to bring the North line up to 160 km/h class 1 ?
(little need at the moment as all trains running on this line would have to slow to 65 km/h In the area leading onto the line)

How many passengers use Ardeer and Deer Park stations, looking on google maps, the stations look rundown and neglected (as If they get little use)
Ardeer has no car parking, Deer Park has limited, despite their closeness to the city.

Do park and ride passengers, favour stations on the Sunbury line (due to extra services) ?

When regular Wyndham Vale services start up, will these breath new life Into these two stations (doubling the service frequency)
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

My guess to alow something from the up line to depart in a down direction at the junction without the use of a caution order
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.

Do park and ride passengers, favour stations on the Sunbury line (due to extra services) ?
Nightfire

I believe they do.
When regular Wyndham Vale services start up, will these breath new life Into these two stations (doubling the service frequency)
Nightfire

It could, providing that Geelong trains don't run express through them.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
It could, providing that Geelong trains don't run express through them.
railblogger

Geelong trains wont stop at Deer Park or Ardeer, probably unlikely to stop at Tarneit also.

Local services to and from Wyndham Vale would serve the Inner West commuter stations.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
From http://www.victorianrailways.net/signaling/2posdwarf/2posdwar.html


"It appears that a purple light was prefered instead of a red light for ground mounted signals to avoid confusion with red hand signals in shunting yards."


This could be the reason why light is purple, although im not sure. Hope this helps.
Dman66

Ah, okay, that makes sense. Thank you for that Smile
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The speed of points being installed on the RRL at Sunshine 40kmh, Robinson's Red Jct 65 kmh, West Werribee Jct 80 km reflect whether the track layout is the final one.
With Robinson's Rd with two extra electric tracks to Melton the final junction is very different including a rail over rail flyover to take the Down RRL Ballarat track over the Up and Down Geelong RRL Lines plus grade separation at Robinson's red as there will ultimately be 4 tracks. In the final layout the interim 65 km diverge moves towards Manor become the straight road, and the 65 km diverges will be for the Ballarat RRL leg.

At West Werribee Jct this is the final layout so line speed for RRL and 80 km diverge to from Werribee.

Read earlier posts PGE 46 this thread re likely staged timing for rest of RRL opening.

Currently the BG lines between Spion Kop Jct and Down end of Nth Me lb flyover are not open to traffic.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Well that clears that up, thank you Richter170 for that information. I wasn't aware they were removing the Bi-directional ability of that stretch of line, but it sort of makes sense now that I think about it.

As for Deer Park and Ardeer stations, Ardeer sees a few passengers on most trains that stop there, but not all that many, Deer Park on the other hand sees quite a few more. Every time I have been on a train that has stopped there, I've actually been surprised at how many are getting on/ off, no doubt helped along by the new developments in nearby Derrimut.

As for the appearance on Google maps, Deer Park has seen a refurbishment since those images were taken and is now in pretty good shape for what it is, new platform surfaces, extra lighting and a new waiting room/ shelter as well as a properly sealed car park. Also during this latest shutdown, the level crossing at Station St has been duplicated meaning there are now two carriageways (total of 4 lanes) of road traffic crossing the line rather than the inadequate single 2 lane carriageway we had before. A bit of a wasted oppurtunity really, that crossing could have been grade seperated instead, especially now that more trains will be utilising the line, but that wasn't budgeted for I guess.Rolling Eyes
  Some rail man Junior Train Controller

Location: CIA Headquarters in Washington D.C
Sunshine station right now reminds me of Glenfield station in South-Western Sydney
  richter170 Locomotive Driver

What would be needed to bring the North line up to 160 km/h class 1 ?
(little need at the moment as all trains running on this line would have to slow to 65 km/h In the area leading onto the line)

In regards to the above, Class 1 track is 60kg rail mounted on top of deep concrete sleepers, and these sleepers are fitted with the butterfly clips which are not easy to remove once clipped on. Used on all RFR lines.

Where the RFR was not upgraded under the 2004/2005 program, such as the North line between Deer Park West and Sunshine the timber sleepers were retained.

There was a huge amount of money spent on complete elimination of timber sleepers on the Ballarat line around 2010, these sleepers are not quite as big as the RFR 160km ones. The rail is secured using pandrol biscuits and e-clips.

The areas treated were, Sunshine to Deer Park West (North Line), Bacchus Marsh KP51 to KP 71/72 up the top of Ingleston Bank, and KP 111 to 113 just prior to arrival in Ballarat.

The ride does change as the rail is also older 53kg where the timber sleepers were originally retained.

The timber sleepers from this project were then moved over to the old Bungaree line to give it a tie cycle and the rest to other locations on the V/Line network.

This is the only location where the Ballarat - Melbourne train operates over timber sleepers on the RFR except through points.

Class 2 track is generally 47/53kg rail mounted on either low profile concrete sleepers or well maintained wood sleepers.

Cheers Al.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
This change highlights the need for the Deer Park West to Melton line to be duplicated.

65 km/h points at Geelong junction seams rather lame, the use of 100 + km/h swing nose points would be more appropriate.

What would be needed to bring the North line up to 160 km/h class 1 ?
(little need at the moment as all trains running on this line would have to slow to 65 km/h In the area leading onto the line)

How many passengers use Ardeer and Deer Park stations, looking on google maps, the stations look rundown and neglected (as If they get little use)
Ardeer has no car parking, Deer Park has limited, despite their closeness to the city.

Do park and ride passengers, favour stations on the Sunbury line (due to extra services) ?

When regular Wyndham Vale services start up, will these breathe new life Into these two stations (doubling the service frequency)
Nightfire

Ardeer station has changed little in over 20 years save for a newer version of a bus stop type shelter, and a MYKI reader. Patronage appears to be stagnant there.

Deer Park station has been completely overhauled since Google maps with a new station waiting area and a newly asphalted platform and large car park. As Deer Park station is located to an adjacent high density housing project, it gets many more pax than it once did AND the patronage is growing.

There is no point in upgrading the north line for 160 KPH running due to from a standing start, a VLocity leaving Sunshine and running express doesn't reach 160 KPH until about Robinsons Rd, around 1Km short of Deer Park West Junction. There is also a 95KPH speed restriction on the north line at the Fitzgerald Rd crossing due to sight issues I believe.

Mike.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Does anyone know what the final junction layout will be at Sunshine ?

Going off the great photos on Vicsig

The junction for the goods line off the Sunbury line has been moved towards Footscray, will this permit the Installation of two crossovers to give access from the goods lines from Tottenham onto the Ballarat line via RRL platforms at Sunshine station ?

Will the present Ballarat line junction off the Sunbury line on the down end of Sunshine station be removed ?

Will any connection between the RRL lines and the goods line to Brooklyn and grain terminal ?
  merlin Chief Commissioner

Location: North East Adelaide
Yes, would be interested in seeing an updated track diagram of the southern cross-footscray area...
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

I second that. Track diagram would be great.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Does anyone know what the final junction layout will be at Sunshine ?

Going off the great photos on Vicsig

The junction for the goods line off the Sunbury line has been moved towards Footscray, will this permit the Installation of two crossovers to give access from the goods lines from Tottenham onto the Ballarat line via RRL platforms at Sunshine station ?

Will the present Ballarat line junction off the Sunbury line on the down end of Sunshine station be removed ?

Will any connection between the RRL lines and the goods line to Brooklyn and grain terminal ?
Nightfire

I went on an excursion to Albion & back the other day to check out the updated works. I think I can answer some of your questions.

There will be a connection between Sunbury tracks & RRL tracks up from Sunshine but before the freight line connections called the Sunshine Dual Ladder. There are some pictures on the RRL website of this track arrangement being constructed: http://www.regionalraillink.vic.gov.au/news/images?result_92818_result_page=8

I would assume that the current Ballarat line junction on the immediate down end of Sunshine will be removed soon, as the RRL platforms will be the new Sunshine platforms 3 & 4 - RRL & freight trains will still be able to access the Sunbury tracks up from Sunshine via the Dual-Ladder (pictures via the above link). This is the photo from VicSig that indicates the future alignment of Bendigo tracks & Ballarat/Geelong tracks into Sunshine (future) platforms 3 & 4: http://www.vicsig.net/photo/17738

I would also assume that there will a connection between the RRL lines & the Brooklyn goods line/grain terminal. This photo from VicSig indicates that a wide area of land has been cleared in order to build a track junction of some sort. Certainly the grain terminal tracks have been truncated south for the time being.  The RRL tracks from this location (which is just on the up of future Sunshine platforms 3 & 4) will curve away to the east following the existing Sunbury tracks. The Sunshine Dual-Ladder track arrangement is also up from this location: http://www.vicsig.net/photo/17725
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I went on an excursion to Albion & back the other day to check out the updated works. I think I can answer some of your questions.

There will be a connection between Sunbury tracks & RRL tracks up from Sunshine but before the freight line connections called the Sunshine Dual Ladder. There are some pictures on the RRL website of this track arrangement being constructed: http://www.regionalraillink.vic.gov.au/news/images?result_92818_result_page=8

I would assume that the current Ballarat line junction on the immediate down end of Sunshine will be removed soon, as the RRL platforms will be the new Sunshine platforms 3 & 4 - RRL & freight trains will still be able to access the Sunbury tracks up from Sunshine via the Dual-Ladder (pictures via the above link). This is the photo from VicSig that indicates the future alignment of Bendigo tracks & Ballarat/Geelong tracks into Sunshine (future) platforms 3 & 4: http://www.vicsig.net/photo/17738

I would also assume that there will a connection between the RRL lines & the Brooklyn goods line/grain terminal. This photo from VicSig indicates that a wide area of land has been cleared in order to build a track junction of some sort. Certainly the grain terminal tracks have been truncated south for the time being. The RRL tracks from this location (which is just on the up of future Sunshine platforms 3 & 4) will curve away to the east following the existing Sunbury tracks. The Sunshine Dual-Ladder track arrangement is also up from this location: http://www.vicsig.net/photo/17725

jdekorte

So will the Sunshine dual ladder connect the bg goods line ?

Or will a freight train movement from the Ballarat line into Tottenham yard (vv) be Impossible without a setback move along the Sunbury line (If that would even be permitted)
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
So will the Sunshine dual ladder connect the bg goods line ?

Or will a freight train movement from the Ballarat line into Tottenham yard (vv) be Impossible without a setback move along the Sunbury line (If that would even be permitted)
Nightfire

The Sunshine Dual Ladder which was shown being constructed in the RRL photos is the connection between the RRL lines & the Sunbury lines. This connection is up (towards the city) from Sunshine station. There is a new connection just up from the Dual Ladder which connects from the Sunbury lines to the freight lines which link to the Tottenham yards. So when this is all finished it will be possible for a freight train to proceed from the RRL lines to the Tottenham yards although in the process it would block the Sunbury lines while it crosses from one to the other. These new track junctions are, I think, between Sunshine station & the Stony Creek bridge - distances are a bit hard to judge when riding trains and looking out the window. I assume VicSig will update the track diagrams when all is finished.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

I have read back through this thread, but just to clarify, with normal passenger operations, all V/Line trains will be using Sunshine platforms 3 and 4 with a connection provided from RRL to the Sunbury/Bendigo tracks on the DOWN side of Sunshine. I am assuming the duel ladder being talked about is for freight operations only into Tottenham?

Will Geelong and Ballarat trains be able to access platforms 1 and 2 once this work is finished or will that connection be removed? If this is the case, any hints about how a future Melton electrification would be done?

Also between Sunshine and Southern Cross are there ANY crossovers with suburban traffic left? Any electrified sections?

If this is all the case, I guess it is an improvement over the current arrangement, but it is still a complex mix of operations at the Sunshine end with Tottenham access thrown in.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I have read back through this thread, but just to clarify, with normal passenger operations, all V/Line trains will be using Sunshine platforms 3 and 4 with a connection provided from RRL to the Sunbury/Bendigo tracks on the DOWN side of Sunshine. I am assuming the duel ladder being talked about is for freight operations only into Tottenham?

Will Geelong and Ballarat trains be able to access platforms 1 and 2 once this work is finished or will that connection be removed? If this is the case, any hints about how a future Melton electrification would be done?

Also between Sunshine and Southern Cross are there ANY crossovers with suburban traffic left? Any electrified sections?

If this is all the case, I guess it is an improvement over the current arrangement, but it is still a complex mix of operations at the Sunshine end with Tottenham access thrown in.
Mr. Lane

Yes there is the connection to from the Sunbury/Bendigo Lines to the RRL line on the down side of Sunshine so that trains from Bendigo can access the future platforms 3 & 4 at Sunshine. I've copied links to some early alignment maps which are published on the RRL website - to a certain extent they are accurate but obviously since they were published, somethings were changed. Here is the map of the (then proposed) alignments to the north of Sunshine station showing the Bendigo RRL separating from the Ballarat/Geelong RRL: http://www.regionalraillink.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/31620/RRL_Section1_Maps_Map36of38.pdf

If you go by this map and by the photos on VicSig, Balllarat/Geelong trains will not be able to access platforms 1 & w at Sunshine in the future.

On the south side of Sunshine it's going to be a little more complex and the track layout won't be fully known until it's built. The VicSig photo I posted earlier shows cleared land and the goods lines truncated to the south. The Sunshine Dual Ladder is a connection between the RRL lines and the electric lines - on the electric lines there is a further connection with the freight lines to Tottenham. This map from the RRL website was an early indication of alignments however there is now evidently a dual connection with the electric lines from the RRL lines, not a single connection as indicated in this map. Again, we won't know the full layout until it's built: http://www.regionalraillink.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/31664/RRL_Section1_Maps_Map33of38.pdf

Beyond the connections on the up from Sunshine, the only other connection between electric tracks & the RRL is on the up from South Kensington which is currently in use by Geelong trains. There are no electrified sections of the RRL although I believe provision has been made.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The likely final layout at Sunshine by what is visible to date appears to be  :

From the Down side  two  RRL tracks (platforms 3/4) then two Metro tracks (platforms 1 & 2) .

The two RRL tracks continuing as the straight road on the Bendigo leg joining into the Metro tracks on the Up side of Anderson Rd with 65kmh turnouts.  The Ballarat leg as the diverging move immediately at the Down end of Sunshine platforms 3/4.

The ladder road at the Up end (for Goods trains) links the RRL lines across the Metro track pair to the Tottenham Yard lines.

The single track from Brooklyn (Goods) would join in as a single turnout and crossover between the RRL lines immediately on the Up end of platforms 3/4 .

With these connections there would no longer be a need for connection between the Ballarat leg and platforms 1/2, which would appear to go .

When Melton is electrified the intention is to build two new Metro tracks from the down end of Sunshine on the North side of the existing RRL track pair out to Robinsons Rd.  As such Sunshine junction would require a major rearrangement at the Down end including at least one flyover for rail traffic to flow smoothly .  Again the Down end of Sunshine appears to be only an interim and not the final track layout .
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Thanks both jdekorte and kuldalai for that info, this is roughly how I understood it from prior reading.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Hi,

I'll add my 10 cents worth.

With the latest shutdown bi-directional operating was elimimated from Deer Park west to Sunshine.

All trains on the up from Ballarat must slow to 65kph at Kp 25 for the Junction at KP 23 and divert onto the former north line which is 130kph speed limited.

Trains from sunshine to Ballarat have to operate on the new down line or former South line. Which was the 160kph or fast line.

So the little dwarf on the former north line is for shunting moves into the boral siding if the set arrived from Ballarat for example from what I can fiqure out. Not exactly clear on this.

So one negative is these 65 kph points at Deer Park. I still think they should be at least 80kph to avoid slowing every Ballarat to Melbourne train down.

At the Geelong junction all trains will have to operate at 65kph in either direction.

Cheers Al.
richter170


These speed reductions appear to be quite absurd. Why should you have to slow to 65kph? The points should be set up for 100 kph. Is this bad design, penny pinching, or both?
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

Penny pinching would be my guess. On the broad gauge I can only think of 3 places with 80kph points; Sunbury, Packenham & Westall
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
These speed reductions appear to be quite absurd. Why should you have to slow to 65kph? The points should be set up for 100 kph. Is this bad design, penny pinching, or both?
Duncs


is it the fact of the points being crappy or the absurdity of removing flexibility in the network and forcing trains to diverge and the not upgrade the points.  seriously.

can someone confirm the line is dual track from sunshine to the new junction of the rrl?
  Bullucked Assistant Commissioner

Penny pinching would be my guess. On the broad gauge I can only think of 3 places with 80kph points; Sunbury, Packenham & Westall
ab123

You can add Laverton to your list

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