Burke Rd Grade Separation (Gardiner)

 
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Thought I would start this thread up to chart progress on this project.
I went through the area the other day and I can say that preliminary work has started on service relocation.  A compound has been established near the substation and large parts to line reservation has been fenced off with work-tape.  I took the train from Gardiner to the city and saw that service relocation is taking place all the way to Tooronga Station  - although I hope any future grade separation at Tooronga is being taken into account.  I would suspect a similar amount of work is taking place towards Glen Iris.  Marks indicating underground services are all over Burke Rd, the tram reservation, and the Gardiner platforms.

According to the timeline poster that I spotted on the station, major work will start around mid-year and take a year to complete with a major shutdown of the crossing anticipated over January 2016.

Great to see work finally started on this project.

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  jamesadams7 Station Master

This may be too forward thinking for the short-sightedness of Victorian planning, but I hope there is some kind of thought being put into future tram changes in the area. Yarra Trams proposes splitting Route 72 at Gardiner Station, with one route operating University-Gardiner and the other Camberwell-Gardiner. The latter could potentially be extended south to Caulfield. If the route is simply split, then the island platform stop would need to be designed so that one route could terminate on one side, with the other route on the opposing side. Crossovers may therefore be required. Or if in the future, 72 is extended south, then there would need to be extra space for additional platforms/track, possibly similar to what was recently done at Victoria Gardens.
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
This may be too forward thinking for the short-sightedness of Victorian planning, but I hope there is some kind of thought being put into future tram changes in the area. Yarra Trams proposes splitting Route 72 at Gardiner Station, with one route operating University-Gardiner and the other Camberwell-Gardiner. The latter could potentially be extended south to Caulfield. If the route is simply split, then the island platform stop would need to be designed so that one route could terminate on one side, with the other route on the opposing side. Crossovers may therefore be required. Or if in the future, 72 is extended south, then there would need to be extra space for additional platforms/track, possibly similar to what was recently done at Victoria Gardens.
jamesadams7
If this is the case, why can't we have the trams terminating next to the actual station building? Or is that too European for Australia? I mean god forbid we might encourage someone to use a tram to get to a railway station...
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

This may be too forward thinking for the short-sightedness of Victorian planning, but I hope there is some kind of thought being put into future tram changes in the area. Yarra Trams proposes splitting Route 72 at Gardiner Station, with one route operating University-Gardiner and the other Camberwell-Gardiner. The latter could potentially be extended south to Caulfield. If the route is simply split, then the island platform stop would need to be designed so that one route could terminate on one side, with the other route on the opposing side. Crossovers may therefore be required. Or if in the future, 72 is extended south, then there would need to be extra space for additional platforms/track, possibly similar to what was recently done at Victoria Gardens.
jamesadams7

That's a very well documented point mate and a good question. Can anyone actually recall the last tram line that had extension works done to it though?? Cause i can't even think of one...

Extension i.e, increase the length of the route!
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

That's a very well documented point mate and a good question. Can anyone actually recall the last tram line that had extension works done to it though?? Cause i can't even think of one...

Extension i.e, increase the length of the route!
Grosso
Possibly in 2005 when the route 75 extension was completed to South Vermont. Not such a long time ago...
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
Can anyone actually recall the last tram line that had extension works done to it though?
Grosso
It'd be Collins Street in Docklands in 2014, but that was only about 700m.
I hope it didn't cost as much as this article suggested ($20 million).
http://www.engineeringcareer.net.au/news/36-million-to-extend-docklands-tramline
  jfan Chief Train Controller

The PDF download (massive ~26mb) from the link below has a centre terminating track in the plans... not saying that it is the actual track design but they must have got the idea from somewhere...

http://www.stonnington.vic.gov.au/residents-and-services/planning/strategic-planning-projects/structure-plans/malvern-road---burke-road-urban-design-framework/
  jamesadams7 Station Master

The PDF download (massive ~26mb) from the link below has a centre terminating track in the plans... not saying that it is the actual track design but they must have got the idea from somewhere...

http://www.stonnington.vic.gov.au/residents-and-services/planning/strategic-planning-projects/structure-plans/malvern-road---burke-road-urban-design-framework/
jfan
Quite right, thanks for the link. For those who are interested, on page 15 of the document, on zooming in on the map, you can see a small terminus to the south of the tram stop with connections from both tram tracks. If the routes are split, it will make it possible for the new Camberwell-Gardiner route to easily drop passengers at the platform and then continue into the terminus, with the driver switching sides and heading back the other way (similar to current operations at Melbourne University). However, I don't see how the University-Gardiner route will terminate or turn around, without reversing in and out of the terminus which would involve 4 movements. Maybe they plan to through route them all? I doubt it.

Obviously, little provision for if the route is ever extended southward, as regularly proposed (most recently by the Greens). But as others have stated, that's a slim possibility when you consider recent history. Even PTV's tram plan shows little to no planned extensions, save the 48 to Fishermans Bend and Connecting the routes along City Road Southbank. Speaking of which, does anyone know where it can be found online? It and the bus plan were unofficially uncovered through EWL traffic forecast documents IIRC.

EDIT: Found the tram extensions document on my computer if anyone's interested. Nothing proposed except shifting some routes around and the two mentioned above.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Maybe they plan to through route them all? I doubt it.
jamesadams7
On the Basel tram system In Switzerland, there Is a major stop (crew change stop) where route 15 changes to route 16 (viser versa) for a through running tram (the green trams with 2 trailers)
  Pcoder Station Staff

They really do need to schedule multiple removals on the Glen Waverley Line at the same time as there is too much unnecessary duplication with the grade separations. A good example of the duplication is bus replacements, which if these eradications were done at one, would only need to be hired once rather than multiple times.

It might even be a good option to delay this removal for a year (if needed) so that other removals could be planned on this line.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Wouldn't it be much cheaper to terminate the tram at Gardiner and (dare I say it) introduce a frequent bus on Burke Rd? The buses of Camberwell and surrounding areas (e.g. 548 which terminates at Burke/Cotham Rds) are downright laughable for such a built-up area.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
They really do need to schedule multiple removals on the Glen Waverley Line at the same time as there is too much unnecessary duplication with the grade separations. A good example of the duplication is bus replacements, which if these eradications were done at one, would only need to be hired once rather than multiple times.

It might even be a good option to delay this removal for a year (if needed) so that other removals could be planned on this line.
Pcoder
This idea should be applied to other lines as well, as trains would need to be terminated at the same locations for several different crossings, it would reduce the need for a disruption for each crossing.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Wouldn't it be much cheaper to terminate the tram at Gardiner and (dare I say it) introduce a frequent bus on Burke Rd? The buses of Camberwell and surrounding areas (e.g. 548 which terminates at Burke/Cotham Rds) are downright laughable for such a built-up area.
Heihachi_73
Are suggesting closure of the Burke Road Tramway ?
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
...I doubt that there's a local pollie that would even contemplate doing that. Myself, I'd prefer the entire length of Burke Rd that has trams would become a permanent Clearway.
Yet as things go that will never happen so I'll keep on being the darn fool driver that believes that there's a second lane, in other word that space between the parked cars and the yellow 'never enforced' fairway line.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Are [you] suggesting closure of the Burke Road Tramway ?
I dare said it. Smile

That or put Ws on the Camberwell-Gardiner section, if it must be retained for historic purposes. It would probably still be much more frequent than having the 548 extended (I baulked after seeing the 40-minutes-until-5:30 on Saturday and no Sunday service at all).

[armchair moment]
Move the trams which would have been on the 72 to the Alamein line by extending route 3 via the Outer Circle trail, freeing up a number of trains in the process (good luck with the NIMBYs, as well as erecting a huge bridge across the freeway, the Glen Waverley line and the golf course)
[/armchair moment]
  jamesadams7 Station Master

Route 72 up Burke Road is a very well patronised route. To act as a better cross-town service and connect the whole of Boroondara and Glen Eira, it just needs to be extended at least north to North Balwyn and south to Caulfield. I don't think extending to Ivanhoe would attract much patronage. If it was converted to a bus, it'd just cost a lot of money for new vehicles, removal of tracks and overhead wires, more drivers and would result in overall less patronage and less capacity.

I went along to a Yarra Trams session earlier this afternoon and heard some more information relating to the project. Thankfully, crossover termini will be installed on both sides of the tram stop, meaning it will be possible for both routes to terminate when the split at Gardiner does occur. Extension south to Caulfield was also taken into account but wasn't a major factor, and more infrastructure such as a third track may need to be built if it ever actually happens.

Was also told that it isn't planned to have the major shutdown for Gardiner until January next year... the wheels of government turn slowly.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Route 72 up Burke Road is a very well patronised route. To act as a better cross-town service and connect the whole of Boroondara and Glen Eira, it just needs to be extended at least north to North Balwyn and south to Caulfield. I don't think extending to Ivanhoe would attract much patronage. If it was converted to a bus, it'd just cost a lot of money for new vehicles, removal of tracks and overhead wires, more drivers and would result in overall less patronage and less capacity.
How many cities have gone down the path of

"Oh" the darn trams get In the way of the cars and clog the streets, let get rid of them and get the streets flowing again !

Look we will convert the overhead tram wires to double contact wires then Introduce trolley buses, that can pull over to the kerb at stops, clear of the through traffic and yeah every one wins !

But the people don't like trolley buses over trams, and patronage declines, car traffic Increases, street congestion surges out of control, trolley buses get slower and slower, patronage plummets, services get reduced.

The time comes when the trolley buses and over head wires need major overhaul, It's simply not viable to spend the money, so standard run of the stock city diesel buses run the routes as the old overhead wires come down.

Street traffic becomes hopelessly slow and extremely unproductive, so the Government Is forced to spend mega $$$ to build an underground railway / Metro / U Bahn / T Bana etc, to get people moving again.


Quote
I went along to a Yarra Trams session earlier this afternoon and heard some more information relating to the project. Thankfully, crossover termini will be installed on both sides of the tram stop, meaning it will be possible for both routes to terminate when the split at Gardiner does occur. Extension south to Caulfield was also taken into account but wasn't a major factor, and more infrastructure such as a third track may need to be built if it ever actually happens.


What do you mean about third track ? tram track ?
  gxh Junior Train Controller

Location: SE suburbs
Off topic, I know, but if tram route 72 is to be split, what about route 16?
Oh, silly me, it's not so long ago that routes 69 and 16 were combined!  Ah well, I suppose fashions change.
  jamesadams7 Station Master

What do you mean about third track ? tram track ?
Nightfire
A third tram track to get terminating and/or turning 72 (University-Gardiner) trams out of the way of through-running Caulfield-Camberwell trams.


Off topic, I know, but if tram route 72 is to be split, what about route 16?
gxh
Will also be split, but a little differently, with the new 16 absorbing some of the 64, running Kew-East Brighton. Here's the full plan that Yarra Trams are more or less following. Split of 112 into 12 and 11 was done recently, with merging of 55 and 8 (yellow line below) to occur soon.

  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
While I understand the integrated nature of this project meaning trams and trains will finally be separated (and the road as well), I also think that this project could have involved planning for future grade separations at High St, Tooronga Rd, Toorak Rd & Glenferrie Rd.  It would be nice to think that two could be done at once, but the disruption would have been horrendous. Given that Gardiner & Glen Iris stations are reasonably close to each other, logic would see dictate that these two crossings could have been grade separated together - I would think that the line would start dropping almost immediately after leaving Glen Iris.  There is a greater distance between Gardiner and Tooronga.
I find the tram discussion interesting, but perhaps it needs to be in the tramways section...?  This being said, if Glen Iris is ever grade separated, the Route 6 should be extended 200m with a terminus closer to the station.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
While I understand the integrated nature of this project meaning trams and trains will finally be separated (and the road as well), I also think that this project could have involved planning for future grade separations at High St, Tooronga Rd, Toorak Rd & Glenferrie Rd.  It would be nice to think that two could be done at once, but the disruption would have been horrendous. Given that Gardiner & Glen Iris stations are reasonably close to each other, logic would see dictate that these two crossings could have been grade separated together - I would think that the line would start dropping almost immediately after leaving Glen Iris.  There is a greater distance between Gardiner and Tooronga.
I find the tram discussion interesting, but perhaps it needs to be in the tramways section...?  This being said, if Glen Iris is ever grade separated, the Route 6 should be extended 200m with a terminus closer to the station.
jdekorte
Well they should complete all service relocation works at all nearby level crossings, while the railway Is out of service.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
A third tram track to get terminating and/or turning 72 (University-Gardiner) trams out of the way of through-running Caulfield-Camberwell trams.


Will also be split, but a little differently, with the new 16 absorbing some of the 64, running Kew-East Brighton. Here's the full plan that Yarra Trams are more or less following. Split of 112 into 12 and 11 was done recently, with merging of 55 and 8 (yellow line below) to occur soon.
jamesadams7
Do you if this will be occurring with the April TT change?
  jamesadams7 Station Master

Do you if this will be occurring with the April TT change?
railblogger

No idea to be honest! But considering I was told 8 and 55 merging would occur soon, then I assume that it will be April. Anyway, I guess we should get back on the topic of Gardiner.
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
If it was Glen Iris being done, I'd expect someone at AMRA Vic would setup a timelaps or a webcam.
  railperson Beginner

I was hoping someone might post progress photos as with previous crossing removals, but alas no. So as I had a free morning, I went down and took a few.








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