Bayside Rail Project

 
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I had the distinct pleasure of running into two of my neighbouring local Liberal MP's last week, and I couldn't help but stop to have a bit of a chat with them. I don't know what kind of delusional world they live in, but their view of what is happening on the Frankston line is different to that of the travelling public. They seem to think the modest investment of just over $100 million is wonderful however painting stations does not help the trains run on time or stop skipping stations.  The member for Prahran was blithely convinced the Frankston line had vast amounts of concrete sleepers installed, maybe between Caulfield - Richmond (which was done a few years ago) but nothing really south of Caulfield. A few curves between Caulfield and Moorabbin have been done and that's about it. I can only imagine the lateral movement of the X'Trap between Cheltenham - Highett.
The funny thing is the amount of advertising compare to actual visible work taking place.  Every station on the Frankston line has posters attached announcing the Bayside Rail Project. I judge by the amount of evident work that has been happening, but the whole project seems to be really cosmetic - painting stations, new toilets at Mordialloc, new bus terminal & station entrance at Moorabbin. Heaps of little things but nothing really big. I compare this too:

Ringwood Corridor between Richmond - Box Hill: Major track & signalling upgrades seem to be underway with large parts of the lines having concrete sleepers installed and new signalling being installed everywhere.

Clifton Hill Corridor between Jolimont - Clifton Hill: Same as the Ringwood group with major track upgrades taking place.

The difference to the Bayside project is huge and there is no advertising in place on either of these two mentioned projects.  The Liberals are only advertising to desperately hold onto the Bayside seats as they only won them on a small margin and they are likely to change hands once again.

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  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I had the distinct pleasure of running into two of my neighbouring local Liberal MP's last week, and I couldn't help but stop to have a bit of a chat with them. I don't know what kind of delusional world they live in, but their view of what is happening on the Frankston line is different to that of the travelling public. They seem to think the modest investment of just over $100 million is wonderful however painting stations does not help the trains run on time or stop skipping stations. The member for Prahran was blithely convinced the Frankston line had vast amounts of concrete sleepers installed, maybe between Caulfield - Richmond (which was done a few years ago) but nothing really south of Caulfield. A few curves between Caulfield and Moorabbin have been done and that's about it. I can only imagine the lateral movement of the X'Trap between Cheltenham - Highett.
The funny thing is the amount of advertising compare to actual visible work taking place. Every station on the Frankston line has posters attached announcing the Bayside Rail Project. I judge by the amount of evident work that has been happening, but the whole project seems to be really cosmetic - painting stations, new toilets at Mordialloc, new bus terminal & station entrance at Moorabbin. Heaps of little things but nothing really big. I compare this too:

Ringwood Corridor between Richmond - Box Hill: Major track & signalling upgrades seem to be underway with large parts of the lines having concrete sleepers installed and new signalling being installed everywhere.

Clifton Hill Corridor between Jolimont - Clifton Hill: Same as the Ringwood group with major track upgrades taking place.

The difference to the Bayside project is huge and there is no advertising in place on either of these two mentioned projects. The Liberals are only advertising to desperately hold onto the Bayside seats as they only won them on a small margin and they are likely to change hands once again.
jdekorte

Yes it all seems a cynical grab to hold on to power. I mean the Bayside Rail Project is nothing substantial. The Introduction of a unremarkable train based on old technology, painting of a few stations, the installation of dot matrix indicators, $700,000 spent on a new bus interchange at Moorabbin. Yes the Liberals have complete heaps and heaps of little projects that they have initiated. They are interested in Public Transport if they can get quick wins. They are not prepared to commit to a large game changing project. For e.g. in conjunction with the $5.6 Billion East West link, they are setting aside $47 Million for Public Transport initiatives. $47 Million!!!, that is less than 1%. Apart from the Grade Separations, the biggest projects that they have completed have been Waurn Ponds Station, Wyndham Local Bus Network and the Domain Interchange Modernization.

Michael
  shaun001 Station Master

The project isn't due to be completed until this time next year so let's wait and see what happens over the next 12 months.

One thing is for sure - the government is in serious trouble polls wise. This obviously shows that commuters are not falling for all this anyway!
  Some rail man Junior Train Controller

Location: CIA Headquarters in Washington D.C
The coalitions infrastructure priority list according to many of us:
1. Roads
2. Roads
3. Roads
4. Roads
5. Roads
6. Roads
7. Roads
8. Grade Separations (Roads)
9. PT projects in marginal seats (Bayside)
10. Mega game changing rail projects.

Don't forget selling off land reserved for PT projects to developers
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I had the distinct pleasure of running into two of my neighbouring local Liberal MP's last week, and I couldn't help but stop to have a bit of a chat with them. I don't know what kind of delusional world they live in, but their view of what is happening on the Frankston line is different to that of the travelling public. They seem to think the modest investment of just over $100 million is wonderful however painting stations does not help the trains run on time or stop skipping stations.
jdekorte

They generally have no idea about public transport in general - I'm sure if you put most of them (Liberal or Labor) in front of a tram and told them to buy a ticket most of them would have no idea that you can't buy one on board any longer.

It's unacceptable, they're supposed to have improved things immeasurably by now - instead we had four years of nothing.
  MtBeenak Train Controller

They generally have no idea about public transport in general - I'm sure if you put most of them (Liberal or Labor) in front of a tram and told them to buy a ticket most of them would have no idea that you can't buy one on board any longer.

It's unacceptable, they're supposed to have improved things immeasurably by now - instead we had four years of nothing.
don_dunstan

(Sarcasm filters off) Ah, yes.  Myki.  The ALP's last great infrastructure project.  A complete success, and only several billion dollars over budget.  Oh, wait, I forgot about that other great success, the desal plant.
(Sarcasm filters on)
I would rather four more years of nothing than four more years of splurging billions of dollars on white elephants.
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
... four more years of splurging billions of dollars on white elephants.
"MtBeenak"


Well you can look forward to the stupidly expensive road tunnel which doesn't go where the traffic wants to go and maybe a rail tunnel which doesn't go where the passengers want to go. Throwing out five years of engineering and planning work on a whim is utter utter stupidity of the highest order.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
(Sarcasm filters off) Ah, yes. Myki. The ALP's last great infrastructure project. A complete success, and only several billion dollars over budget. Oh, wait, I forgot about that other great success, the desal plant.
(Sarcasm filters on)
I would rather four more years of nothing than four more years of splurging billions of dollars on white elephants.
MtBeenak

They got Regional Rail Link done too, I'm willing to forgive them for one major thing they got right.  And even though it cost much more than it should have we now have a central rail terminus befitting a major city instead of the embarrassing old one.

I agree with you about the other disasters but frankly we can't afford four more years of nothing, I can't imagine how much worse the road and rail system will become.
  Plan B Junior Train Controller

Let us not go blaming specific political parties - they are all as bad as each other.  Every policy, every plan is based upon one outcome - that is the outcome of the next election.

Any aspiring politicians with views of good and sensible long-term ideas will be squashed out by the respective party machines before they can get close to a pre-selection race.

Consider my spleen vented!
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
They all have their various crowds of hangers-on and rent seekers to keep happy with lots of government slush. The East-West just wasn't the most pressing priority in my opinion and it certainly shouldn't have been the ONLY thing on the government's agenda (as it is now).
  MtBeenak Train Controller

"Well you can look forward to the stupidly expensive road tunnel which doesn't go where the traffic wants to go..."

Eastlink and the Maroondah Highway both funnel into the Eastern Freeway, which ends at Hoddle Street/Alexander Parade. It was not a proper way to end when it was constructed, and the East West Link project will funnel most of the traffic off Alexander Pde underground and onto another freeway, first the Tullamarine/Bolte Bridge, and later the Western Ring Road/Western Freeway. This includes a new crossing of the Maribyrnong River. How is this not needed?

To me, the funny part is that the same people who protested about the building of the Eastern Freeway 30 years ago, because it funneled eastern suburbs traffic onto the back streets of Collingwood/Fitzroy are now protesting the plan to solve the problem! The only opponents are people who will benefit from it, by lessening the traffic on their surface streets, and the people supporting it are the people who will benefit from it, by not having to sit in bumper to bumper traffic on those same streets.

And a rail link to Doncaster will never solve the problem! What tradesman will park at a railway station, put all his tools on a train and travel to a worksite across Melbourne? Same with Couriers/Holiday makers/et al.  The airport rail link might reduce traffic by a few hundred cars per day from the Eastern, but not enough to be noticeable.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

"Well you can look forward to the stupidly expensive road tunnel which doesn't go where the traffic wants to go..."

Eastlink and the Maroondah Highway both funnel into the Eastern Freeway, which ends at Hoddle Street/Alexander Parade. It was not a proper way to end when it was constructed, and the East West Link project will funnel most of the traffic off Alexander Pde underground and onto another freeway, first the Tullamarine/Bolte Bridge, and later the Western Ring Road/Western Freeway. This includes a new crossing of the Maribyrnong River. How is this not needed?

To me, the funny part is that the same people who protested about the building of the Eastern Freeway 30 years ago, because it funneled eastern suburbs traffic onto the back streets of Collingwood/Fitzroy are now protesting the plan to solve the problem! The only opponents are people who will benefit from it, by lessening the traffic on their surface streets, and the people supporting it are the people who will benefit from it, by not having to sit in bumper to bumper traffic on those same streets.

And a rail link to Doncaster will never solve the problem! What tradesman will park at a railway station, put all his tools on a train and travel to a worksite across Melbourne? Same with Couriers/Holiday makers/et al. The airport rail link might reduce traffic by a few hundred cars per day from the Eastern, but not enough to be noticeable.
MtBeenak

Yes mainly the people who live in Doncaster and Bulleen and other outer suburbs, but have you given a thought about the people who actually live in Collingwood and Fitzroy who will be displaced because some people want to cut their commute.

I am not aware that hordes of tradesmen will travel from West to East and Vice Versa, I thought in the main they had stuck to their local patch.

I think the missing link of the Ring Road Btween Greensborough and Doncaster is needed more.

I agree with you about the Doncaster Rail Line, it is not needed, however many analysts state that the road will NOT solve Melbourne's traffic woes. Melbourne has one of the best freeway systems in the world and their is gridlock. Give it 5 years and Melbourne will be back to square 1.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

(Sarcasm filters off) Ah, yes. Myki. The ALP's last great infrastructure project. A complete success, and only several billion dollars over budget. Oh, wait, I forgot about that other great success, the desal plant.
(Sarcasm filters on)
I would rather four more years of nothing than four more years of splurging billions of dollars on white elephants.
MtBeenak

Fair comment, but you must agree that the Coalition has been a tiny bit deceitful. They said they were going to fix public transport, they havent, the rail system is still fragile. $115 Million on a project that provides 8 Technically obsolete trains, painting of stations, a bus station at Moorabbin and dot matrix indicators does not constitute a major project.

Remember as well that the Regional Rail Project was initiated by the ALP.

Michael
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
What tradesman will park at a railway station, put all his tools on a train and travel to a worksite across Melbourne? Same with Couriers/Holiday makers/et al.
MtBeenak

I don't like this argument.  Although it's true that public transport is not going to suit everyone, the purpose of providing it is to get as many cars off the roads as possible, particularly single-occupant vehicles destined for the city. It's never going to solve the problem entirely, just as East-West Link can't solve every Melbourne transport problem at once either.

My objection to E-W is the pressing need for some kind of concurrent project - I think it would have been easier for the public to keep voting for them if they'd made a concession to actually constructing one of their other 'coming soon' rail projects at the same time... 'ya know... to keep the appearance of balance with their policy?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I don't like this argument. Although it's true that public transport is not going to suit everyone, the purpose of providing it is to get as many cars off the roads as possible, particularly single-occupant vehicles destined for the city.
don_dunstan

Not just those destined for the city, but others as well, including local and inter-suburban trips.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Not just those destined for the city, but others as well, including local and inter-suburban trips.
railblogger

Doncaster is particularly bad because there's no option other than buses. It doesn't connect with either the tram or rail network like Box Hill (only 3.5 km away) does.

However there are more pressing network issues than building a heavy-rail link to Doncaster... there are places where the network is seriously congested and not competitive at all with driving. They need to be fixed first as a matter of urgency.
  TedHanson Junior Train Controller

(Sarcasm filters off) Ah, yes. Myki. The ALP's last great infrastructure project. A complete success, and only several billion dollars over budget.
MtBeenak

Myki expenditure is as follows: Initial hardware, software and installation - $498 million (as per contract). Subsequent cost of additional hardware and software development - $121 million (outside contract). Annual operating fee - $50 million per year (as per contract). The first year of operation was 2007. So far, that's 8 years (including this one), or $400 million for operation. In total, $1,019 million.

By comparison, back in 1998, Metcard cost $332 million in initial hardware, software and installation. There were additional hardware and software costs (like myki, to get the thing to work) of $65 million. The annual operating fee was $42 million. If you do the correction for inflation, you get a very interesting, but little reported fact. Myki is cheaper than Metcard. So why didn't we just keep Metcard? Well first, it wasn't ours to keep. It belonged to the ERG consortium. And second, ERG wanted $500 million to replace the old machines and $50 million per year operating fee. As it turned out the government would have been better off paying through the nose. But at least with the myki contract, at the end of ten years, ownership reverts to the State of Victoria to enable an open tender for further years of operation. Of course, whether that will result in any improvement is another matter. And also, these smartcard systems that we were told worked perfectly everywhere have turned out to have as many problems as myki when introduced on a complex existing network. Who could have guessed?

The thing about myths, is neatly summed up by Edward De Bono : A myth is a fixed way of looking at the world which cannot be destroyed because, looked at through the myth, all evidence supports the myth.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Of course, whether that will result in any improvement is another matter. And also, these smartcard systems that we were told worked perfectly everywhere have turned out to have as many problems as myki when introduced on a complex existing network. Who could have guessed?
TedHanson

Kamco were extremely aggressive in the way they pitched Myki to the government, claiming in 2003 that ERG's technology would completely break down and become unserviceable and that the government would be the last city in Australia to have old-technology magnetic cards (and you don't want to be seen as old world now, do you?). The department seemed all too willing to buy that spin.

As it turns out Myki had lots of additional 'out of contract' modifications and cost blow-outs that led us to where we are now, one of the most expensive and user-unfriendly ticketing systems in the nation. Even today there's a news article about how they're looking for a better alternative with a move to 'pay-wave' bank systems... oh well, another thousand million dollars down the drain.

Without a shadow of doubt, Peter Bachelor was one of the worst ministers to emerge from the Bracks/Brumby governments but then Mulder made the dog of a system even worse by removing tourist/temporary ticketing and eliminating the capacity to pay cash fares. They're all equally-bad, there's no doubt about it.
  MtBeenak Train Controller

Of course, whether that will result in any improvement is another matter. And also, these smartcard systems that we were told worked perfectly everywhere have turned out to have as many problems as myki when introduced on a complex existing network. Who could have guessed?

The thing about myths, is neatly summed up by Edward De Bono : A myth is a fixed way of looking at the world which cannot be destroyed because, looked at through the myth, all evidence supports the myth.
TedHanson

Hey, what is a few billion dollars between friends?  And if we talk in Politician dollars, it is only a few million dollars.

This thread is now so far off topic, I think we should rename it "Politician Bashing".

Back to the subject of Myki; they issue override cards to the station staff for the barriers at busy locations.  They issue standard customer cards which do not require a monetary balance to other staff, such as drivers.  However, if you do not tap on when you go in to Flinders St, (such as if arriving from an outstation yard by train), you cannot get out of the barriers to the outside world.   You have to find a bypass gate or beg to be let out, but you can tap back in.  Then after two hours it all starts again, because it cannot cope with the kind of travel that a driver does!  Myki will not issue the barrier staff type cards to employees, only to stations.  No reason...they just will not.

Since Myki was introduced, Visa has created pay pass technology that allows you to spend up to a fixed amount (usually $100) by simply tapping your credit card on a cash register reader at any of several million locations, anywhere in the world.  Surely this is more complex than our myki system.  Would such technology work in a train/bus/tram situation?
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

The East-West link should have been constructed in conjunction the the Doncaster rail-line in my opinion. People from the eastern suburbs at least then have the option of commuting to the city via train. It is predicted 56,000 people a day would use this line.

On Wikipedia it says "the Doncaster rail line proposal is almost identical to the completed Joondalup Line and recently completed Mandurah Line, both in Perth, a city with less than half the population of Melbourne, which runs along the centre median of the Kwinana Freeway and through various tunnels. The Mandurah rail line, completed in 2007, is almost double the length of the proposed Doncaster line and cost 1.6 billion; trains are able to travel at up to 130 km/h."

The Doncaster line should also extend to Doncaster shoppingtown via a tunnel and not the cheap option the government have suggested to Doncaster Hill.

They should put extra train stations on the Airport railline. Much of the traffic on the Tullamarine freeway is from these Suburbs. Sunshine North - Keilor East - Airport West - Gowanbrae - Gladstone Park - Tullamarine. Adding these stations would make the Airport Rail-link more viable. Some trains would stop all stations and other would run express. They should also have two stations Domestic and International like they have in Sydney and Brisbane and proposed in Perth preferably underground.
wxtre

The Doncaster Line is identical to the Joondalup line as far that it would have been built along a freeway median but that is as far as it goes. The Northern Suburbs of Perth (Wanneroo, Joondalup, Clarkson, Butler, Akimos) are Booming, the Doncaster Line Corridor is not. There is just so much to do with the existing network. I do not want politicians touting projects that will have no chance of being funded. I would like the incoming transport minister after 29/11 whether Lib or ALP to acknowledge that all is not right with our Public Transport. To acknowledge that "Public Transport Infrastructure in Victoria has fallen behind where it should be". I still hold to the fact that the fragile old rail network that is Metro Trains needs to be updated and fixed first.

The whole point of the Airport line is to make it an express service from the CBD to the Airport maybe stopping at Footscray and/or Sunshine Only, to compete with the express Airport Bus. if you are going to add stations, you might as well go for the cheap option and convert the old Broad Gauge freight to Tram operation and build those stations as cheap tram super stops, or better still enhance the local bus network.

Michael
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
But at least with the myki contract, at the end of ten years, ownership reverts to the State of Victoria to enable an open tender for further years of operation.
TedHanson

I only heard of this a few weeks ago - it's a positive in what was otherwise a very poor contract.

In South Australia they decided to keep Crouzet magnetic strip tickets incorporated into the new chip-based validators - some do both and some are only card validators. I'm not sure what that cost them to do that but at least you have the option (as a tourist) to buy a day-trip or two-hourly ticket without the expense of buying the damn plastic card as well. Maybe they will be able to solve this problem in Melbourne after the expiry of the proprietary technology clause.

I heard that the vending machines for trams (which were already purchased) got sold for scrap. If so then I guess it's just another example of the wasted money and poor political decisions around myki. I wonder how many people they could have actually employed to serve the public instead!
  Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren
Melbourne has one of the best freeway systems in the world
mejhammers1

LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
"Well you can look forward to the stupidly expensive road tunnel which doesn't go where the traffic wants to go..."

Eastlink and the Maroondah Highway both funnel into the Eastern Freeway, which ends at Hoddle Street/Alexander Parade. It was not a proper way to end when it was constructed, and the East West Link project will funnel most of the traffic off Alexander Pde underground and onto another freeway, first the Tullamarine/Bolte Bridge, and later the Western Ring Road/Western Freeway.
"MtBeenak"


Except that the majority of the enormous traffic jam at the end of the Eastern every morning isn't going to the Tulla or CityLink or the Ring Road, it's going into the city. If E-W link is built there will still be a huge traffic jam at Hoddle Street every morning, but hey at least Lindsay Foxes trucks will be able to get around quicker.

As for the comments about tradies, of course I don't expect a tradie to take his tools on the train. But guess what, if you improved public transport to a point where everyone who wanted to take it could, then the volume of traffic taken off the existing road network would make it far more efficient for tradies and trucks.

I don't have a problem with the government investing billions of dollars in infrastructure per se, even roads. I have a problem with the complete lack of transparency at every turn, at the rush to sign contracts weeks before an election, and the duplicitous nature of the Liberal Party at the last election by not even mentioning a project they were clearly desperate to ram through whilst publicly promising to improve public transport, even if they were just Tony Abbott promises into feasibility studies ('the promises we made not the promises everyone thought we made'). Not to mention the binning of five years engineering and planning work on Melbourne Metro for a back of an envelope job which conflicts with their own development plans for Montague, but the rail line to bring high rollers straight from the airport to the casino is another rant entirely...
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
+1 HardSleeper


East-West came from absolutely nowhere to the very front of the infrastructure queue - it wasn't even discussed at the last election by either side. And the Montague metro tunnel seems to have been born from the same misty ether... like it was drawn up on the back of a napkin.
  MrToastyy Locomotive Driver

Location: Werribee
what time does it ruun on sunday

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