Mud hole problems returing on the northeast

 
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
In keeping with local talk up here and recent media coverage mud hole issues are starting to become another problem once again.

How many speed restrictions of any are now on the northeast and is ARTC doing anything specific about the individual issues are are they being addressed only in then programme which is covered below.

Mcgowan is the best think that has happened up here. She is consistently across this issue.

Vline train times do not appear to have been affected recently.

http://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/more-mudholes-on-v-line-albury-track-unacceptable-mcgowan

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  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
ARTC is set to be privatised in the next 12 months - I don't think the new owners are going to be particularly interested in spending the big $$$ required to fix the problem.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Another privatisation !
We had them seemingly by the dozen in Victoria some years ago, and I am yet to see how it has been of any benefit to me - an average person.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Why didn't this go on to the North East thread Question


In six months when there's another Border Mail story about the mud-holes returning are you going to create another new thread..Question



BTW...its 'returning'
  Bethungra Train Controller

ARTC is set to be privatised in the next 12 months - I don't think the new owners are going to be particularly interested in spending the big $$$ required to fix the problem.
don_dunstan


If they are not planning to fix the railway line between the two largest cities in Australian they should be closed down.  How ridiculous.
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

They do band-aid repairs..
Dig it up, fill it with ballast.
Rain comes in.. Train goes over it.. Mud slowly comes through again...
Cycle repeats but it just gets worse.


How to fix?
Easy... yet costly.
Rip it all up and do it all again, properly.
  QSB6.7 Chief Train Controller

Location: Going off the rails on a crazy train.
Seems that the NE gauge conversion was a perfect example on how not do to so.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Seems that the NE gauge conversion was a perfect example on how not do to so.
QSB6.7



SSSSIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHHHH
, does ANYONE read anything I write............

For the fourteenth time, The NE reguaging WAS NOT a track upgrade, it was JUST a regauaging. ARTC was simply not given the funds to do anything but shift one rail in 6.5 inchs, fit new sleepers and redo the bridges and the signalling.

ARTC is currrently half way through a four years ballast rehabilitation program. Its would be almost certain that the reason for it to take four years is funding.

If the Australian public wishes to have good services the MUST pay for it by a decent tax rate. Its apparent that most wish for lower taxes in that case we HAVE TO PUT UP with poor services. Theres no other alternative.

A point I will make if one wish's for the current establishment to take you seriously you simply have to get your facts correct. If you feed them rubbish, they will simply laugh in your face.

Why am I bothering to post info for no one to read....................

woodford
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I understand your frustration, woodford, but some of us do read, and greatly appreciate, your writings. At least we know your comments are authoritative. Please keep them coming.
  Bethungra Train Controller

I understand your frustration, woodford, but some of us do read, and greatly appreciate, your writings. At least we know your comments are authoritative. Please keep them coming.
Valvegear

Of course we do.  It is important to also remember some of the postings on here are quite technical.  Not everyone using this site has a background in railway engineering.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Many thanks for the support,

This sort of thing makes me absolutely scream with frustration, its been REPEATEDLY stated in these pages that the regauge was just that and regular Railpage readers by now should know this.

A big problem I have found is that most people have a preconsieved idea of what something should be like and will ignore all evidence that goes against this preconception. ARTC particular suffers badly from this, with most considering they are hopeless and a lot people will simply ignore or discount any reports that conflict with this view. This is NOT I may say the way to the truth.

The truth is the truth even if it goes against what someone thinks.

I go to great lengths to submerge my own preconceptions in order to get at the real truth, I regularly wonder why I bother when it is clear most of the world does not work this way.

At the meetings ARTC ran along the line a good portion of the complaints were incorrect to some extent, and there was lot of heated feeling, a lot of this resulting from misunderstandings. In the end this gets the complaintents no where. When tackling someone like John Fullerton a way better result will be obtained if you speak from a strong position of accurate information.

woodford
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.


SSSSIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHHHH
, does ANYONE read anything I write............

For the fourteenth time, The NE reguaging WAS NOT a track upgrade, it was JUST a regauaging.

Why am I bothering to post info for no one to read....................

woodford
woodford

Ahh yes, did you say fortieth time woodford.
I think you and Kuldalai, might need some counselling.   Shocked
As has been said, plenty read and take in what you've reported on.
You may have to screen your responses' and only reply to the ones who are asking pertinent questions.
It appears some read the last post and respond to that, without reading through the posts, from where they last visited.

BigShunter.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
Many thanks for the support,
This sort of thing makes me absolutely scream with frustration, its been REPEATEDLY stated in these pages that the regauge was just that and regular Railpage readers by now should know this. ...
woodford
woodford


Ditto, ditto, ditto! Woodford.

1. Sleeper condition was ARTC's greatest concern on both sides of the border. The bulk purchases of concrete sleepers was economically prudent based on whole of life cost. This strategy was politically supported/funded as it created manufacturing jobs in three regional centres, including a new sleeper factory at Bomen NSW.
2. ARTC previously indicated that ballast and drainage issues were widespread across NSW/Vic. In the absence of specific guvmnt funding this was to be addressed through normal maintenance.
3. ARTC were never contracted to rebuild the NE line. They undertook to replace the sleepers and come back later to 'fix' the ballast. ARTC also contributed most of the money!
4. Drought busting / 100 yr record breaking rain exacerbated the issue. ARTC initiated the Ballast Remediation Program. However that program is mostly internally funded which constrains its scope and speed.
5. There are a few years left of the BRP. It could be accelerated with more guvmnt money. Again it comes back to funding.

The could'a, should'a, would'a brigade couldn't do better. It's why neither state or federal guvmnts have taken action against ARTC.
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

Just a little side note, looking at the North East broad gauge, there is starting to be quite a bit some mud coming through especially the Wallan - Craigieburn section. Comparing some sections of BG to the SG next to it, the SG looks in much better condition.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Could we please ask the moderator to shutdown the parallel running threads on this topic. Woodfood and others have reported extensively on this item over a long period of time and anyone keen to get an understanding of how this has developed over several years notwithstanding that there are some differing views and perspectives that have been raised which after all is what open forums are all about.  Hang in there Woodfood.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Could we please ask the moderator to shutdown the parallel running threads on this topic. Woodfood and others have reported extensively on this item over a long period of time and anyone keen to get an understanding of how this has developed over several years notwithstanding that there are some differing views and perspectives that have been raised which after all is what open forums are all about.  Hang in there Woodfood.
  woodford Chief Commissioner


4. Drought busting / 100 yr record breaking rain exacerbated the issue. ARTC initiated the Ballast Remediation Program. However that program is mostly internally funded which constrains its scope and speed.
cootanee


Between May and July/August we had more than a years rainfall, during that period there were more days of rain than without rain. This is VERY rare for this area. It was a miserable winter. Talking to lllllloooooonnnnnnggggg time locals, this last occured in the 1950's


I will second the request to close this thread, all info is in the main post regauging NE thread, nearly all questions have been answered there..

woodford
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Maybe it is time to start talking about the state of the ARTC Western line from Melbourne to the South Australian border instead.

ARTC can't blame anyone else for the mudholes out there. Even the Moorabool Viaduct is full of mudholes and has a 65 kmh limit on it.
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
So are you suggesting that ARTC deliberately creates mudholes, and the weather has nothing to do with it.
Where would you suggest that ARTC gets the money from to fix them.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Maybe it is time to start talking about the state of the ARTC Western line from Melbourne to the South Australian border instead.

ARTC can't blame anyone else for the mudholes out there. Even the Moorabool Viaduct is full of mudholes and has a 65 kmh limit on it.
DalyWaters

As a matter of interest, how does the track condition between Serviceton and Adelaide compare with the track between Melbourne and Serviceton?
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

Mudholes aren't an exclusive problem to ARTC, have a look at V/Line and Metro track and there are plenty of them all over the state/city.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Mudholes aren't an exclusive problem to ARTC, have a look at V/Line and Metro track and there are plenty of them all over the state/city.
ab123

I was under the impression that ARTC has the contract to replace timber sleepers with concrete throughout the METRO area...
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
I was under the impression they only replaced sleepers in the metro area when there was a derailment or a grade separation, with the added bonus of costing millions of dollars every single time. No wonder the state is broke and doesn't want to fund rail (when the only people in the rail industry are sell-outs and have never lifted more than a pen or a mobile phone, let alone hammering a dog spike into a wooden sleeper). Speaking of which, another $8 billion was just lost to the East West truckway (What's a tollway? Never used one of those before).
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

Mud holes are over the entire network guys, lets get that clear.
Also, no-one creates mud holes but they don't exactly fix them correctly to prevent them from re-occurring either.
Re-sleepering doesn't prevent mud holes either, it actually can create them.
Major track works when track machinery for Tampering, re-leveling of track can actually create mud holes... especially when forced to work through the rain... Vibration of the sleeper to compact ballast under neath is effective but when raining.. remember ballast drains, if the capping is destroyed underneath, the vibration will shake the mud through the track... and Hello.... new problem..

How there fixed?
They dig them out, dispose of material (Unsure where)
Instead of repairing the capping layer to prevent the mud coming through, they just fill them up completely with ballast.. Seen ARTC do this with my own eyes over the years..
V-Line do the opposite, fix them properly.. Metro 50/50

thanks
  Dave-the-slave Station Master

Location: Epping, Victoria
What you are describing Grosso is ballast cleaning something which has not occurred in the metropolitan area for at least 10 years! While shoulder drain cleaning may have taken place here and there it's not the complete answer to mud holes. As correctly identified it's the contaminated ballast that does not allow the water to drain and possibly the pump action of the sleepers moving with each passing train that help bring/keep water at the surface.

I notice the mud hole on the up just past the crossing at Lalor station has got a lot worse. Drivers are not accelerating from the station as quick as previously.

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