New intercity commuter trains

 
  Showtime Chief Train Controller

I look forward to some luggage space on the run to Sydney.
The present situation is rediculous.
The Guard tells us not to leave our suitcases in aisles so we put them on the seats in front.
Then the cars crowd up and everyone stares daggers at you until you take them off the seat and block the aisles again.
Another delay that is not related to the new cars but will still be a problem causing delays for them is that many people use the express trains as standard commuter trains.
We often watch people get on and off again 2 stations later.
Real express trains shouldn't be stopping at so many stations out of Sydney

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  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
I'm glad that Glad's has acknowledge the OSCar is not the way to go.
I am not sure if the channel 7 story is just creative journalism.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/video/watch/23337925/new-trains-for-sydney/
"they are sleek, fast and coming to Sydney..."
I like "cafes"....   I know I could do with a coffee somewhere from Lithgow to Sydney, but it would be a compromise how much space something like that would take up. I would imagine that may just turn into a coffee machine.

Powerpoints could be handy but my laptop seems to last.

The comment by Government being "faster" .... not sure if that is a throw away line or if they are planning to do some decent track work to bring the speed back up as I gather the current V Sets are only limited by safety concerns of the track.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
The comment by Government being "faster" .... not sure if that is a throw away line or if they are planning to do some decent track work to bring the speed back up as I gather the current V Sets are only limited by safety concerns of the track.
johnboy

Speed limits take into account a number of factors, only one of which is the actual track condition. Signalling sighting distances is a big part of this. The power/braking curve of the train is likely a factor in the different speed boards (ie the yellow/blue/white) ones, as is the type of bogies used (hence why there used to be yellow/white, as XPT/Xplorers have faster bogies). So I'd imagine with a modern train, using the current perway, one could be able to get modest speed increases. Perhaps not a dramatic time saving, but every minute counts...
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
For the record its an smh article. I shared it as Canberra times (by changing the domain name in the url) simply to circumvent the paywall as CT doesn't have one. Smile
kg3000

off topic but the SMH paywall has disappeared. I complained bitterly when it was imposed as I had had a delivery subscription to the SMH for about 50 years but obviously not after I moved to NZ. However I used my sister's log -in as I was blocked after 10 downloads in a month. But that no longer happens.
On topic, it is good to see a suitable replacement for the much loved V-sets. I hope they are in 4 car sets. For many years I caught the 6.50am from Woodford to the city on a Sunday and it was an 8 car (I guess for balancing reasons) I was often the only one in my car until at least Penrith, more likely Blacktown and it felt unsafe.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The comment by Government being "faster" .... not sure if that is a throw away line or if they are planning to do some decent track work to bring the speed back up as I gather the current V Sets are only limited by safety concerns of the track.
johnboy


Whatever they get it will almost certainly have a higher top speed than the V Sets.  Doesn't mean anyone will get to work any sooner though.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Whatever they get it will almost certainly have a higher top speed than the V Sets. Doesn't mean anyone will get to work any sooner though.
djf01

A staff update from Rob Mason came around today and there was mention of the new trains having 50% more capacity due to more cars per train. That makes me suspect that the contract will be for single deck trains but if NSW Trains intends to increase the number of cars in a set then they better get cracking on lengthening platforms up the Blue Mountains.

Or maybe they intend to run the longer trains only to major centres to speed up travel times and only lengthen those platforms and run shorter trains to inter-mediate stops.

The only problem is that we have not had much experience purchasing off the shelf products with Melbourne the only rail service to source suburban sets overseas. And didn't they have a few problems with one particular batch and they are far simpler than an inter-urban train?

Consideration should be given to ditching EMUs and instead think about non-powered cars with a driving cab in the end car and hauled by an electro-diesel locomotive which means it could travel beyond the electrified network. I have traveled on the Surfliner cars used in California and something similar would be ideal as they incorporate a coffee bar and are cheaper to purchase.
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
are these trains designed to replace the xpt fleet?  from the images on the network they look great.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Please allow it to be these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD

or even these which are common in Eastern Germany where I lived

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBAG_Class_612
Minardiau





These would be good too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Double-deck_Coach

Just one problem, they need a Loco at one end (DB operate them all over Germany)!!
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Hmm, why on earth does it include my 3 lines inside the original quote - i did place it below the box.
  Johnny_Walton Railcorp Crash Test Dummy No.1

Location: Flemington Maintenance Centre
OH Raichase!

Rewind your memory back to about 2001.
We had all these discussions rumours and bickering then.
The result?
Very disappointing for the long distance commuter!
Lets hope the end product 18 years later is a little more fit for purpose this time?  Rolling EyesSmile

Jono.
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
are these trains designed to replace the xpt fleet? from the images on the network they look great.
JimYarin

No.  Read some of the newspaper reports or the press release.  They are to replace and supplement the existing interurban fleet.  They will use overhead electric traction.

A staff update from Rob Mason came around today and there was mention of the new trains having 50% more capacity due to more cars per train. That makes me suspect that the contract will be for single deck trains but if NSW Trains intends to increase the number of cars in a set then they better get cracking on lengthening platforms up the Blue Mountains.
nswtrains


When people talk about single deck trains having more capacity, that's because:

- they allow more carriage floor area for people to stand relative to the carriage floor area occupied by seats; and

- they expect to run more trains because they expect slower dwell times at stations because there is more door space relative to carriage floor area.

Neither of these are attractive or particularly pertinent to interurban operations - it isn't acceptable to expect people to stand for an hour or more, there aren't that many stops to incur dwell time and beyond the periphery of the Sydney Trains network you aren't even remotely dwell time constrained.

None of the images released in conjunction with the announcement show single deck trains.  They are all clearly double deck commuter trains.

I frankly don't care whether the train have one, two or twenty decks, but I don't understand where this "suspicion" of single deck trains comes from.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

A staff update from Rob Mason came around today and there was mention of the new trains having 50% more capacity due to more cars per train. That makes me suspect that the contract will be for single deck trains but if NSW Trains intends to increase the number of cars in a set then they better get cracking on lengthening platforms up the Blue Mountains.

Or maybe they intend to run the longer trains only to major centres to speed up travel times and only lengthen those platforms and run shorter trains to inter-mediate stops.
nswtrains


Or the cars are shorter.

I've suggested this on this site in the past, but IMHO they ought to be looking at an articulated DD design.  Take the existing H set design, ditch the standing areas, half the doors and half the bogies, and you get a lot more seats for the same train $.
  Rad Locomotive Fireman

Location: Gerringong NSW
A staff update from Rob Mason came around today and there was mention of the new trains having 50% more capacity due to more cars per train.

It wouldn't hard to increase capacity out of Kiama. Apart from a few peak services, nearly all others are still 4 cars only.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Consideration should be given to ditching EMUs and instead think about non-powered cars with a driving cab in the end car and hauled by an electro-diesel locomotive which means it could travel beyond the electrified network. I have traveled on the Surfliner cars used in California and something similar would be ideal as they incorporate a coffee bar and are cheaper to purchase.
nswtrains

They're called push-pull trains. These ones will run at nearly 200 km/h:

http://news.europawire.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/%C5%A0koda-Transportation-signed-EUR-110M-contract-with-Deutsche-Bahn-to-delivery-six-modern-train-sets-to-operate-on-Nurnberg-Ingolstadt-%E2%80%93-Munich-railway-track-580x420.jpg

http://www.railcolor.net/imgs/content/artist_impression_skoda109Edbregio.jpg

Instinctively I prefer EMUs, but when you think about it a little, with a loco changeover you can run the same train through to Nowra, Bathurst (maybe even the Goulburn train with a diesel), or to Broadmeadow and then diesel to e.g. Maitland. It would more flexibly meet the actual travel market without being artificially constrained by wires and having to have extra fleets of DMUs. Being on the same comfortable train would probably encourage some people to get out of their car travel too.

As for speed and our track profiles, I'd love somebody to tell me one day why trains run at an average speed of little over 50 km/h over the south coast line, with its favourable (indeed near-straight) profile over 80% of its length. And don't mention single track. Logically, if you can get a train out of its section quicker, the space becomes available earlier for an opposing train and you can get more services on the line.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

They're called push-pull trains. These ones will run at nearly 200 km/h:

http://news.europawire.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/%C5%A0koda-Transportation-signed-EUR-110M-contract-with-Deutsche-Bahn-to-delivery-six-modern-train-sets-to-operate-on-Nurnberg-Ingolstadt-%E2%80%93-Munich-railway-track-580x420.jpg

http://www.railcolor.net/imgs/content/artist_impression_skoda109Edbregio.jpg

Instinctively I prefer EMUs, but when you think about it a little, with a loco changeover you can run the same train through to Nowra, Bathurst (maybe even the Goulburn train with a diesel), or to Broadmeadow and then diesel to e.g. Maitland. It would more flexibly meet the actual travel market without being artificially constrained by wires and having to have extra fleets of DMUs. Being on the same comfortable train would probably encourage some people to get out of their car travel too.

As for speed and our track profiles, I'd love somebody to tell me one day why trains run at an average speed of little over 50 km/h over the south coast line, with its favourable (indeed near-straight) profile over 80% of its length. And don't mention single track. Logically, if you can get a train out of its section quicker, the space becomes available earlier for an opposing train and you can get more services on the line.
tonyp

If you use electro-diesels there is no need to change locos and the pantographs automatically go down/up at the start/end of the wires. Cost might be the militating factor as maybe only the Blue Mountains wiring will require renewal in the short. However, 1500 VDC is not that great for longer distance routes so the cost of upgrading to 25KVAC is avoided by electro-diesels.

There are many avenues to explore before the a firm commitment is made to sourcing a particular type of train from a particular manufacturer. I am also not convinced a suitable off the shelf train is available that meets NSW standards. Isn't all the Euro stuff aluminum and USA sourced rolling stock too large for our loading gauge.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
These would be good too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Double-deck_Coach

Just one problem, they need a Loco at one end (DB operate them all over Germany)!!
mikesyd

And neighboring countries including Switzerland.

They run with loco fixed at one end and a drivers cab at the other (push one way, pull back), unless train is very long then there can be a loco at each end. I've heard comments in this group that this is fine for routes that are not as tight as maybe experience in Sydney basin, but I don't know how relevant or true this is and as I said they operate in Switzerland.

I think the Germans got this part right as there is only one set of rolling stock and their use either diesel or electric locos depending on the route. Perhaps however the 1500VDC is a limited factor for Sydney preventing this style of fast operation? Also more driving axles I would have thought means more traction and more get up and go from a stop?
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

And neighboring countries including Switzerland.

They run with loco fixed at one end and a drivers cab at the other (push one way, pull back), unless train is very long then there can be a loco at each end. I've heard comments in this group that this is fine for routes that are not as tight as maybe experience in Sydney basin, but I don't know how relevant or true this is and as I said they operate in Switzerland.

I think the Germans got this part right as there is only one set of rolling stock and their use either diesel or electric locos depending on the route. Perhaps however the 1500VDC is a limited factor for Sydney preventing this style of fast operation? Also more driving axles I would have thought means more traction and more get up and go from a stop?
RTT_Rules

They are very common in the USA, usually with a diesel at one end but on Long Island and maybe New Jersey electro diesels have recently been introduced. The 1500VDC is definitely a limiting factor in Sydney but it would be too expensive to change the system over to AC traction.

Another problem in obtaining off the shelf trains from Europe is most are configured for rail level platforms. I wonder whether off the shelf is just a political thought bubble or some investigation has been undertaken and the government has something firm in mind.

Going on the number of poorly thought out thought bubbles floated recently by all sorts of politicians I rather fear we might just be dealing with a thought bubble and nothing more. When they really look at what is available, manufacturing bespoke designed trains (either here or overseas) might be what we end up with. We shall see.
  Showtime Chief Train Controller

Electro-diesel?
Gee, we could have just thrown a genset onto the back of an 86 and had them already for a few hundred grand Smile
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
A staff update from Rob Mason came around today and there was mention of the new trains having 50% more capacity due to more cars per train. That makes me suspect that the contract will be for single deck trains but if NSW Trains intends to increase the number of cars in a set then they better get cracking on lengthening platforms up the Blue Mountains.

Or maybe they intend to run the longer trains only to major centres to speed up travel times and only lengthen those platforms and run shorter trains to inter-mediate stops.

nswtrains

This is where the Minister's politics and common sense does not mix.
The Government is clear that there will be 65 sets... or 520 cars. So the Minister has been told 'every train' will be 8 cars (65 * 8 = 520) and hence Rob Mason's office is seen to state that since there will be no more 4 car trains, then we shall have extra capacity.

Hopefully between now and roll out time that that they will wake up to the fact we would look pretty silly sending 8 car trains 24/7 to Lithgow and Kiama.


In the end, I would suspect the new train will be of similar size to the V Set as there is still that limitation in the Mountains. There is no plan for loco push/pull. The budget is only allowing for $5m / car which is not much when that has to incorporate planning, roll out, maintenance set up on top of the actual car constructions.

There is no plan for these trains to go to Nowra/Bathurst/Goulburn - that is not the intention. There intention is only to replace the current V Sets and OSCars and they will be EMUs.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
There is no plan for these trains to go to Nowra/Bathurst/Goulburn - that is not the intention. There intention is only to replace the current V Sets and OSCars and they will be EMUs.
Jim K


That's a little bit short-sighted considering they will have a life of 30-40 years+. In that time the brown stuff might have hit the fan about oil and the Feds (not Abbott obviously) will be madly electrifying all the interstate freight lines - on AC. The DC obviously won't be extended, except (hopefully) to Nowra.

So I'd hope they'd at least consider incorporating space for transformers so that they can be converted to dual current in the future. Also the growth of Sydney and its satellite areas during that time will mean that the limits of the DC wires will become increasingly artificial in terms of activity/population catchments served and they'll end up with heavy patronage still aboard the trains at the point where the changeover to small DMUs occurs, and in fact they'll need those 8 (or whatever number) cars to go further.

I really think they should look ahead a little more to scenarios that quite likely will arise during the life of the sets. Too much assumption that things will stay as they are now.
  UpperQuad Locomotive Fireman

Location: 184.8 miles to Sydney
That's a little bit short-sighted considering they will have a life of 30-40 years+. In that time the brown stuff might have hit the fan about oil and the Feds (not Abbott obviously) will be madly electrifying all the interstate freight lines - on AC. The DC obviously won't be extended, except (hopefully) to Nowra.

So I'd hope they'd at least consider incorporating space for transformers so that they can be converted to dual current in the future.
tonyp

Get serious. 25kv was planned for 86 class, which didn’t live to see it. The proposed new trains are needed for the system we have today. Let’s hope they are standard gauge, and will fit through existing tunnels!
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Get serious. 25kv was planned for 86 class, which didn’t live to see it. The proposed new trains are needed for the system we have today. Let’s hope they are standard gauge, and will fit through existing tunnels!
UpperQuad

Your foresight is very encouraging. So everything is going to stay as it is?

For a start, the trains won't be seriously on line for about 8 years. They'll then be in service for at least another 30. That's 2054. In that time, there's going to be a lot of growth along the Nowra, Goulburn, Bathurst and Maitland corridors. On top of that, the drift to public transport use already evident in the cities is going to spread along these corridors as fuel costs and congestion take their toll on road travel. It's not going to be the system we have today, it will have a lot more demand on it.

All I'm saying is: think ahead.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
That's a little bit short-sighted considering they will have a life of 30-40 years+. In that time the brown stuff might have hit the fan about oil and the Feds (not Abbott obviously) will be madly electrifying all the interstate freight lines - on AC. The DC obviously won't be extended, except (hopefully) to Nowra.
tonyp

My understanding is the M/H and A sets are convertable to 25kV AC should we ever go down that road.

Heck, even leaving the suburban network as 1500v DC and having the interstate lines at 25kV AC and running dual voltage trains wouldn't be impossible, I understand this is common in Europe?

Hopefully between now and roll out time that that they will wake up to the fact we would look pretty silly sending 8 car trains 24/7 to Lithgow and Kiama.

Last night I was driving home from Lithgow to Sydney as all of the peak hour trains were passing me on the highway. The first train was encountered between Mt Victoria and Bell. Empty. The second one was seen near Medlow Bath. Empty. I figured "fair enough, most people probably only go as far as Katoomba". Lawson. Empty. Finally one at Faulconbridge. Empty. I imagine these trains are only 8-cars to service all of the suburban commuters, unless 8 V Set cars worth of people alighted between Emu Plains and Springwood!

Why not boot the suburban passengers off the urbans altogether and run express trains out of Sydney terminal with suburban stock? Heck, run an OSCar Central, Redfern, Parramatta, Blacktown, Penrith and all to Springwood, then have a four car V Set that is first stop Springwood... Why we persist in sending empty trains all around the network for no reason, it's just a chance for the scum to rip out seats, scratch windows and generally make the train unpleasant for everyone who pays for their ticket...
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
Your foresight is very encouraging. So everything is going to stay as it is?

For a start, the trains won't be seriously on line for about 8 years. They'll then be in service for at least another 30. That's 2054. In that time, there's going to be a lot of growth along the Nowra, Goulburn, Bathurst and Maitland corridors. On top of that, the drift to public transport use already evident in the cities is going to spread along these corridors as fuel costs and congestion take their toll on road travel. It's not going to be the system we have today, it will have a lot more demand on it.

All I'm saying is: think ahead.
tonyp

I think you will find that people here agree with your last statement, and I wish the power was on to Bomaderry and Goulburn etc, but we are stating the facts. The decision on these trains is made by people who can only think of the next one or two elections, after that they really don't care.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong

For a start, the trains won't be seriously on line for about 8 years.
tonyp

I assume you are going by this state's reputation of projects on time?

The first train is suppose to roll out in 4 years and project completed in 10 years.... which does seem a bit keen, espeically they have not even got to the drawing board on train design. I wonder if Sporting Bet are taking odds on that

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