Regional Rail Link for Seymour, Shepparton Line

 
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Through PTV's network development plan, V-line services will in future be diverted via the Upfield Line, to cater for the capacity needs of the Craigieburn Line. I believe that there is a better solution. The Albion East line consists mostly of one standard and one broad gauge line. However, the Broad Gauge line is in a rather poor condition, and has speed restrictions. If both lines are converted to dual gauge for the entire length of the line, then Broad Gauge freight, such as APEX quarry and Tocumwell Goods trains can operate much faster. However, if the Standard Gauge line is duplicated and converted to dual gauge beyond the Albion East Line from Jacana to Craigieburn, then there will be benefits for both Standard and Broad Gauge trains. If you have been to Roxburgh Park, you will know that freight trains wait for hours on the passing loop provided. Although, this could provide even more benefits. The Albion East Line joins the Sunbury line near Albion, which is only one station away from RRL. If a new V-Line only line is created to the city part of RRL, then V-lines to Seymour and Shepparton could be successfully diverted onto this line. This way, commuters travelling by car on near the Upfield Line won't have to wait even longer at level crossings.Little infrastructure should be required to implement this, and then after this, all V-lines will be able to share the benefits of the city RRL lines.



Okay, after reading some comments, I have thought of something else. Although I do not really know much about the capacity of the Bunbury Street Tunnel, if the standard gauge line into the city centre was converted into dual gauge, then broad gauge V-lines could completely avoid RRL, and little infrastructure would be required. Please comment of what you think of this.

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

So, another line of services crammed onto the already struggling RRL lines Sunshine-City?

No, that's absurd. Can you imagine the delays to 4/5 of Victoria's country rail network?

Anyway, Upfield line car travelers only need to deal with a 20 minute frequency all day, every day. That is some of the least disruptive in Melbourne. It's hard to see what problem your suggestion solves, and what the benefit of further clogging up a struggling freight line and RRL line is.

Anyway, dual gauge and VLP arrangements have gone so well in the past...
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
It'd be even worse when they build the airport line.
  BigTrain2015 Junior Train Controller

About time Vline started using the Upfield line again.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Get realistic .  RRL has capacity of 20 trains per hour in peak direction of travel .  So within a couple of years this capacity will be chewed up in each Peak hour by  Geelong/Wyndamvale 11, Ballarat / Bacchus Marsh 6,  Bendigo / Kyneton 3 . So no room for  Seymour and Goulburn Valleys.  The plan is to run VLP broad gauge  Seymour & Goulburn Valley via  Upfield where there are available Peak train paths, thus releasing VLP train paths via  Essendon and Broadmeadows to Metro.  Win/Win.  QED .
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I once made a suggestion of diverting some V Line trains via Upfield line to DOI and got a reply that it's a category 2 track which means it can only cater for P class locomotives and railcars.  So if ever the line is utilized by V line in the future, the only services to be re-routed would be those operated by Vlocity sets.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Seems to assume some kind of usable track between Upfield and Somerton.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Seems to assume some kind of usable track between Upfield and Somerton.
Lad_Porter
The distance from Upfield to the Criageburn/Seymour line is only 2800 metres, there's no major bridges and only one level crossing. By the look of it from Google earth the line is overgrown in places. But to resleeper and re rail the line should not be super expensive. I think you will find one of the reason why this option is one the table is because it can be put into action without it costing billions or causing much disruption..

woodford
  blowfish Junior Train Controller

However, you wouldn't want a flat junction with the standard gauge, so it will become costly with some sort of bridge (fly-over/dive) being built. Remember, the Upfield line will eventually be extended to Wallan.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

I once made a suggestion of diverting some V Line trains via Upfield line to DOI and got a reply that it's a category 2 track which means it can only cater for P class locomotives and railcars.  So if ever the line is utilized by V line in the future, the only services to be re-routed would be those operated by Vlocity sets.
route14
What you got was a typical  fob off response from the bureaucrats as to why they cannot do anything . The people in complaints and suggestions/feedback know absolutely nothing about transport, their prime job as spin doctors s  to fob off all complaints and suggestions with generic responses that tell you nothing, and politely say we could nt give a r----  a----- .

Like my recent complaint to PTV re gross overcrowding on Geelong weekend services , saying they need to be  beefed up 40 minute frequency,  got a response after 8 weeks that there are insufficient trains to run additional services, which is absolute   crap.  If VLP can run a 20 minute Weekday frequency with 3 and 6 car sets, then they can obviously run a 40 minute Weekend frequency with 6 car sets .  BUT no one is over seeing this nonsense, no one cares, its all spin and they are not really interested .  In Geelong we have a bus route with no stops over a distance of 1.7kms but PTV fail to react and put in stops, then wonder why people won't (cannot) use their new bus route - pathetic .

The reality is that there  is spare capacity on the Upfield line to take VLP  bg  Seymour and   Shepparton trains  , thus releasing paths via  Essendon to Metro .  It is part of a medium term plan previously foreshadowed.

It requires upgrading of the broad gauge track between Upfield and Somerton and  a new connection across the standard gauge line into the  broad gauge track pair towards  Craigieburn .
  M636C Minister for Railways

However, you wouldn't want a flat junction with the standard gauge, so it will become costly with some sort of bridge (fly-over/dive) being built. Remember, the Upfield line will eventually be extended to Wallan.
blowfish

Simple:

Convert the Upfield line and the Shepparton to SG, and route all North Eastern passenger trains that way.

Convert enough suburban trains to SG to operate the services to Wallan.

Now you have double track SG all the way to Wodonga...

With careful timetabling and platforms on some loop tracks you could avoid suburban trains delaying long distance trains.

Shepparton would be connected to the SG freight network ...... what's not to like?

M636C
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I once made a suggestion of diverting some V Line trains via Upfield line to DOI and got a reply that it's a category 2 track which means it can only cater for P class locomotives and railcars.  So if ever the line is utilized by V line in the future, the only services to be re-routed would be those operated by Vlocity sets.
What you got was a typical  fob off response from the bureaucrats as to why they cannot do anything . The people in complaints and suggestions/feedback know absolutely nothing about transport, their prime job as spin doctors s  to fob off all complaints and suggestions with generic responses that tell you nothing, and politely say we could nt give a r----  a----- .
kuldalai
The job of public relations in most orginisations is to protect the management from the public, in the end they do not have to be an expert in the company just to know enough to spin a line. A better result is usually obtained by going straight to the CEO he/she is usually the only one with his/her head on the block about company performance.

woodford
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Get realistic .  RRL has capacity of 20 trains per hour in peak direction of travel .  So within a couple of years this capacity will be chewed up in each Peak hour by  Geelong/Wyndamvale 11, Ballarat / Bacchus Marsh 6,  Bendigo / Kyneton 3 . So no room for  Seymour and Goulburn Valleys.  The plan is to run VLP broad gauge  Seymour & Goulburn Valley via  Upfield where there are available Peak train paths, thus releasing VLP train paths via  Essendon and Broadmeadows to Metro.  Win/Win.  QED .
kuldalai

I agree with you but can't understand why it takes sooo long for this to be worked out and the plan put into place?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner


It requires upgrading of the broad gauge track between Upfield and Somerton and  a new connection across the standard gauge line into the  broad gauge track pair towards  Craigieburn .
kuldalai
I can imagine duplication between Gowrie and Somerton would be part of that upgrade if it ever happens?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW

The reality is that there  is spare capacity on the Upfield line to take VLP  bg  Seymour and   Shepparton trains  , thus releasing paths via  Essendon to Metro .  It is part of a medium term plan previously foreshadowed.
kuldalai
How congested is Essendon now compared to Upfield?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner


The reality is that there  is spare capacity on the Upfield line to take VLP  bg  Seymour and   Shepparton trains  , thus releasing paths via  Essendon to Metro .  It is part of a medium term plan previously foreshadowed. How congested is Essendon now compared to Upfield?
james.au
According to this report, Essendon will be carrying 18 trains per hour at peak by 2022.  Presently it's about 10 per hour.
Upfield line is at 4 per hour, largely constrained by single track between Gowrie and Upfield.

http://archive-vicmps.greens.org.au/sites/greens.org.au/files/VLine_20_year_plan_pp60-69SMALL.pdf
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I can imagine duplication between Gowrie and Somerton would be part of that upgrade if it ever happens?
Carnot

I think this would be a given.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

I once made a suggestion of diverting some V Line trains via Upfield line to DOI and got a reply that it's a category 2 track which means it can only cater for P class locomotives and railcars.  So if ever the line is utilized by V line in the future, the only services to be re-routed would be those operated by Vlocity sets.
What you got was a typical  fob off response from the bureaucrats as to why they cannot do anything . The people in complaints and suggestions/feedback know absolutely nothing about transport, their prime job as spin doctors s  to fob off all complaints and suggestions with generic responses that tell you nothing, and politely say we could nt give a r----  a----- .
The job of public relations in most orginisations is to protect the management from the public, in the end they do not have to be an expert in the company just to know enough to spin a line. A better result is usually obtained by going straight to the CEO he/she is usually the only one with his/her head on the block about company performance.

woodford
woodford
BUT  you write to the  CEO  of  PTV or  VLP and they just refer it down to  the  spin doctors in the fob off  department .
Write to the Minister and you get referred to the same useless loop .
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I once made a suggestion of diverting some V Line trains via Upfield line to DOI and got a reply that it's a category 2 track which means it can only cater for P class locomotives and railcars.  So if ever the line is utilized by V line in the future, the only services to be re-routed would be those operated by Vlocity sets.
What you got was a typical  fob off response from the bureaucrats as to why they cannot do anything . The people in complaints and suggestions/feedback know absolutely nothing about transport, their prime job as spin doctors s  to fob off all complaints and suggestions with generic responses that tell you nothing, and politely say we could nt give a r----  a----- .
The job of public relations in most orginisations is to protect the management from the public, in the end they do not have to be an expert in the company just to know enough to spin a line. A better result is usually obtained by going straight to the CEO he/she is usually the only one with his/her head on the block about company performance.

woodford
BUT  you write to the  CEO  of  PTV or  VLP and they just refer it down to  the  spin doctors in the fob off  department .
Write to the Minister and you get referred to the same useless loop .
kuldalai
I of course am assuming one is communicating with some who actually cares, this is not always easy to find.

Another problem is if the CEO has been bombarded with complaints by people who are missinformed and therefore is unlikley to be paying to much attention, I sort of put John Fulllerton of ARTC in this category, although he __WILL__ listen if you have accurate information.

woodford
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen

It requires upgrading of the broad gauge track between Upfield and Somerton and  a new connection across the standard gauge line into the  broad gauge track pair towards  Craigieburn .I can imagine duplication between Gowrie and Somerton would be part of that upgrade if it ever happens?
Carnot
The distance from Upfield to the Criageburn/Seymour line is only 2800 metres, there's no major bridges and only one level crossing. By the look of it from Google earth the line is overgrown in places. But to resleeper and re rail the line should not be super expensive. I think you will find one of the reason why this option is one the table is because it can be put into action without it costing billions or causing much disruption..

woodford


Not such an inexpensive or non-disruptive exercise, if duplication from Gowrie to Somerton is required.  The old formation north of Upfield is only of single track width, and the existing track is severely deteriorated - you wouldn't even get a trolley to run on it now.  That whole section would have to be ripped up, widened, rebuilt and relaid.  Duplication from Gowrie would require extensive work in the Metro section, possibly requiring station rebuilds and grade separations.  And then there is the small matter of the stabling yard at Upfield, not to mention the SG line at Somerton..
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Something from left field so here goes.  

Has any thought been given to gauge converting the lines from Craigieburn to SCS via both routes and standardising these routes.  Seymour services would also be on SG with 3 tracks into Broadmeadows and then two SG into the city.  Alternate routing via Upfield also on SG into SCS.

Albury trains back via Essendon and Upfield if required.  XPT also perhaps?

It might sound radical but think it through for a moment.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
You would need DG, to allow existing Metro services to Craigieburn via Essendon, and to Upfield, to continue.  The alternative would be to convert some Metro trains (how many?) to SG - can't see that happening just yet.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Something from left field so here goes.  

Has any thought been given to gauge converting the lines from Craigieburn to SCS via both routes and standardising these routes.  Seymour services would also be on SG with 3 tracks into Broadmeadows and then two SG into the city.  Alternate routing via Upfield also on SG into SCS.

Albury trains back via Essendon and Upfield if required.  XPT also perhaps?

It might sound radical but think it through for a moment.
bevans
I like it

If Melbourne Metro goes ahead and splits their network into 5 operating segments, the Northern Group will contain these lines.  The only one not included would be Sunbury, which would be hard to SG given its the conduit to Bendigo/Swan Hill.  If separated, the metro trains that operate on the line will be semi isolated to that line anyway so operationally would be mostly ok.  The other thing to consider is the city circle and if SG these lines would impact it.

It would surely push the case for full network standardisation in Victoria along a fair way!

Remember too, you would have 3 paths into Melbourne on SG if the above happens, Upfield, Essendon and Albion-Jacana.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
Crikey, I'm getting deja vu here...

You'd want to pair the Craigieburn and Upfield/Wallan lines with other lines to get through-routing happening. Under the PTV 2012 Network Development Plan they would be paired with the Frankston and Sandringham lines, respectively. Upfield-Sandringham via the Flinders St Viaduct, Craigieburn-Frankston via the Northern & Caulfield Loop tunnels. That's got the added bonus of putting the Long Island steel train onto SG, eliminating transhipment at Dynon.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
@LancedDendrite - the business case is slowly building... Razz

You might also get the Kilmore East gravel train in SG to westall no?  Or wrong line?

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