New Policy: Posting of Special Train timetables

 
  Maikha Moderator Not a gunzel

[edit]To all Railpage Australia™ Members

Effective immediately, is the new Railpage Australia™ policy now restricting the individual members posting of Special/Heritage Train Timetables, whether in the form of RailCorp STNs, ARTc TAAs, MTM/V/Line S Circulars, and special timetables of any tourist railway to the following conditions.

[b]1) Direct 'cut-and-paste' postings of [i]Mainline[/i] Timetables from original railway issued documents and/or direct links to these documents is no longer permitted on these forums, on the following grounds:[/b]

*These Documents issued by the railway authorities are intended for Railway Employees and Those Concerned only, NOT for wide distribution to railway enthusiasts and especially not to be publically released on the internet.
*The documents themselves are not easily readable to the majority of members who aren't well conversed to railway operations
*Some documents contain confidential information which posters seemingly do not remove (I.e. AK Car Telephone numbers)
*The increasing 'competition' between members to first release train times is becoming irritating towards the rest of the membership, particularly the childish flame wards to occur afterwards.

[b]2) Disclosure of special train times from documents authored by [i]Tourist Railways[/i] that are 'sold' to photographers/enthusiasts will also not be permitted here, on moral grounds that it deprives the society of income.[/b]

[b]3) Posting of [i]Mainline[/i] Special Train Timetables, are permitted to be disclosed by an authorised Manager/Director of the Operator/Charterer Only, NOT a volunteer associated with the train/charter whether working aboard the train or not.[/b]

Railpage Australia™ Management are aware of who officially represents or is authorised to disclosed such information.

[b]4) Posting of Special Train timetables, is still permitted by individual Railpage Australia™ members, but on the provision they have summarised the Timetable to primarily include the main times of the train passing certain locations.[/b]
This is to include 'pass', 'arrival', 'departure' times, and any other information significant to the train's operation such as coaling and watering and the like. Any embellishments to the summary such as altered times and the like will be treated as direct misinformation and the user warned accordingly

[b]5) Train Timetables and Summaries listed on the websites of the operating society/charterer are indeed welcome to be reposted here, as long as the website link/source is credited[/b].

[b]6) All times posted on this forum are to be treated with a grain of salt, and may not be the correct or accurately posted at the time. Railpage Australia™ is not responsible for your reliance on this[/b].

[color=red]
[b]7) Railpage Australia™ Management and Administration reserve the right to restrict or remove the posting of ANY timetable on any grounds, particularly if it has been requested by a rail authority and/or the representative of a society. For a great example, refer to [url=http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1302514.htm#1302514]this thread[/url]
[/color]

[color=black]Recent examples of acceptable and unacceptable postings of timetables are the following:[/color]

[quote="Acceptable example courtesy of Sydney_Gunzel"]
[b]6L61[/b]
Sydney Terminal depart 0824
Strathfield 0840
Lidcombe 0848
Granville 0854
Westmead 0900
Blacktown 0911
Penrith 0935
Valley Heights 1000
Lawson 1030
Katoomba 1049
Mt Victoria 1106
Lithgow CS 1137
Wallerawang 1154
Bathurst 1309

[b]6L65[/b]
Bathurst 1531
Tarana 1616
Wallerawang 1647
Lithgow CS 1704
Mt Victoria 1733
Katoomba 1750
Springwood 1832
Penrith 1903
Blacktown 1929
Westmead 1944
Granville 1952
Lidcombe 1959
Strathfield 2009
Sydney Terminal 2021.[/quote]
[quote="Acceptable summary of a V/Line S Circular"]8540 departs Newport at 0932

Down Trains:
FFS - 8541 dep 0955 arr Mitcham 1035
CAM - 8543 dep 1115 arr MIT 1135
CAM - 8549 dep 1315 arr MIT 1335
CAM - 8551 dep 1415 arr MIT 1435
CAM - 8553 dep 1515 arr MIT 1535

Up Trains:
MIT - 8542 dep 1042 arr CAM 1105
MIT - 8550 dep 1145 arr CAM 1205
MIT - 8552 dep 1345 arr CAM 1405
MIT - 8554 dep 1445 arr CAM 1505
MIT - 8556 dep 1545 arr CAM 1605 run to FSS

8557 dep FSS 1628 arr NPT 1656[/quote]

An unacceptable cut-and-paste method can look like the following:

[quote="Unacceptable direct cut-and-paste of an ARTC TAA"]9L02 on Thu 31/12/2010 will depart Canberra 0920, arrive Queanbeyan 0935, g, u, depart
0940, arrive Bungendore 1031, g, depart 1100, arrive Tarago 1139, g, depart 1144, arrive
Goulburn 1225, g, depart 1235, pass Medway Junction 1305, Bundanoon 1329, Moss Vale
1345, Bowral 1353, Mittagong 1357, Bargo 1422, Picton 1436, Macarthur 1459, thence as
tabled by RailCorp.
9L03 on Fri 01/01/2010 will run as tabled by RailCorp to pass Macarthur 0335, Picton 0404,
Bargo 0425, Mittagong 0509, Bowral 0514, Moss Vale 0523, Bundanoon 0538, Medway
Junction 0605, arrive Goulburn 0636, g, depart 0641, arrive Tarago 0720, g, depart 0808,
arrive Bungendore 0842, g, depart 0845, arrive Queanbeyan 0932, g, d, depart 0937, arrive
Canberra 0955, stable at ARHS Depot.
Train Consist: 2 x Locomotives and Cars
Length: 370m
Weight: Up to 640 tonnes[/quote]

And can we stress we still strongly encourage train timetables to be shared for the wider community benefit of heading out to photograph it and/or see it through.

We however are putting order in on how these times are shared through requests and suggestions made by associates and contacts of Railpage Australia™ Management both within the rail industry and preservation community primarily in Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland.


This policy, although effective and enforced immediately, is open to suggestions and ideas as long as it is civil and has substance.

Thank you for your cooperation.[/edit]

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  Spletsie Deputy Commissioner

Thanks Maikha. It's helpful to have this policy clarified.
  412M Assistant Commissioner

A few points to seek clarification on:

1: Are mainline timetables which are available to the public allowed to be put on? For example, copies of the public version of timetables for V/line trains (as available on their website), as distinct from the actual working timetables only available to staff.

2: Can special train times for tourist railways that are not sold be posted, subject to them being modified to look similar to the 2 acceptable methods of posting timetables above?

3: If a special train is to run and the company has requested times not to be posted, can the date and rough time of departure be posted? By this I mean, if we use the example linked to in point 7 above, would saying the R707 leaves Melbourne in the morning on 13 September 2009, arrives Ballarat around lunchtime and leaves Ballarat on the same day to return to Melbourne in the evening be acceptable, as opposed to giving times for it's run as per the 2 acceptable examples of posting timetables (above) be allowed?
  Maikha Moderator Not a gunzel

1: Are mainline timetables which are available to the public allowed to be put on? For example, copies of the public version of timetables for V/line trains (as available on their website), as distinct from the actual working timetables only available to staff.
"412M"
Those timetables are subject to the copyright of V/Line. If for whatever reason, a user had to quote the V/Line timetable, that is acceptable as long as the source is credited

2: Can special train times for tourist railways that are not sold be posted, subject to them being modified to look similar to the 2 acceptable methods of posting timetables above?
"412M"
Again, read the policy. Such timetables are clearly posted on the TRs website, and these can be reproduced on here as long as the website/source is credited.

3: If a special train is to run and the company has requested times not to be posted, can the date and rough time of departure be posted? By this I mean, if we use the example linked to in point 7 above, would saying the R707 leaves Melbourne in the morning on 13 September 2009, arrives Ballarat around lunchtime and leaves Ballarat on the same day to return to Melbourne in the evening be acceptable, as opposed to giving times for it's run as per the 2 acceptable examples of posting timetables (above) be allowed?
"412M"
If a company has requested times not to be posted, than Railpage will most definitely honour such a request, and expect users to do so.

If the company has only disclosed their departure time from the origin and an arrival time at the destination on their website, it is acceptable to reproduce this and nothing more. There's no benefit in trying to estimate the train's passing times at various locations simply because there is nothing factual behind this.
  Speed Minister for Railways

Regarding that V-Line schedule, there is the issue that it abbreviates "Camberwell" and "Mitcham". There is a separate policy against using station codes.
  Maikha Moderator Not a gunzel

Regarding that V-Line schedule, there is the issue that it abbreviates "Camberwell" and "Mitcham". There is a separate policy against using station codes.
"Speed"
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand...
  TE2815 Minister for Railways

Location: Mission control Minto or Thirlmere
Regarding that V-Line schedule, there is the issue that it abbreviates "Camberwell" and "Mitcham". There is a separate policy against using station codes.
"Speed"
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand...
"Maikha"
I think he is saying there is a policy (I can't recall it) here that full station/location name must be used. So if I was to post some RTM information I could not put THM and PIC but have to use Thirlmere and Picton for example.

Another point to clarify is Train Consist. Is the inclusion of the proposed Motive Power and composition allowed or banned Question

Just a point of order while some posting rules were needed I did not see a problem with the cut and paste so long as phone numbers/contact details were removed as stated. These conditions have probably gone a little too far, if I may express that personal opinion.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
Another I suppose valid point to raise- Have there been concerns raised from outside the Moderatorship of Railpage australia- Or is this just a decision taken purely by the mods/admins here?

Kind Regards
  MBAX Chief Commissioner

Location: Mostly the Imperial
Just a point of order while some posting rules were needed I did not see a problem with the cut and paste so long as phone numbers/contact details were removed as stated. These conditions have probably gone a little too far, if I may express that personal opinion.
"TE2815"


Agree with your view totally and it is way over the top.

Just another way of the "in crowd" holding on to information for themselves.

Personally I see this as another nail in the coffin for this board. You will just get more threads based on speculation and basically full of nothing.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide
Just a point of order while some posting rules were needed I did not see a problem with the cut and paste so long as phone numbers/contact details were removed as stated. These conditions have probably gone a little too far, if I may express that personal opinion.
"TE2815"


Agree with your view totally and it is way over the top.

Just another way of the "in crowd" holding on to information for themselves.

Personally I see this as another nail in the coffin for this board. You will just get more threads based on speculation and basically full of nothing.
"MBAX"


Or the policy could be NO information be posted whatsoever. The "in crowd" vastly come from a Railway background and have access to the information by virtue they need it for their job. I found the STN policy to be fair and well balanced.
The policy is not saying dont post the information, it wants a bit of effort from those posting it however. The users here do not need to know that SL22 is running on the DM XTR then at 1015L, 1022a, 1037L=.

The examples posted show an abundance of information that the gunzel needs to know. I dont see what the issue is here beyond spending an extra 2 minutes editing the document for posting.
  Maikha Moderator Not a gunzel

Before making a query, please actually read the policy before doing so. May I emphasise the following line in the policy:

And can we stress we still strongly encourage train timetables to be shared for the wider community benefit of heading out to photograph it and/or see it through.


Regarding that V-Line schedule, there is the issue that it abbreviates "Camberwell" and "Mitcham". There is a separate policy against using station codes.
"Speed"
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand...
"Maikha"
I think he is saying there is a policy (I can't recall it) here that full station/location name must be used. So if I was to post some RTM information I could not put THM and PIC but have to use Thirlmere and Picton for example.
"TE2815"
Righto, now I understand.

This V/Line policy has nothing to do with us, so abbreviate away. But again, use some common sense and discretion with abbreviations. Wasn't that long ago a flame war erupted on Ausloco, simply between the misunderstanding of the abbreviation BGO between Bargo (NSW) or Bendigo (VIC).

Also, one banned user here was prominent with abbreviating every 2nd/3rd word in all of his posts. Don't do that!

Another point to clarify is Train Consist. Is the inclusion of the proposed Motive Power and composition allowed or banned Question
"TE2815"
Allowed

Just a point of order while some posting rules were needed I did not see a problem with the cut and paste so long as phone numbers/contact details were removed as stated. These conditions have probably gone a little too far, if I may express that personal opinion.
"TE2815"
Unfortunately, it seemed a number of users were constantly not using their head when cut-pasting, and posting phone numbers, of AK Cars, signal complexes, Superintendents and RTM Operation Manager's mobile numbers. Even after warning them it still happened.

Then there was this 'competition' that was seemingly occurring between members trying to get the first postings of an STN/TAA, and this led to the usual flame wars. Admin/Mods had to draw a line, and this policy is it.

Another I suppose valid point to raise- Have there been concerns raised from outside the Moderatorship of Railpage Australia™- Or is this just a decision taken purely by the mods/admins here?
"lsrailfan"
Yes there have been concerns raised about this by many people in the industry directly to some members of the Moderator team, myself included.

The decision to implement this policy, of course, was made by the Mods/Admin here unanimously, and this policy, although composed by myself, was reviewed and modified by the rest of the team before being given the go ahead.

Agree with your view totally and it is way over the top.

Just another way of the "in crowd" holding on to information for themselves.

Personally I see this as another nail in the coffin for this board. You will just get more threads based on speculation and basically full of nothing.
"MBAX"
This is pretty much a situation of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't. Again, read the policy, we are NOT banning the postings of Special Train timetables. All we ask is that Members show some discretion and common sense on how they do so, and have even provided examples!


Or the policy could be NO information be posted whatsoever. The "in crowd" vastly come from a Railway background and have access to the information by virtue they need it for their job. I found the STN policy to be fair and well balanced.
The policy is not saying dont post the information, it wants a bit of effort from those posting it however. The users here do not need to know that SL22 is running on the DM XTR then at 1015L, 1022a, 1037L=.


The examples posted show an abundance of information that the gunzel needs to know. I dont see what the issue is here beyond spending an extra 2 minutes editing the document for posting.
"seb2351"
Thank you Seb for clarifying this particularly the bolded paragraph.
  3foot6 Minister for Railways

Location: Unknown
We have covered examples for NSW and VIC. Are there any for QLD?
  Maikha Moderator Not a gunzel

We have covered examples for NSW and VIC. Are there any for QLD?
"3foot6"
No examples for QLD, as frankly, we haven't had any issues come from QLD on here regarding the posting of train times... but the same rules apply there and once again, use some common sense.

If it's a Heritage Tour of some form, than by all means post the times after resummarising them and NOT cut-pasting from the original railway document.

However, if something from QR or a third party operator on QR's Network isn't meant to be publically disclosed.... then don't. It's pretty simple.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
This policy is now several years old. Is it now time for a review ?

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