Former Premier announces airport rail line will be built

 
  historian Deputy Commissioner

WRT quadruplication between Caulfield and Oakleigh.

A quick check of the on-line mapping tool available from Lands Victoria (http://services.land.vic.gov.au/maps/interactive.jsp) shows that the railway reserve between Caulfield and Oakleigh is mostly about 20 metres wide. I'd be willing to bet money that it is actually 20.12 metres - which is exactly 66 feet wide in the old money. Why? Because 66 feet is 1 chain, a nice round number for the surveyors. It's wider south of Hughesdale.

Then a quick check of the VRIOGS standards shows that the absolute minimum width of a four track line that carries freight is 23.25 metres. This is made up of 5.75 metres between the centre line of each track (minimum when the tracks carry freight), and 3 metres outside the tracks. To this you'd need to add at least 1 metre on each side for the retaining walls.

So the railway reserve between Caulfield and Hughesdale is at least 5 metres too narrow for four tracks. Note that this is the absolute minimum. You need more room if you need to accommodate curves in the cutting, or if you want to put signals or o/h stanchions between the two pairs of tracks.

Not surprising that they quickly changed their mind and decided that three tracks was sufficient. This would *just* fit.

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  historian Deputy Commissioner

I believe there is room along the whole corridor. Between Murrumbeena and Carnegie is the tightest area but I would say 4-tracks would fit here. You would need to remove some carparking around the stations. Your measurements are incorrect I believe.


You say the railway reserve between Caulfield and Oakleigh is mostly about 20 metres wide or 20.12 metres to be exact.

The width of a train is 3.05 metres times this by four it equals 12.2 metres That would leave 2 meters room between each train as they pass. That is ample room for quadruple tracks.
wxtre

Let's be clear. You believe that 20 metres is sufficient for a quadruple track line. You base this belief on the following assertions:

  1. that a distance of 5 metres between track centres is sufficient because a train is only 3.05 metres wide

  2. that it's only necessary to have a cess clearance of 2.5 metres

  3. that retaining walls have no depth.


You do not give any basis for these assertions.

Sadly, the current Victorian standard for 'Structural Gauge Envelopes – Minimum clearances for Infrastructure adjacent to the Railway'  (VRIOGS 1-2005), requires 5.75 metres between track centres where the lines carry freight. They also require a minimum of 3 metres from the centre line of the outermost track and a retaining wall.

And it's a sad physical reality that retaining walls, particularly deep ones, need a reasonable physical thickness. And a legal reality that these walls will need to be completely on railway land.

Add it up, and there is not sufficient room in a 1 chain reserve for four tracks.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

If you purchase out of the store front window you will always pay more.

Nearly everything you have said I do not agree with. It is about planning. Some platforms and tracks may not be needed at present but it will be needed as the network plan is implemented. The government should not construct the cheap option because it will cost more in the future when you have to upgrade and redesign it once again. A perfect example is Footscray station which was redesigned in 2010 with a $15 million footbridge. In 2013 the new footbridge was partially demolished as part of the Regional Rail Link. It was because of lack of planning as the bridge was poorly designed initially.

When the city planners first designed the raillines they left room for 4-tracks on every rail corridor easement except maybe the Glen Waverley line. Unless the government have sold off crown land it should still be able to accommodate 4-tracks.
wxtre

GMan is right, not withstanding the $6 Billion that will be thrown at the East-West link, the state has a finite budget, and if the general public is unwilling to pay a greater contribution through the fare box, then the cheapest solution will always be selected.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

I am probably incorrect about the Glen Waverley Line. Looking at it on Google Maps it has quite alot of room along the easement. Except at Heyington Station which is squeezed in.

The public do pay a high rate at the fare box. Our fares in our capital cities are the highest in the world along with Oslo and London.
wxtre

wrxte, Maybe in Sydney or Brisbane but not Melbourne, so that is total rubbish and you know it. Maybe within a 5 km radius yes but I can tell you that if you were travelling from Upminster to Victoria you would not be paying £4 for the whole day. The peak daily cap is £15.80 ($30) Off Peak £7 ($14). It maybe expensive compared to Russia or Malaysia, but compared to other comparable Western Countries we are amongst the cheapest.

Michael
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
What is this rubbish:

Totenham and West Footscray are only two platforms when they should have four platforms each....

There is an opportunity for underground stations (domestic and international terminals) and adding extra stations to the airport railline but they will choose the cheaper option according to the plans and only run express services to a single above ground station...

Springvale, Nunawading and Mitcham stations should have added additional platforms to allow for duplication of the rail tracks into the future but it was not done...
wxtre

*Express lines do not need platforms
*If overground is cheaper that's exactly what you build
*There is absolutely no justification for quadding beyond Blackburn

Melbourne Underground Rail Loop was completed properly and they did not cut corners. The stations still look modern today.
wxtre

MURLA is an inefficient turd.

If you purchase out of the store front window you will always pay more.
wxtre

Cosa?

it appears... It has always been planned to add 4-track to Dandenong in stages and eliminate the crossings. It is a 100 years since the first section was quadrupled and it still has not been done..
wxtre

"It appears" does not mean it is.  If you do not know something, do not claim it as fact.

Quadding is only intrinsically designed for up to Camberwell for example, and your tale about Dandenong is pure fantasy.

f)The Track Centres of tracks running in parallel straight lines shall be separated by the following minimum
wxtre

Key word - straight.  

As soon as you are not dead straight, you need more space, since the ends and middle of the cars will cut in and out of the alignment on curves.

The public do pay a high rate at the fare box. Our fares in our capital cities are the highest in the world along with Oslo and London.
wxtre

Unsubstantiated droll.  And remember to compare like with like, on a proportional cost of living basis.

Oslo is expected to have the highest fares, since Scandanavia has the highest cost of living in the world.

The list maybe wrong
wxtre

It is completely wrong.  For starters, a single zone in London is not 12km.

I posted actual data comparing like with like which you completely ignored.  Stop posting garbage.
  kapow Junior Train Controller

Do you want me to respond?
wxtre

If you can actually argue against it then yes I am sure he would like you to respond, no offence wxtre but it appears that once somebody shows you why one of your "proposals" won't work you refuse to listen.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
[edit] Hoping we continue the airport thread in one thread, the link be,ow is where a news item was talking about station at the airport.

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11379718-0-asc-s25.htm

Just post here either from that thread or any other.......
[/edit]
---------
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
To start off, what is a average 6car Melbourne train's length, platform length ? Also are ther modern guideline for distances between stations?  And I am asking about Victorian State information here.

Also, arte there any links to what the gov. propose ?


Regards,
David Head
  Bobman Locomotive Fireman

For 33 days from 1 January 1990, 250 trams were parked in Melbourne's CBD streets by tram drivers. The Cain government wanted to save $24 million a year. The trams did not move because the government shut down the power grid.


Who here is old enough to remember this gem from the Labor past?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sBT6WKoguY

^ well worth watching to refresh the memory. One-eyed ALP proponents better get those Kleenex's ready.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

Who here is old enough to remember this gem from the Labor past?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sBT6WKoguY

^ well worth watching to refresh the memory. One-eyed ALP proponents better get those Kleenex's ready.
Bobman

As opposed to a One Eyed Liberal Hack, Bobman. This is a Rail Forum, there is room for constructive criticism of the Government and Opposition policies on Public Transport, and you are turning it into a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Liberal Party!!! The only Liberal person I will give credit to is Jeff Kennett. He rescued the state, but these neo-cons, at least Ted Ballieu had dignity, Denis Napthine, pleeeeese!!!. Liberal, ALP they are no different from each other. If the Liberals get in that $3.9 Billion promise will vapourise as fast as you can say Victorian State Election.

Anyway we are getting off topic. There is a Melbourne Airport Rail Link PDF document study overview in the PTV site, although I have not read the contents. Link below

http://ptv.vic.gov.au/assets/PTV/PTV%20docs/Melbourne-Airport/Melbourne-Airport-Rail-Link-Study-Overview.pdf


Michael
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I hope Labor has learned from its mistakes...
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
There are not any distance requirements between stations I do not[?] believe.
wxtre

No wonder the network feels like a tram line instead of a suburban railway, with stops every 1-2 minutes apart (I refuse to call an unmanned stop with no facilities besides a Myki top-up machine a "station"). It's acceptable in the City Loop, but entirely useless in the suburbs because nearly every train is timetabled to stop at every station, especially in the outer/middle suburbs (Zone 2), not to mention express trains are practically nonexistent on Saturday and Sunday timetables (skipping one or two stations, particularly when they are Flagstaff, East Richmond or South Kensington, should not count as being a limited express).
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Go and read a new news item re the airport.....

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11379765.htm

then come back..... to discuss.

Regards,
David Head
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Well do we need it ? I say yes, mainly if we leave it the costs just skyrocket putting it off more.

Regards,
David Head
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
We live in Australia. What happens overseas is not always a good example.

David
  Chidda Bang Locomotive Driver

Location: Banned
AIRPORT LINE NEW STATIONS PLAN

White City station (where the old one was)
Sunshine North station (mcintyre rd)
Solomon Heights station
Keilor East station (at keilor park dr)
Keilor Park station (at fullarton rd)
Airport West station (parer rd before junction)
Tullamarine station (sharps rd)
Melbourne Airport Terminals 3 & 4 (at terminal 4)
Melbourne Airport Terminals 1 & 2 (at terminal 1)
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Which one do the security people get off at? Or do they go the whole trip?
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
... and instead of a 25 minute city to airport journey, all those extra stops and deviations to the route of the track will make it a one hour journey...

No thanks, I think I'll drive or get a taxi or even take the bus. All three will be much quicker. Rolling Eyes
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
AGAIN, for those thick people out there that fail to understand, here are two things that are going to happen if a line to the airport is built:
1. There will not be any stops between Sunshine and Melbourne Airport, no station at Airport West, no station at Tullamarine.
Anybody going to the airport by train wants to get there as quick as possible. That is the whole idea in the first place. They don't want to be stopping at desolate stations in the middle of some East Keilor industrial park, nor do they want to get stuck behind some pointless stopping all stations train. Anybody currently living in these areas, moved there full well knowing there was never any plans for commuter stations to be built in their area, so they shouldn't now be expecting taxpayers money to fork out for a station that will serve only a small number of people.

2. Melbourne Airport will have ONE, I repeat ONE station, most likely located near the International terminal. From here, the Qantas Domestic terminal, and the Virgin Domestic terminal will be a VERY short walk. THERE WILL NOT BE TWO STATIONS! There is no point in building 2 seperate stations within 200m of each other, it would serve no practical purpose whatsoever.

Can I suggest anybody promoting the need for 2 seperate stations at the airport really should go out there and look for themselves before they make more of a fool of themselves.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
It is pleasing someone else agrees with the international terminal 1 and 4 and additional train station proposal.The other issue is, it difficult to see which alignment the train would take from the Albion line and when it would need to descend into a tunnel under the airport terminals. You also miss Gowanbrae stations that connects to the Airport Westfield shopping center
wxtre

FOR GODS SAKE, GET A BLOODY GRIP YOU FOAMING TWIT!










There will be no additional bloody train station, there will be no bloody Gowanbrae Station and there will be no bloody tunnel you absolute fool. The simple fact there are now two foaming twits commenting on something they know nothing about shows absolutely nothing. Either get your facts straight, or ask some genuine questions, otherwise you're just wasting everyones time.

If you want to be an armchair expert, and claim there is a need for all these pointless stations, then go and do it in the armchair operators section of the forum, where claptrap like this belongs.
  Chidda Bang Locomotive Driver

Location: Banned
Which one do the security people get off at? Or do they go the whole trip?
wobert

They ride the train from north melbourne to tullamarine station Smile

Airport and sunbury line service patterns:

Every 20 minutes: north melbourne - footscray - sunshine - all stations to melbourne airport t1 & t2
Every 20 minutes: north melbourne - footscray - tullamarine - all stations to melbourne airport t1 & t2
(Combines for every 10 minutes at tullamarine, melbourne airport t3 & t4 and all stations to melbourne airport t1 & t2)

Every 20-25 minutes: north melbourne - footscray - all stations to sunbury
(Not even to let airport trains go express and not get in the way of them)
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Aaaagh! Mad

Chidda, please visit the airport and see the layout of the place for yourself. It will be an enjoyable excursion for you in the forthcoming school holidays.

You can get a bus from the Airport West tram terminus, so you can do it all on Myki, and you won't have to lash out for a Skybus ticket.

Let us know your thoughts once you have experienced the airport layout in person. The PT bus route doesn't go along the freeway, instead it goes close to the proposed rail line, so you will get an idea of the lie of the land in that area too. Smile
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
AIRPORT LINE NEW STATIONS PLAN

White City station (where the old one was)
Sunshine North station (mcintyre rd)
Solomon Heights station
Keilor East station (at keilor park dr)
Keilor Park station (at fullarton rd)
Airport West station (parer rd before junction)
Tullamarine station (sharps rd)
Melbourne Airport Terminals 3 & 4 (at terminal 4)
Melbourne Airport Terminals 1 & 2 (at terminal 1)
Chidda Bang

It's happening again!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
For Christ's sake, wxtre, you're going to get a battering from me if you keep this up.

MELBOURNE HAS ONE TERMINAL BUILDING - INTERNATIONAL AND DOMENSTIC ARE COMBINED.

SYDNEY AND BRISBANE HAVE TWO COMPLETELY SEPERATE TERMINALS FOR DOMESTIC AND INTERNATIONAL.

Stop posting absolute bollocks.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

The inner city train stations can be closer because it is higher density. But I would say train stations should be about 1000m apart generally. Between Flagstaff and Melbourne Central underground stations in Melbourne it is about 600m.

The shortest distance between two underground tube stations in London is 260m. It is between Leicester Square and Covent Garden on the Piccadilly Line and only takes 20 seconds.
wxtre

Yeah but that's the West End, one of the most densely populated in terms of Nightclubs, Museums, Theatres, Shopping and Businesses in the World, and most people would just walk from Leicester Square to Covent Garden.

Michael

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