Will this just about kill off the catholic church in Australia?

 
  br30453 Chief Train Controller

I was going to post into this thread but Aaron is doing a sterling job.

Also, a quote from David Silverman...

"But religion is not just incorrect, it is malevolent. It ruins lives, splits families, and justifies hatred and bigotry, all while claiming to be the source of morality. People die and suffer needlessly because of religion; such a waste.
As the late Christopher Hitchens said, “Religion poisons everything,” and that seems almost literal when we are talking about the minds it infects. It makes good people do bad things while thinking they are doing good—effectively turning good people into bad people, at least sometimes. Religion deserves to die.
Some (too many?) people call me a dick because I challenge the absurd notion that religion deserves respect by default. But religion is wrong for demanding respect simply for being, and even more wrong for demanding never to be questioned. Indeed, it is my duty as an American, as an atheist, and as a nice person to do what I can to take religion down—not by force, not by law, but by truth.
And the truth is quite simple: all religions are lies, and all believers are victims."
ParkesHub
What about the atheists who do bad things????

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  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
What about the atheists who do bad things????
br30453
What about me?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Stalin was an atheist but Hitler proclaimed himself to be a devout Catholic.

If you could come up with an "evil-doer" scale then I'm betting there would be no statistical difference between religious and non-religious people.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

Stalin was an atheist but Hitler proclaimed himself to be a devout Catholic.

If you could come up with an "evil-doer" scale then I'm betting there would be no statistical difference between religious and non-religious people.
don_dunstan
Doubt that about Hilter, Don.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Stalin was an atheist but Hitler proclaimed himself to be a devout Catholic.

If you could come up with an "evil-doer" scale then I'm betting there would be no statistical difference between religious and non-religious people.
Doubt that about Hilter, Don.
ParkesHub
Notice I used "proclaimed himself". At various stages he said publicly that he believed in God and that he was a practising Christian (in fact he forced religious instruction to be taught in schools) but secretly he told his confidant Albert Speer that he wanted to abolish all religions after they won the war.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

Stalin was an atheist but Hitler proclaimed himself to be a devout Catholic.

If you could come up with an "evil-doer" scale then I'm betting there would be no statistical difference between religious and non-religious people.
Doubt that about Hilter, Don.
Notice I used "proclaimed himself". At various stages he said publicly that he believed in God and that he was a practising Christian (in fact he forced religious instruction to be taught in schools) but secretly he told his confidant Albert Speer that he wanted to abolish all religions after they won the war.
don_dunstan
This article from Wiki is interesting...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Stalin was an atheist but Hitler proclaimed himself to be a devout Catholic.

If you could come up with an "evil-doer" scale then I'm betting there would be no statistical difference between religious and non-religious people.
Doubt that about Hilter, Don.
Notice I used "proclaimed himself". At various stages he said publicly that he believed in God and that he was a practising Christian (in fact he forced religious instruction to be taught in schools) but secretly he told his confidant Albert Speer that he wanted to abolish all religions after they won the war.
This article from Wiki is interesting...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
ParkesHub
The assertion Hitler would lie to protect his public image is hardly surprising.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
One problem with church stereotypes is they only fit some parishes and it usually comes down to the personality of the individual clergy or the personality of one of the non-ordained movers and shakers on the parish council. You can have adjoining parishes of the same branch of the same denomination in the same diocese with opposite attitudes. One priest I know makes no secret of the fact he gives a different sermon at the 8am and 10 am services as they attach a different type of crowd to each. You even find this difference when your regular clergy goes on holiday and the locum has a different attitude. Clergy from different seminaries of the same brand of church also can have different attitudes.  Another important factor is the distance the parish is away from the bishop especially if the bishop is a control freak.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Goebels was an excommunicated Catholic, for the final solution? No, doesn't the Vatican maybe wish that he was, instead excommunication came for marrying a Protestant. FACT!

Hitler was absolutely a Catholic, it ought not be questioned, and here's why - raise these points with a cherry picking Catholic and see how they cope. Despite what people may think, the Nazi's were religious, in Mein Kampf in the first page Hitler states that he's doing God's work - I think from memory the line is 'the work of our almighty creator' but I will stand corrected on that.

By order of the Vatican no less, Hitler's birthday was celebrated by churches every year of his life until he died.

One of the first treaties signed by the nationalist socialist dictatorship was signed with the Vatican, it exchanged political power for the church to teach in German schools.

The oath taken by Nazi officers referenced God. The belt buckles of the SS were embossed with 'God on our side'.

Hitler was no atheist.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

Goebels was an excommunicated Catholic, for the final solution? No, doesn't the Vatican maybe wish that he was, instead excommunication came for marrying a Protestant. FACT!

Hitler was absolutely a Catholic, it ought not be questioned, and here's why - raise these points with a cherry picking Catholic and see how they cope. Despite what people may think, the Nazi's were religious, in Mein Kampf in the first page Hitler states that he's doing God's work - I think from memory the line is 'the work of our almighty creator' but I will stand corrected on that.

By order of the Vatican no less, Hitler's birthday was celebrated by churches every year of his life until he died.

One of the first treaties signed by the nationalist socialist dictatorship was signed with the Vatican, it exchanged political power for the church to teach in German schools.

The oath taken by Nazi officers referenced God. The belt buckles of the SS were embossed with 'God on our side'.

Hitler was no atheist.
Aaron
I think Hitler was more opportunist than religious. What I'd be more interested in is the nexus between Mussolini and Pope Pius.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
And let's not forget the nexus between Pius XII and the Nazis.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
There was also Pope Pius XI. I think it was he who signed the treaty with the Nazis.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

There was also Pope Pius XI. I think it was he who signed the treaty with the Nazis.
Aaron
I think that was the Reichskonkordat in 1933.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
br30453 let me try and answer your question.

Organised religions draw their followers from society, the membership will be broadly representitive of the society from which it is located. It will feature those that do good and those that do not so good, or even do bad.

On that observation atheism is no different. You will find good atheists, not so good atheists and bad atheists.

Where religion differs is how it is all too often used an excuse or mitigating circumstance by those from within it who do less than good.

It's not too hard to think of a religious child being abused and told that it's in the name of God, or that God somehow suggests that the actions of the perpetrator are okay.

You will not find such abuses being committed under some guise of it being allowed according to atheism. Nor would you see a mitigating arguments made in court or the wider public arena based on perpetrator's atheist beliefs.

As an atheist I can quite happily say I am not advised to forgive, no, atheism allows me to regard such parasites as guilty for life.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
As an atheist...
Aaron
But of course atheism is a religion too. One definition of the word "religion" being "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons".
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

As an atheist...
But of course atheism is a religion too. One definition of the word "religion" being "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons".
Graham4405
You forgot this bit: "....the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power."

Commonly used dictionaries like Oxford, Merriam-Webster, Cambridge will elaborate further.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
As an atheist...
But of course atheism is a religion too. One definition of the word "religion" being "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons".
Graham4405
Please, I think I have demonstrated arguments fairly strongly in this thread, there is no need for you to go so easy on me.

I actually hope you, if you are indeed a 'theist', don't actually hold what you posted to be a real definition of religion. Really? You would allow your beliefs to be so incredibly simplified so as to potentially include 'Railpagism' as a religion? You would seek to allow a bunch of supporters of a sporting club to be classified as a religion? Suddenly they pay no tax, and membership 'donations' are a deductable? No, like many religious people, you simply say things you don't actually believe in or really mean to say in the first place. If you are religious, and I am not, then you should desire to have some stronger meaning attached to what it actually is that you believe in. Merely allowing the assignation of the term religion to almost every group seems to me to somewhat water down your own beliefs just a bit too much.

Anyway, so in rebuttal to your assertion about atheism being a religion I will make these points:

Better definitions of religion are as described with the 'ParksHub corollary' attached.

The reason a definition of religion needs the 'ParksHub corollary' is that the apparent origin of the word (see also the comment on the following line) in the Latin religio implies supernatural constraint. Therefore it would have to be understood that any definition leaving out the supernatural reference somewhat weakens the definition.

To the above, I prefer to think of the word religion as coming from the Latin religare which actually means to restrain or tie back, I unsurprisingly find religion to quite restrain the world of science and research (anyone for some stem cell research? Well most except those of religion).

I also think religion needs to be defined with some sort of reference to institution attached too, religion to me (as a strict outsider) seems to require the institution in addition to the belief alone, otherwise you suddenly have a group children who believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden lumped into a religious following. - A truly religious person, I do not believe would want their thoughts, ideas and practices polluted by such.

Atheists can have belief, but not in theism, there is no theos - no God.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner



The oath taken by Nazi officers referenced God. The belt buckles of the SS were embossed with 'God on our side'.

Aaron
The oath was taken by all Armed Forces members, not just officers. The start of the oath was "I swear by God" but the oath swore allegiance to Adolf Hitler. The Heer (Army) belt buckle had Gott Min Uns on it. The Waffen SS belt buckle had Mein Ehre Heist Treue - My loyalty is honour.

Heer Units routinely had a Chaplain and would hold services before battle. The Waffen SS did not usually have Chaplains, although many members of the SS still practised their faith.

Craig W
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
As an atheist...
But of course atheism is a religion too. One definition of the word "religion" being "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons".
Please, I think I have demonstrated arguments fairly strongly in this thread, there is no need for you to go so easy on me.

I actually hope you, if you are indeed a 'theist', don't actually hold what you posted to be a real definition of religion. Really? You would allow your beliefs to be so incredibly simplified so as to potentially include 'Railpagism' as a religion? You would seek to allow a bunch of supporters of a sporting club to be classified as a religion? Suddenly they pay no tax, and membership 'donations' are a deductable? No, like many religious people, you simply say things you don't actually believe in or really mean to say in the first place. If you are religious, and I am not, then you should desire to have some stronger meaning attached to what it actually is that you believe in. Merely allowing the assignation of the term religion to almost every group seems to me to somewhat water down your own beliefs just a bit too much.

Anyway, so in rebuttal to your assertion about atheism being a religion I will make these points:

Better definitions of religion are as described with the 'ParksHub corollary' attached.

The reason a definition of religion needs the 'ParksHub corollary' is that the apparent origin of the word (see also the comment on the following line) in the Latin religio implies supernatural constraint. Therefore it would have to be understood that any definition leaving out the supernatural reference somewhat weakens the definition.

To the above, I prefer to think of the word religion as coming from the Latin religare which actually means to restrain or tie back, I unsurprisingly find religion to quite restrain the world of science and research (anyone for some stem cell research? Well most except those of religion).

I also think religion needs to be defined with some sort of reference to institution attached too, religion to me (as a strict outsider) seems to require the institution in addition to the belief alone, otherwise you suddenly have a group children who believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden lumped into a religious following. - A truly religious person, I do not believe would want their thoughts, ideas and practices polluted by such.

Atheists can have belief, but not in theism, there is no theos - no God.
Aaron
My point was that "religion" and "God" are not necessarily connected. To keep it simplistic, there are many religions (belief systems) and many gods (objects of worship), but not all "religions" believe in the God of the Bible and not all believers in the God of the Bible belong to a "religion".
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Ellen DeGeneres will be a religion one day, you can see her setting herself up for deificiation as we speak. That's if Oprah or Disney doesn't beat her to it.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
It's been said that the major religion in Victoria is AFL.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
It's been said that the major religion in Victoria is AFL.
Valvegear
Yeah, sad but true.
Nothing matters here except the AFL which is a most incompetent organisation.
We also measure things down here in MCGs and Olympic swimming pools square metres and litres don't count anymore.
Many people here have a shoe size greater than their IQ.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Graham, what you actually said was that atheists have religion, that is plainly not true by any meaningful definition of religion.

Atheists are well aware that there are multiple religions each with their singular or multiple gods, it is one of the things that convinces us you're all wrong.

You may find someone that believes in a god but claims no religion, but I would dispute that, and suggest that whilst they may not practice it as such, they certainly have religion.

What is absolutely for sure is that atheists by their very definition have no God at all, not one of them, not yours, not anyone else's and on that basis alone, we have no religion either. That is in direct contrast to your initial, incorrect post.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Graham, what you actually said was that atheists have religion, that is plainly not true by any meaningful definition of religion.

Atheists are well aware that there are multiple religions each with their singular or multiple gods, it is one of the things that convinces us you're all wrong.

You may find someone that believes in a god but claims no religion, but I would dispute that, and suggest that whilst they may not practice it as such, they certainly have religion.

What is absolutely for sure is that atheists by their very definition have no God at all, not one of them, not yours, not anyone else's and on that basis alone, we have no religion either. That is in direct contrast to your initial, incorrect post.
Aaron
I will agree to differ on opinions and definitions.

Tell me, as an atheist do you believe that gods exist but simply not worship them or do you insist that no god exists? A definition of "atheism" is "the doctrine or belief that there is no God", however this is easily disproved as a definition of "god" is "any deified person or object", thus if I were to worship 3801, which clearly exists, it would be my god... Smile
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
Graham, what you actually said was that atheists have religion, that is plainly not true by any meaningful definition of religion.

Atheists are well aware that there are multiple religions each with their singular or multiple gods, it is one of the things that convinces us you're all wrong.

You may find someone that believes in a god but claims no religion, but I would dispute that, and suggest that whilst they may not practice it as such, they certainly have religion.

What is absolutely for sure is that atheists by their very definition have no God at all, not one of them, not yours, not anyone else's and on that basis alone, we have no religion either. That is in direct contrast to your initial, incorrect post.
I will agree to differ on opinions and definitions.

Tell me, as an atheist do you believe that gods exist but simply not worship them or do you insist that no god exists? A definition of "atheism" is "the doctrine or belief that there is no God", however this is easily disproved as a definition of "god" is "any deified person or object", thus if I were to worship 3801, which clearly exists, it would be my god... Smile
Graham4405
Yes, an outdated definition of atheism. I cannot speak for Aaron, but I am an Atheist, and I am also Agnostic. I don't believe in any god, however I don't claim to have knowledge of any gods non-existence either.

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