Interior color of SAR era open wagons?

 
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Can anyone tell me whether the SAR used to paint the interior of its O(whatever) and hopper wagons?

From the very small number of B&W photos that reveal the inside of the wagon, the hue looks very similar to the outside. It also looks reasonably light grey from the odd color photo that had the same angle, although I'd imagine that could easily also be from the load (eg fertilizer).

Unfortunately the wagons tend to be tarped in most 'above lip level' shots Smile.  Steamranger have a shot of some Ys in action renal lasting the line, and the interior looks very rusty, but that may be a function of both the loads carried  and a lack of repainting by AN over time.

Normal US practice was to not paint the interiors, which lead to them rusting very quickly.

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  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Most SAR opens or hoppers were not painted inside at all and any colour shown inside is more than likely overspray on them. Paint on the insides of open wagons and hoppers would not last long so it probably would not get painted. The usual inside colour would be rust!
  xdford Chief Train Controller

Can anyone tell me whether the SAR used to paint the interior of its O(whatever) and hopper wagons?

From the very small number of B&W photos that reveal the inside of the wagon, the hue looks very similar to the outside. It also looks reasonably light grey from the odd color photo that had the same angle, although I'd imagine that could easily also be from the load (eg fertilizer).

Unfortunately the wagons tend to be tarped in most 'above lip level' shots Smile.  Steamranger have a shot of some Ys in action renal lasting the line, and the interior looks very rusty, but that may be a function of both the loads carried  and a lack of repainting by AN over time.

Normal US practice was to not paint the interiors, which lead to them rusting very quickly.
SAR523
My direct experience was in 1971 when Islington completed some OB's and OBF's (possibly the last four wheelers built in Australia) and I am certain they were grey. What I cannot vouch for is whether the inside of the doors was Red or Grey ... I suspect Grey... Hope this helps. Hosk when he is about may be able to verify!

Regards

Trevor
  pjknife Assistant Commissioner

Location: Port Lincoln
Here's a photo by the late Barry Marshall (from Peninsula Pioneer Revisited) showing a Yx wagon being filled with bulk grain at Poochera in the 1970s. The exterior of the wagon is in the 1960s light grey with yellow doors, and the interior looks very much like the original dark grey which the vehicle would have carried from new (including the inside of the doors).

  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Nice photo Peter! If you reckon it's painted then I am more than happy to believe you, you don't happen to have more colour photos of SAR wagons in their original dark grey by chance?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The Insides of the wagon looks like polished steel to me (abrasion form the moving grain)

During the off season the polished steel would oxidise and form surface rust.
  xdford Chief Train Controller

The Insides of the wagon looks like polished steel to me (abrasion form the moving grain)

During the off season the polished steel would oxidise and form surface rust.
Nightfire
Hi All  Found the following

http://www.johnnyspages.com/jamestown_files/35_jst_td_274_3.jpg
also
http://www.johnnyspages.com/jamestown_files/35_jst_td_274_5.jpg

A colour photo also exists in the same pages

http://www.johnnyspages.com/jamestown_files/46a_jst_ng_rail_derailment.jpg




and it looks to me that they are painted but the paint is worn heavily... not surprising given the heavy duty these wagons would have been subjected to. I presume that some of these are Standard Gauge intended vehicles given the width(?)

Cheers

Trevor
  allan Chief Commissioner

Looks like a mix of (mostly) ON and OMN concentrates wagons, to me. Concentrates were (and still are) an evil load, smelly and very corrosive. The siding on these wagons was wooden, and any paint present would have had a very short life! The last photo shows a string of Y wagons, fitted with frames to carry (?) sewer pipe. The paint on the inside of these (wooden clad) wagons would have lasted well.

I, too, think that the wagon in Peter's photo has a polished steel internal finish.

But, I do have photos, taken in the 1990s, of ex-OX type wagons, that show interiors in light grey, except for the back of the pressings in the doors, sides and ends - though that is the majority of the inside of the wagon. (I'd upload the photos, but my desktop is severely indisposed, and I am working with a very limited computer...)

My suspicion is that when the SAR built, or rebuilt wagons, and  this was nearly all done at Islington Works, the inside of the wagon was painted the same base colour as the outside, but that subsequent repaints were on the outside, only. This would be counter-intuitive for wagons in grain traffic, where contamination could be an issue. AN, on the other hand, only painted the outsides of their wagons.
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
Jeez, you come out with some tripe DP, of course they would have painted the inside of all wagons when they were new, but then you will know a mate who knew a mate that told you they didn't!
I have to agree with Allan, they would have been painted when new, but not at repaints, but from memory very early AN repaints got a lick of grey on the inside, I only remember this because they never cleaned the wagons inside or out when they painted them, I do have a photo somewhere of an open truck with a coat of grey over a timber baulk and lump of weeds.
I don't think that lasted very long, the bean counters were into AN from day one and they weren't wasting any paint!
Grain trucks would have had that polished steel look because of the abrasive grain as mentioned and being tarped over much of the time helped, other open trucks such as Y trucks (which were never painted green anyway), O wagons etc certainly had a worn weathered looked but I can't remember any being totally rusty, rust patch's along the bottom and rust steaks from loads for sure but not all over.
But we are talking a long time ago.

I'm still here Trev, don't come very often though.

Wayne

Honest edit, just looked at Allans photos and they are pretty rusty inside!
  allan Chief Commissioner

"just looked at Allans photos and they are pretty rusty inside!"

And that is hardly surprising, to me. It is quite likely that these wagons had not turned a wheel in some years. At that time, large parts of the Dry Creek yards were packed with unloved wagons waiting to be recycled.

In those days, we only had to ask to be given the run of the yards!
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
The issue of load contamination had me wondering as well.  Perhaps it was felt that the interior paint was better than rust for tarped wagons?

Anyway, here is the colour shot that got me wondering in the first place:

http://www.johnnyspages.com/derailments_files/balhannah_3_0135.jpg

Unfortunately it's unclear whether the wagon we can see into is an OBf like its sibling further up the shot, but that looks like it could either be a very grimy light grey or the underlying steel revealed by wear from the load.  Or the grey could just be from a recent load Smile.

I've got to imagine that the O(whatevers) were stored pretty regularly un-tarped, and that it did rain on them, meaning that they probably were painted given the lack of obvious rust in this photo and the one from Peter.

It could be that AN adopted the US practice of not painting the interiors (where grain was normally transported by dedicated hopper cars, rather than in open gondolas anyway) or just whether we're capturing the cars more often once they're out of service and are rusting away.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The issue of load contamination had me wondering as well.  Perhaps it was felt that the interior paint was better than rust for tarped wagons?
SAR523
I was thinking about that too, but then I decided that even if the paint contained lead, the amount of lead or rust or whatever liberated into the grain on transit in the context of the quantity of grain wouldn't be of concern, we'd be talking almost immeasurable parts in trillions.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
My recollection of the OBFs that brought soda ash to Footscray C and the bogie wooden sided and floored opens (OWS/OWF ?) that brought the lead ingots from Pirie to Melbourne all those years ago is that they had originally been painted grey to match the exterior although not a lot of grey remained in most cases.
When AN painted everything green it was only on the outside as far as I can remember. Real cheap and nasty.
All from memory so open to correction but my impression is as above.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Unfortunately it's unclear whether the wagon we can see into is an OBf like its sibling further up the shot, but that looks like it could either be a very grimy light grey or the underlying steel revealed by wear from the load.  Or the grey could just be from a recent load Smile.
SAR523
It looks like an OB to me - there is one too many panels on the side facing us for an OBf. It also appears that there are only traces of paint left on the polished steel interior.

There also seems to be a lack of green in the grass in the photo, suggesting a summertime (grain haulage time) photo. Or am I drawing too long a bow?
  pjknife Assistant Commissioner

Location: Port Lincoln
Here's another one to throw into the mix for discussion. It's a standard gauge empty ore train at Dowd's Hill (it has just exited the old n.g. tunnel on the temporary alignment) heading for Broken Hill prior to the s.g. opening in January 1970. The ore wagons with the dirty interiors are ex n.g. OMN class, SOC on the standard gauge. The bright shiny ones in the middle are brand new SO class, and they have white-painted interiors.



Aside from these, I'm inclined to agree with the idea that the interiors of open wagons generally were at first painted the outside body colour, but subsequent repaints were exterior only.
  allan Chief Commissioner

SOs and SOCs were fibreglassed inside to protect the steel from the known corrosive properties of the lead and zinc concentrates. Earlier (narrow gauge) wagons had wooden sides, presumably for the same reason, though the narrow gauge wagons were emptied by particularly destructive grab cranes, while the SOs and SOCs were tippler wagons.

The SOCs (I think, without looking it up) were a very major rebuild of the OMN cars, which involved extending the sides, recladding in steel, and fitting tippler pads. They were, in effect, brought up to the standard of the new SO cars. Some of either the new or rebuilt wagons were fitted with narrow gauge bogies in 1968 or 1969 because of a shortage of ON and OMN wagons, presumably because the OMNs were being withdrawn for rebuilding, but probably also because it was felt that rebuilding the ON wagons that were knocked about while being emptied was something of a waste of money. At this time, also, some of the geriatric little X and Y wagons were also pressed into concentrates traffic: they must have leaked like sieves!

I've not yet found a photo that enables me to identify the standard gauge wagons on narrow gauge bogies, let alone their carrying capacity: perhaps the answer will be in the weekly notices of the time.
  allan Chief Commissioner

And, that's a really nice photo of a standard gauge 8300 van. I've really had enough of "train photos" that show the locomotive, and precious little else...
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
And, that's a really nice photo of a standard gauge 8300 van. I've really had enough of "train photos" that show the locomotive, and precious little else...
allan
+1
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Jeez, you come out with some tripe DP, of course they would have painted the inside of all wagons when they were new, but then you will know a mate who knew a mate that told you they didn't!
I have to agree with Allan, they would have been painted when new, but not at repaints, but from memory very early AN repaints got a lick of grey on the inside, I only remember this because they never cleaned the wagons inside or out when they painted them, I do have a photo somewhere of an open truck with a coat of grey over a timber baulk and lump of weeds.
I don't think that lasted very long, the bean counters were into AN from day one and they weren't wasting any paint!
Grain trucks would have had that polished steel look because of the abrasive grain as mentioned and being tarped over much of the time helped, other open trucks such as Y trucks (which were never painted green anyway), O wagons etc certainly had a worn weathered looked but I can't remember any being totally rusty, rust patch's along the bottom and rust steaks from loads for sure but not all over.
But we are talking a long time ago.

I'm still here Trev, don't come very often though.

Wayne

Honest edit, just looked at Allans photos and they are pretty rusty inside!
hosk1956
Really having a personal go at some one over something that would more or less be right is just childish. Painting the inside of stone hoppers for instance would be a sheer waste of time and paint to start with wouldn't it, the first load in one and there would be no paint really left. Open wagons would probably, and I say probably be the same as originally some may have been painted on the inside before being used for bulk products but later when converted to bulk wagons the last thing you would want is to contaminate any load place into a open wagon that was being used for bulk. Sure fertiliser is not going to be a problem but grain could be as any contamination of a load would result in it being rejected and the SAR then held held responsible for losing that wagon load. So they only painted the outsides of these wagons after a period of time. Also painting the interior of a grain wagon would end up eventually after a few trips with all the paint removed as well as the grain itself would act as an abrasive just like sand blasting, but a lot slower!

Remember other grain was transported in these wagons in bulk besides wheat!

Also to me that photo of the NG wagon appears to have a polished steel interior rather than being painted.
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
I have had some 'forced convalescent' days with a knee injury, so have been watching various DVD's, a overhead shot scene of a ballast train on the Clare line (NRM Archives vol 1) shows the ballast hoppers with painted interior but bare metal were the ballast was loaded up to ( like a distinct wavy tan line). In South Australian Railways In the Era of Steam Pt 2  brand new SOC wagons but in service on narrow gauge bogies have nice yellow interiors.
This is visual confirmation that new wagons recieved a coat of paint but that was rubbed away with various loads as said by many here, this is beside the opinion of people that worked in the railways and saw first hand new wagons being painted, ie, me, and I will repeat that wagons generally did not get internal painted when repainted, especially in the AN era.
The exception was the grain hoppers being built in my time, they didn't get internal paint, probably because of contamination issues as expressed earlier and perhaps difficulty, and to appease poor old DP, that would have been a waste of paint. Laughing

Wayne
  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT
Painted/unpainted... I don't really know but the photographic evidence here would suggest usually painted and then considerably worn.

As for contamination of grain, I can speak about. Part of the processing from grain to flour usually involves passing the material over a magnet to remove any metal bits. There are numerous opportunities from the harvester through to the grain mill to introduce steel fragments. There are several "sorting"/"Separating" steps for numerous bits, including metal.

Paint... I'm inclined to agree with Aaron, the concentration would be very tiny.... maybe not PPT, PPB perhaps??? SmileSmile
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
Having thought about this for a while, I don't think I've even seen the interior of a tipper truck painted for grain. Most these days are aluminium, but even the old school flat top grain bins aren't painted inside. The only thing done about contamination is making sure the trailers have been washed out before use.

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