Terrorist situation in Martin place Sydney

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

It's called balance.

Because that's exactly what Miranda Devine, Chris Kenny, Andrew Bolte and the rest of your redneck mates are doing in this case - using the actions of one man to demonise the rest of the Muslim community.
bingley hall
Criticizing religious motives behind terrorism doesn't necessarily equate to "the demonizing the rest of the Muslim community".

Certainly many Muslims take issue and feel offended if they believe that people are "shaming" Islam as they criticize its theology.  But that should never be a reason to silence Islam's critics and stifle serious debate.

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I'd be interested to know that if the person in question was a white catholic, and asked for a Union Jack, whether everyone would still be using the term "terrorist"? To me, it's a term that is far too over-used in modern day vernacular, and is a favorite buzzword for the commercial media (News Corps et al). The guy was a nutter, and that's about the size of it.
Barrington Womble
You are a nutter, I used to think you might nearly have been a worthy debating partner, but lately I have come to realise this is not the case.

A white catholic? When making a point in a debate it's pretty important to not give your opponent an obvious free kick... This might come as some news to you, but there was this group of people, mostly white, mostly catholic, called the IRA, they were/are near universally regarded as terrorists. Perhaps you might like to read about Bloody Sunday, or listen to some Corrs music and watch Michael Collins since I now gather you're a popular culture kind of guy...

I recall a slightly less catholic, but still catholic, nonetheless equally white person, perhaps you've heard of someone called Timothy McVeigh... - Terrrorist.

In case you've not noticed, the Union Jack is typically regarded as a national flag, the Isis flag, and Isis in general is something just a tad, well let's be honest, not even close to the same thing.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Interesting points of view.

Still, is the word "terrorist" or "terror" over-used? Do we associate it with only one ethnic or religion? That's what I am trying to get at.
Barrington Womble
No, the only over use here, is the over use by you of nonsense to make the faux sheikh look like a victim.

We have posted definitions and I am comfortable with the fit, he's wearing the hat mate.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Criticizing religious motives behind terrorism doesn't necessarily equate to "the demonizing the rest of the Muslim community".

Certainly many Muslims take issue and feel offended if they believe that people are "shaming" Islam as they criticize its theology.  But that should never be a reason to silence Islam's critics and stifle serious debate.
Carnot
Correct. My two Islamic friends firmly label this guy a terrorist, and feel in general that their religion has not been tarnished or trashed by these events, because, for once, their religious leaders condemned this guy quickly, strongly and publicly. I said the 'I'll ride with you' thing to them, and they both laughed saying that even on that day they felt perfectly comfortable.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...
An international definition of terrorism has never been formally agreed to, and various definitions are controversial, but the number of perpetrators is never the reason why. ...
"Aaron"


But how would you define a terrorist? Is anyone who undertakes or even condones violence in opposition to a government a terrorist? In that case the Gestapo would have been quite right enforcing the German government’s laws against subversive ‘terrorist’ activities.

...
...to intimidate the civilian population, and to attempt some amendment to the government's policies and operations. Of note is that he attempted to achieve this by taking hostages (and intentionally or otherwise) killing two of them, whilst: a) armed, and b) threatening action with alleged explosives. ...
"Aaron"


And it follows Ned Kelly was not a bushranger but a terrorist.

Even this government pulled back from the terrorist rhetoric. Why make this wacko out to be more than he really was Rolling Eyes  It only serves to give this undue credibility and plays into the hands of the real deal, those who will consider him a hero to their cause and martyr.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
And it follows Ned Kelly was not a bushranger but a terrorist.

Groundrelay
A delightful irony.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
But how would you define a terrorist? Is anyone who undertakes or even condones violence in opposition to a government a terrorist? In that case the Gestapo would have been quite right enforcing the German government’s laws against subversive ‘terrorist’ activities.


Even this government pulled back from the terrorist rhetoric. Why make this wacko out to be more than he really was Rolling Eyes  It only serves to give this undue credibility and plays into the hands of the real deal, those who will consider him a hero to their cause and martyr.
Groundrelay


He had been rejected by all aspects of the Australian mainstream Islamic scene with a criminal past with regard to the suspected murder of his former wife. The guy was a nutter pure and simple and in the same lines of the Tim McVie and the Norwegian idiot who bombed Oslo and shot up that island of kids. Those guys did it under the "white race/christian flag". Yes the Martin Place guy caused terror, but I wouldn't label him a terrorist. Another guy 20 years ago shot up Port Arthur taking 35 people including children, but he was not labelled a terrorist. In the USA kids are walking to schools shooting kids and teachers a few times a year, but they are not labelled terrorists.

Meanwhile in our own country a few days later 2000km north a mother killed 8 kids, 7 of her own. Which one is more serious, yet there is almost no discussion on this compared to Martin Place.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Agreed - I read an interesting article about Monis and his very disturbing story yesterday. Everyone who knew him found him to be a dangerous individual with a complex paranoid delusional belief system who constantly made threats to everyone - including people in his own mosque. Members of the public contacted the Federal Police and ASIO to try and warn them that he was quite dangerous but because law enforcement considered him to be a common nutter (as opposed to being a dangerous terrorist) they repeatedly ignored reports about his behaviour, referring complaints to forensic psychiatric authorities - who simply didn't have the resources or time to follow up.

If someone in authority had taken him seriously then perhaps that whole situation could have been averted.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

He had been rejected by all aspects of the Australian mainstream Islamic scene with a criminal past with regard to the suspected murder of his former wife. The guy was a nutter pure and simple and in the same lines of the Tim McVie and the Norwegian idiot who bombed Oslo and shot up that island of kids. Those guys did it under the "white race/christian flag". Yes the Martin Place guy caused terror, but I wouldn't label him a terrorist. Another guy 20 years ago shot up Port Arthur taking 35 people including children, but he was not labelled a terrorist. In the USA kids are walking to schools shooting kids and teachers a few times a year, but they are not labelled terrorists.

Meanwhile in our own country a few days later 2000km north a mother killed 8 kids, 7 of her own. Which one is more serious, yet there is almost no discussion on this compared to Martin Place.
RTT_Rules
He might have been rejected by mainstream islam, but he acted and prominently displayed his particular version of the religion he aligned with. Something that Bryant, Mc Vie and Anders did not do. None of them raised religion in any way, despite some mutterings of this to find a form of moral equivilance. if you can find anything that indicates any of them used religion as a motivation and displayed their religious allegiance then please show it.

Where they all terrorist acts? You could quite possibly claim they were if you want, in which case you cannot say that this bloke wasn't.

Wether some people like to admit it or discuss it, the simple fact is that Islam has a problem with its more radical elements. They have no tolerance of anybody who does not want to live by the code they think all should comply with as the actions of Islamic state and the Taliban have shown.

I don't walk down the street and glare at all Muslims, nor do I hold them in any way responsible for the actions of this person. but at the same time I realise that there are problems with the more radical versions of islam. and their compatibility with the way we choose to live our lives.

Islam is just a religion, nothing else. If, in the west we can happily take the piss out of Christian based religions then as far as I am concerned that religion can and should expect the same. That means if they do not like a cartoon or a movie they can live with it live everybody else does.

Craig w
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Wrong womble, you used this terrible tragedy to insinuate that Channel 7 was involved in it. Then you throw a hissy fit when you get called out on it.
"northbritish"
Haha. I hate to burst your bubble, but you're nothing but a little bit of light entertainment to me.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
You are a nutter
"Aaron"
If you want to get personal, okay. I think you're a tiresome, obnoxious, condescending little git.

I used to think you might nearly have been a worthy debating partner, but lately I have come to realise this is not the case.
"Aaron"
You're just another person on an internet forum. I really don't care if you think I was or not.

A white catholic?
"Aaron"
You really are an idiot. I was asking a question, and using that as an example to perhaps provoke some thought in others. I wasn't debating anything, although apparently your read it as such.

I'll ask you again without examples etc. as it's obviously too hard for you to switch of the "University Debating Team" button, and give a simple answer: Do you think that the word "terrorist" is overused these days? Try answering the question, rather than trying to make a debate of everything.

I recall a slightly less catholic, but still catholic, nonetheless equally white person, perhaps you've heard of someone called Timothy McVeigh... - Terrrorist.
"Aaron"
Never heard of him.

In case you've not noticed, the Union Jack is typically regarded as a national flag, the Isis flag, and Isis in general is something just a tad, well let's be honest, not even close to the same thing.
"Aaron"
A flag is a flag, my friend. It unites people, and they also fight under it for whatever reason. ISIS ain't a country, granted. I am referring to a flag - any flag as a symbol. Nothing more, nothing less.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
No, the only over use here, is the over use by you of nonsense to make the faux sheikh look like a victim.
"Aaron"
Where have I said he was the 'victim' or tried to make him out to be? He was an A-grade nutcase, and on finding out more about him, he should have been locked up long ago.

We have posted definitions and I am comfortable with the fit, he's wearing the hat mate.
"Aaron"
'We'? Pressman did. Don't take credit for someone else's post.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Wether some people like to admit it or discuss it, the simple fact is that Islam has a problem with its more radical elements. They have no tolerance of anybody who does not want to live by the code they think all should comply with as the actions of Islamic state and the Taliban have shown.

I don't walk down the street and glare at all Muslims, nor do I hold them in any way responsible for the actions of this person. but at the same time I realise that there are problems with the more radical versions of islam. and their compatibility with the way we choose to live our lives.

Islam is just a religion, nothing else. If, in the west we can happily take the piss out of Christian based religions then as far as I am concerned that religion can and should expect the same. That means if they do not like a cartoon or a movie they can live with it live everybody else does.

Craig w
"CraigW"


Yes I will agree with you there. Unfortunately I think alot of its has to do with the region from which its based on. Not sure which came first, but there was a time where Jews, Christians and Muslims actually lived together without conflict. Modern ear seems to have made it worse. Probably to do with British set borders.

However yes the Islamic religion has some parts that do not allow tolerance of non-believers and even Muslims of other branches. As I discussed with a Muslim friend a few weeks ago who said true Muslims don't support this, I responded who is true. They say they are true and you say you are true, so who is right? Other religions they have similar arguments, but they rarely (Nth Irleland and others excluded) don't generally go around doing what this guy and others are doing. The lack of a more centralised leadership, like Pope for example that sets the rules for others to follow is probably not helping.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
"Terrorist" to me implies a member of some group or other; such group having formed due to mutual hatred, anger etc against some country or ideology or both. The Martin Place guy was a lone offender, and to me anyway, is a plain and simple nutcase.

This is a personal opinion, with no attempt to look up any written definition.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

"Terrorist" to me implies a member of some group or other; such group having formed due to mutual hatred, anger etc against some country or ideology or both. The Martin Place guy was a lone offender, and to me anyway, is a plain and simple nutcase.

This is a personal opinion, with no attempt to look up any written definition.
Valvegear
So just a lone offender who happened to have support from Hizb-ut-Tahrir and other fundy Islamic groups?

And in breaking news, a French satirical magazine has just been shot-up by two gunman because a few years ago they published a cartoon depicting Muhammad!  Ten journos dead because they practiced free speech/art and poked a bit of fun at a religion.

Meanwhile, so many leftist types continue to pontificate about how we Westerners should not express an opinion and publicly criticize Islam lest it offend a few Muslims - they even call it "racist" or "Islamophobic"!  Cowards.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
So just a lone offender who happened to have support from Hizb-ut-Tahrir and other fundy Islamic groups?
"Carnot"
Cite?

According to Tony Abbott:
What we do know is that the perpetrator was well known to State and Commonwealth authorities. He had a long history of violent crime, infatuation with extremism and mental instability. We know that he sent offensive letters to the families of Australian soldiers killed in Afghanistan and was found guilty of offences related to this. We also know that he posted graphic extremist material online. As the siege unfolded yesterday, he sought to cloak his actions with the symbolism of the ISIL death cult.
"Tony Abbott"
My bolding.

Absolutely nothing about the groups you're suggesting. In fact, the only info I could find was that they rejected him, because he was mentally unstable. Tony Abbott distinctly says that he acted alone in the seige, which goes against your claim. Who do we beleive: you, or Tony Abbott?

And in breaking news, a French satirical magazine has just been shot-up by two gunman because a few years ago they published a cartoon depicting Muhammad!  Ten journos dead because they practiced free speech/art and poked a bit of fun at a religion.
"Carnot"
Three. Certainly a group of terrorists, as opposed to one nutter in Sydney, who acted alone. Dreadful all the same, regardless of who or what is responsible.

Meanwhile, so many leftist types
"Carnot"
I'm actually sick of hearing about 'left' and 'right'. It's an Americanism. What country are we in again?!

continue to pontificate about how we Westerners should not express an opinion and publicly criticize Islam lest it offend a few Muslims - they even call it "racist" or "Islamophobic"!  Cowards.
"Carnot"
Eh, what? Wipe your mouth mate, it's foaming.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
'We'? Pressman did. Don't take credit for someone else's post.
"Barrington Womble"
So you have trouble reading too?

Make no mistake, this was a terrorist attack.

An international definition of terrorism has never been formally agreed to, and various definitions are controversial, but the number of perpetrators is never the reason why.

One person can be a terrorist, it does not take a team.

The faux sheikh's sole aim was to intimidate the civilian population, and to attempt some amendment to the government's policies and operations. Of note is that he attempted to achieve this by taking hostages (and intentionally or otherwise) killing two of them, whilst: a) armed, and b) threatening action with alleged explosives.

That's the basic trifecta that is almost unanimously agreed to internationally as being a terrorist act.


Add in the fact that he requested an ISIS flag to hang up and thus only a twit would suggest that this was not designed to be an act of terrorism.
"Aaron"
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
A flag is a flag, my friend. It unites people, and they also fight under it for whatever reason. ISIS ain't a country, granted. I am referring to a flag - any flag as a symbol. Nothing more, nothing less.
"Barrington Womble"
I never said ISIS was a country... Although they are trying to make one. ISIS IS however a terrorist organisation... He was trying to unite others behind his ideological belief. He was a terrorist, or at the very least trying to be a very good approximation of one - and no, that is no overuse of the word.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
So you have trouble reading too?
"Aaron"

Nope. I didn't bother reading your post. I saw it, but skipped over it, as most of what you write simply isn't worth reading.
Wasn't that also posted before I asked my question?
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
I never said ISIS was a country... Although they are trying to make one. ISIS IS however a terrorist organisation...
"Aaron"
I never said you did. I said it wasn't one.

He was trying to unite others behind his ideological belief. He was a terrorist, or at the very least trying to be a very good approximation of one - and no, that is no overuse of the word.
"Aaron"

So was he or not? Even you don't seem positive on that. He either is one, or isn't one.

For what it's worth, I don't think he was a terrorist. That was a title the media quickly bestowed upon him because he tried to make himself look like one. I think he was a sociopath, and a mentally unstable fruit-loop, who was rejected by the groups he was trying to align himself with. He's right up there with Martin Bryant - a prized nutter.

So is the word 'terrorism' over-used? It's a simple yes or no answer. There is no debate to it. It either is, or isn't.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Cite?
Barrington Womble
Too easy: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/martin-place-terrorist-man-haron-moniss-links-with-extremist-group-hizb-ut-tahrir-revealed/story-fni0cx12-1227172138089

As for the Paris attack, most hard-line Muslims cannot cop with their religion being "shamed" and thus want us Westerners to be silenced in our critique and/or satire.  I hope that we don't appease them.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Too easy: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/martin-place-terrorist-man-haron-moniss-links-with-extremist-group-hizb-ut-tahrir-revealed/story-fni0cx12-1227172138089
"Carnot"

Snipped the bit about Paris, as it is irrelevent to Martin Place, as tragic as it is.

I'm sorry, I should have asked for a credible citation. The Daily Telegraph certainly isn't a reliable source.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I never said ISIS was a country... Although they are trying to make one. ISIS IS however a terrorist organisation... He was trying to unite others behind his ideological belief. He was a terrorist, or at the very least trying to be a very good approximation of one - and no, that is no overuse of the word.
"Aaron"


Which is why Western govts are now avoiding the term "ISIS" and now using "ISIL"(or what ever that term is) to deny them any reference to impling they are a country.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Snipped the bit about Paris, as it is irrelevent to Martin Place, as tragic as it is.

I'm sorry, I should have asked for a credible citation. The Daily Telegraph certainly isn't a reliable source.
"Barrington Womble"


I work in a muslim country and have no issue wit most of them, but I feel that the religion will increasingly become more isolated in world affairs due to these ongoing attacks. Killing these mag jurnos will only encourage more of their type cartoons etc. It will further polarise the non-islamic populations which will increasingly allienate the muslims and increased violence against them in western countries. Many will probably pack up and leave and return to their home countries for fear of violence and ongoing verbal comments against them.

Likewise if attacks against muslims occur in western countries, muslims in their home countries will become polarised in defense of their culture and make it more difficult for expats in their countries. I was in India for a year when all those attacks and so called attacks against Indians occurred in Australia and at one stage I came close to suggesting the family should leave after anti Aussie protests in our city and I getting increased "questions" at work why Aussie's hate Indian's. Fortunately the issue was resolved quickly and Indian media was very good a reporting the Indian vs Indian aspects of some of the attacks as well as the guy so called burned but was actually burned by accident trying to set his own car on fire for insurance.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Which is why Western govts are now avoiding the term "ISIS" and now using "ISIL"(or what ever that term is) to deny them any reference to impling they are a country.
"RTT_Rules"

Or: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/09/17/france-is-ditching-the-islamic-state-name-and-replacing-it-with-a-label-the-group-hates/

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