"The entity that acquired the tooling from Shrike would have had to pay for it."

Really, who said that? If you're the new owner of a stray dog, doesn't mean you paid for it!

Paul

Totally irrelevant analogy and frankly quite a stupid one.

Shrike payed for tooling, we know that it was acquired by someone prior to Ixion getting it. It's logical to assume that some form of payment was made to Shrike from that someone to transfer the ownership of the tooling.

It seems hardly fair to blame IXON for Shrikes problems.

The problem is that Shrike has for some reason stuffed up. The tooling has been sold (repossessed??) and sold to IXON.

If I had pre-payed (and I came close to doing this) I would be contacting whichever authority is relevant to attempt to get my money back from Shrike.

I note that Shrike refer to Phil Badger as being a "partner" and knowing his reputation and knowledge of model production in China to me the Shrike project sounded like it was a goer not a pipedream but now it seems Phil was only a "consultant" and it would have been better if this had been clarified by Shrike and by Phil as it put the whole project into a different light.  

If you are going to get angry and bombard anyone with questions it is Shrike - they have your money and the contract is between you and Shrike.

They've had to raise the price according to the costs in China and so the price has gone up $85 per model. If you don't want to pay this $85 then you miss out on your model. It's pretty simple.

I don't believe they can legally raise the price on already advertised price that people have already paid for. I certainly would not pay any extra for ANY item, I'd pay what the advertised price is.

Shrike advertised the price and the pre-order at Shrike's advertised price means a contract is in place with Shrike models.

Shrike have now decided for whatever reason not to proceed with the 30 class project and the tooling has subsequently been sold to another totally seperate company. ie: Ixion

Ixion have now decided to produce a 30 class. The source of the tooling is irrelevant here. If they simply purchased the tooling without pre-orders being part of the deal, Ixion are under *no* obligation whatsoever to even consider customers of Shrike models.

As I see it, Ixion are offering to provide Shrike customers with a C30T for only $85. At a guess, this would be no worse than the difference between the original Shrike price and the eventual Ixion price. If you don't like what I think is a fairly generous offer given that Ixion are under *no obligation* to you, feel free to try and get a refund from Shrike and then pay Ixion full price when the model finally lands.

ie:
- You purchased a C30T model from Shirke
- Shrike have your money and for whatever reason are unable to proceed with the C30T project
- Ixion are now producing a C30T
- Ixion are offering to sell paid up Shrike customers a C30T for $85 rather than $600+

As I see it, if you want a refund, this should be directed to Shrike. As for Ixion, I bet they already regret getting involved in this.

For the record, I'm just an interested observer. I have no stake in any project and I was put off pre-ordering after the Eureka R class debarcle and Austrains G/BL class.

Has anyone actually had any success in trying to contact Shrike?

Has anyone approached the 'relevant authority' to get a refund?  If so which authority?

It seems to me for those of us who want our money back and no longer want the model it would be more effective to approach such an authority together.

They've had to raise the price according to the costs in China and so the price has gone up $85 per model. If you don't want to pay this $85 then you miss out on your model. It's pretty simple.

I don't believe they can legally raise the price on already advertised price that people have already paid for. I certainly would not pay any extra for ANY item, I'd pay what the advertised price is.

Shrike advertised the price and the pre-order at Shrike's advertised price means a contract is in place with Shrike models.

Shrike have now decided for whatever reason not to proceed with the 30 class project and the tooling has subsequently been sold to another totally seperate company. ie: Ixion

Ixion have now decided to produce a 30 class. The source of the tooling is irrelevant here. If they simply purchased the tooling without pre-orders being part of the deal, Ixion are under *no* obligation whatsoever to even consider customers of Shrike models.

As I see it, Ixion are offering to provide Shrike customers with a C30T for only $85. At a guess, this would be no worse than the difference between the original Shrike price and the eventual Ixion price. If you don't like what I think is a fairly generous offer given that Ixion are under *no obligation* to you, feel free to try and get a refund from Shrike and then pay Ixion full price when the model finally lands.

ie:
- You purchased a C30T model from Shirke
- Shrike have your money and for whatever reason are unable to proceed with the C30T project
- Ixion are now producing a C30T
- Ixion are offering to sell paid up Shrike customers a C30T for $85 rather than $600+

As I see it, if you want a refund, this should be directed to Shrike. As for Ixion, I bet they already regret getting involved in this.

For the record, I'm just an interested observer. I have no stake in any project and I was put off pre-ordering after the Eureka R class debarcle and Austrains G/BL class.

The way I see it, liability for the pre-paid orders comes down to what is in the agreement  between Shrike and the mystery third party who acquired the tooling from Shrike. We simply don't know the answer to that question and probably never will as Geoff Hope has stated on the Shrike Facebook page that legal requirements preclude him from divulging any details of the agreement he has.

Did you read the 'press release' because it sounds like you didn't? They've said they will honour the shrike pre orders AT A LOSS. They will be losing $63,000 of their own money to honour these pre orders, something they don't have to do. They've had to raise the price according to the costs in China and so the price has gone up $85 per model. If you don't want to pay this $85 then you miss out on your model. It's pretty simple.

They are not losing 63K of their own money. They are foregoing a potential 63K of revenue. The actual cost to Ixion will be 135 units x the landed cost of the model, but this will be partially offset by the $85 extra payment that has been mentioned. The actual cost to them will be a (still substantial) 10--15K I would suggest.

There is a big difference between cost and revenue.

Craig W

So that revenue loss of $63,000   might be only about $15000 and that is offset by ($85 x 63) a penalty fee of $5355
Not a bad deal for Ixion if their Public Relations team avoids a big hit?
Rod

They've had to raise the price according to the costs in China and so the price has gone up $85 per model. If you don't want to pay this $85 then you miss out on your model. It's pretty simple.

I don't believe they can legally raise the price on already advertised price that people have already paid for. I certainly would not pay any extra for ANY item, I'd pay what the advertised price is.

Shrike advertised the price and the pre-order at Shrike's advertised price means a contract is in place with Shrike models.

Shrike have now decided for whatever reason not to proceed with the 30 class project and the tooling has subsequently been sold to another totally seperate company. ie: Ixion

Ixion have now decided to produce a 30 class. The source of the tooling is irrelevant here. If they simply purchased the tooling without pre-orders being part of the deal, Ixion are under *no* obligation whatsoever to even consider customers of Shrike models.

As I see it, Ixion are offering to provide Shrike customers with a C30T for only $85. At a guess, this would be no worse than the difference between the original Shrike price and the eventual Ixion price. If you don't like what I think is a fairly generous offer given that Ixion are under *no obligation* to you, feel free to try and get a refund from Shrike and then pay Ixion full price when the model finally lands.

ie:
- You purchased a C30T model from Shirke
- Shrike have your money and for whatever reason are unable to proceed with the C30T project
- Ixion are now producing a C30T
- Ixion are offering to sell paid up Shrike customers a C30T for $85 rather than $600+

As I see it, if you want a refund, this should be directed to Shrike. As for Ixion, I bet they already regret getting involved in this.

For the record, I'm just an interested observer. I have no stake in any project and I was put off pre-ordering after the Eureka R class debarcle and Austrains G/BL class.

The way I see it, liability for the pre-paid orders comes down to what is in the agreement  between Shrike and the mystery third party who acquired the tooling from Shrike. We simply don't know the answer to that question and probably never will as Geoff Hope has stated on the Shrike Facebook page that legal requirements preclude him from divulging any details of the agreement he has.

If shrike don't give refunds and then the customers go of to the different government departments .

Then a investigation into the shrike mess .

Then the customers will find out about the mystery owner of the tooling and where the money has gone.

Then maybe the government departments will make new laws about the pre orders problems of the hobby .

eg waiting many years for a product or just taking peoples money and losing it .

Has anyone actually had any success in trying to contact Shrike?

Has anyone approached the 'relevant authority' to get a refund?  If so which authority?

It seems to me for those of us who want our money back and no longer want the model it would be more effective to approach such an authority together.

There would be a lot of shrike customers that still would not know about what is going on . Not everyone on facebook or Railpage .

When the fair trade department or ACCC start to get a enough complaints they will join the dots and see that it involves several people to alot .

The first question they will asked is  '' have you asked for a refund in writing '' . ( from shrike )

So do that and keep a copy of it . Then ring the government departments to get pointed in the right direction to start the process of refund .

They've had to raise the price according to the costs in China and so the price has gone up $85 per model. If you don't want to pay this $85 then you miss out on your model. It's pretty simple.

I don't believe they can legally raise the price on already advertised price that people have already paid for. I certainly would not pay any extra for ANY item, I'd pay what the advertised price is.

Shrike advertised the price and the pre-order at Shrike's advertised price means a contract is in place with Shrike models.

Shrike have now decided for whatever reason not to proceed with the 30 class project and the tooling has subsequently been sold to another totally seperate company. ie: Ixion

Ixion have now decided to produce a 30 class. The source of the tooling is irrelevant here. If they simply purchased the tooling without pre-orders being part of the deal, Ixion are under *no* obligation whatsoever to even consider customers of Shrike models.

As I see it, Ixion are offering to provide Shrike customers with a C30T for only $85. At a guess, this would be no worse than the difference between the original Shrike price and the eventual Ixion price. If you don't like what I think is a fairly generous offer given that Ixion are under *no obligation* to you, feel free to try and get a refund from Shrike and then pay Ixion full price when the model finally lands.

ie:
- You purchased a C30T model from Shirke
- Shrike have your money and for whatever reason are unable to proceed with the C30T project
- Ixion are now producing a C30T
- Ixion are offering to sell paid up Shrike customers a C30T for $85 rather than $600+

As I see it, if you want a refund, this should be directed to Shrike. As for Ixion, I bet they already regret getting involved in this.

For the record, I'm just an interested observer. I have no stake in any project and I was put off pre-ordering after the Eureka R class debarcle and Austrains G/BL class.

The way I see it, liability for the pre-paid orders comes down to what is in the agreement  between Shrike and the mystery third party who acquired the tooling from Shrike. We simply don't know the answer to that question and probably never will as Geoff Hope has stated on the Shrike Facebook page that legal requirements preclude him from divulging any details of the agreement he has.

Can the gentleman from Ixion, seeing as you've commented prolifically on this thread, answer this question:  Do we pursue Shrike for a refund or is there more to be revealed that we should wait for?

Can the gentleman from Ixion, seeing as you've commented prolifically on this thread, answer this question:  Do we pursue Shrike for a refund or is there more to be revealed that we should wait for?

Why would Ixion answer that? They are not Shrike......

So far Big-Bear's suggestion above re: "have you asked (Shrike) for a refund (in writing)" first before pursuing the matter further with others seems a logical starting point, if that's the way you are heading.

Seeking a refund, that is.

Good Luck

Regards,

Catchpoint

Can the gentleman from Ixion, seeing as you've commented prolifically on this thread, answer this question:  Do we pursue Shrike for a refund or is there more to be revealed that we should wait for?
Why would Ixion answer that? They are not Shrike......

So far Big-Bear's suggestion above re: "have you asked (Shrike) for a refund (in writing)" first before pursuing the matter further with others seems a logical starting point, if that's the way you are heading.

Seeking a refund, that is.

Good Luck

Regards,

Catchpoint

Several times.  Currently writing my submission to NSW Fair Trading.

Okay, I've contacted Department of Fair Trading to see what the go is about the two main issues.

Okay, I've contacted Department of Fair Trading to see what the go is about the two main issues.

What do you see as the two main issues because judging by your previous comments on the subject you don't seem to have much understanding on the subject.

For those people looking for Shrike models details (  copied from their website ) before it disappears . maybe ?


SHRIKE MODELS HO scale models  made with ACCURACY.

PO BOX 4035 Marayong

NSW  - 2148

Australia.

email : shrikemodels@gmail.com

Phone: (in Australia) 0413 563 631

     (International) +61 413 563 631

ACN 166 204 655

NO quoting of whole post & I mean it.

To summarise:

DoFT said that IF amother company has taken over all the contract in full, then it's the company that took it over is responsible for any refunds, however it depends on what was handed over in the contract.

As for the paying extra, they said that the company that took over has to release the contract to justify paying the extra.

They didn't say that they could not not charge extra, it's whatever was handed over in the contract. They said it wasn't just "black & white"

I see references to the ACCC here, customers actually want to contact Fair Trading, or consumer affairs or whatever your state calls the organization.

Yes Newcastle Express, you seem to have been told similar to what I was thinking. Another part of the reason the intermediary in the tooling needs to be known. Contracts can pretty much say and do what they like, the only they can't actually do is prevent people excercising their full rights.

I see another argument, if customers of Shrike are not taken over by Ixion in the tooling transfer, then as Ixion say, those customers are still customers of Shrike. Shrike still has a contract to supply, they either must supply or pay out the value of the contract. Shrike have sold the tooling, but I see no reason that Shrike could not be forced to buy product from the tool owner (at whatever cost) to fulfill their customer's contracts.

I see references to the ACCC here, customers actually want to contact Fair Trading, or consumer affairs or whatever your state calls the organization.

Yes Newcastle Express, you seem to have been told similar to what I was thinking. Another part of the reason the intermediary in the tooling needs to be known. Contracts can pretty much say and do what they like, the only they can't actually do is prevent people excercising their full rights.

I see another argument, if customers of Shrike are not taken over by Ixion in the tooling transfer, then as Ixion say, those customers are still customers of Shrike. Shrike still has a contract to supply, they either must supply or pay out the value of the contract. Shrike have sold the tooling, but I see no reason that Shrike could not be forced to buy product from the tool owner (at whatever cost) to fulfill their customer's contracts.

Send Shrike the bill for the $85, I like it!

Gives Shrike a cheap way out to fulfill their (still existing) contract with existing pre-paid customers.


Paul

Whilst I appreciate that Ixion have indicated they will honour the Shrike 30T pre-pays, even though it will require a further payment of upto $85.00 (I know I'd rather pay about an 20% extra than loose it all), it does make one wonder what 'agreement' Shrike are talking about in a reply to a post on their facebook page where Shrike state "We have that agreement, I am not going to say more. Legal requirements preclude it.", what  is "that agreement'' -  is the agreement that the sale is still through Shrike or is it that that Ixion will honour the pre-pays, cause the wording is a bit ambiguous and does not really spell out clearly one way or the other, if anything it could be implied that Shrike where thinking that the Pre-pays would be honoured without any further payment required  - maybe they where thinking that they, Shrike, would buy the Pre-paid 30T's from Ixion to supply to the pre-paid purchasers, but seeing that Ixion have the list of Shrike pre-Paid customers that seems unlikely, though it's interesting that  the intermediate holder of the Shrike tooling had the list  - , just saying it would be nice to know what Shrike are thinking as they have gone awfully silent whereas Ixion have been quite forthcoming with their information.

Cheers Alex.

Geoff hope is up and about as he has removed some comments from shrikes models face book page .


One of the comments he didn't like was  ''' Company only saved when customers get their model at no extra cost or they get a full refund "


Which I thought was spot on the money


Now he is on the computer he just needs to do the balance transfers for the refunds now .

Did a post of mine go missing? I'll have to try and recall what I dreamt up this morning when I was only half awake and repost it.

It was a response to Paul and it said something like:

I am not suggesting that Shrike pay Ixion the $85 I am suggesting that Shrike need to regard themselves as customers of Ixion, and that they simply need to pay Ixion the retail rate they ask at landing (or some reduced amount for 'pre ordering') less any retail margin Ixion may be generous enough (or not) to extend.

I see no need for Ixion to be at reduced margin should they not wish to, and Shrike would seemingly have to honour the supply to their contracted customers.

Incidentally, a project running late is probably good enough reason for customers to break their contract to buy and request a refund. Not being able supply such a refund (i.e. Paying a bill due) is close to the definition of insolvency.

I think it is right for people who actually have money invested to be complaining.


How I'd like to inject some time out.

The timing of all this is very hard for all parties concerned.

Feb 10th 2016
"I have had some personal dramas over the last few months and I ask your indulgence. I also ask that fellow Christians pray for me and my issues, which include health and some depression items. I am not OK."  Geoff Hope.


So the man has major issues that have come at the worng time for everyone. As a hobbiest I can feel for the guy, as I too have had mnedical issues, and ( I believe) lost my job of 23 years as part of a redundancy purge. If he is in no condition to be lucid and healthy. This would affect  his business, and his handling of people, and what a time for it to occur with all the instence request for  his time.


Into this mix are Ixion Models, not ready for all this either.  They have no doubt been at sea with all this sudden demand, instand demand for information, with people already going for the lawyer ( as is their right )

So here's anpother development manhy may not realise:



Ian McIntyre posted in the facebook The Bigwato Model Railway Workshops group late last week:.

"At approximately 1100 yesterday morning (13/02), and within 100 metres of our meeting's location, there was a two car head on collision involving one of our members' vehicles. The cars involved were both written off. That members' car was the blue Mazda 6 of Phil Badger. Also in this car was Ross Balderson, Steve Mood, and Leon Bolton.

The following are the facts as I know them to be. Both Phil and Ross were transported by road ambulance to Bathurst Base Hospital for observation, and were released last night. Steve and Leon were airlifted by helicopter to Westmead Hospital with suspected multiple bone fractures, where they remain currently.

The six occupants of the other vehicle were a family from Sydney, and unfortunately one elderly lady did pass away at the scene.

I'm sure you all join with me in wishing our members a speedy recovery.

Found this ABC web story to back this up:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-13/three-treated-for-serious-injuries-after-two-car-crash-near-lit/7165904?section=nsw


So if this is the Same Phil Badger, I would think  he has other things on his mind other than model railway business. And by extension the businesses he deals with are without his total recall and time.  I am sure ixion are hobbles by this.


all this action has been within 9 days.  What a time.  It is as I said right thaf people want answers, and they want their money secure. No, I have not had any invlovement nor know the players. No I do not think there is a con man or a baddy, So no question about me, All I'm doing is monitoring the thread.

I just wanted to add the human element to the discussion. I'm not a unfeeling robot, and  not a cold hearted  person. I know there are many many people more than angry.  I also have no financial involvement at all in all this. Not a penny.

No need to reply, carry on....

Regards,
David Head

I think it is right for people who actually have money invested to be complaining.

...

...

"At approximately 1100 yesterday morning (13/02), and within 100 metres of our meeting's location, there was a two car head on collision involving one of our members' vehicles. The cars involved were both written off. That members' car was the blue Mazda 6 of Phil Badger. Also in this car was Ross Balderson, Steve Mood, and Leon Bolton.

The following are the facts as I know them to be. Both Phil and Ross were transported by road ambulance to Bathurst Base Hospital for observation, and were released last night. Steve and Leon were airlifted by helicopter to Westmead Hospital with suspected multiple bone fractures, where they remain currently.

The six occupants of the other vehicle were a family from Sydney, and unfortunately one elderly lady did pass away at the scene.

I'm sure you all join with me in wishing our members a speedy recovery.

Found this ABC web story to back this up:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-13/three-treated-for-serious-injuries-after-two-car-crash-near-lit/7165904?section=nsw


So if this is the Same Phil Badger, I would think  he has other things on his mind other than model railway business. And by extension the businesses he deals with are without his total recall and time.  I am sure ixion are hobbles by this.

...

No need to reply, carry on....

Regards,
David Head

It is the same Phil Badger - there is a photo in this link : Daily Liberal News Article
Glad he & the others are ok, sorry about the elderly lady that lost her life.

Regards Alex

Did a post of mine go missing? I'll have to try and recall what I dreamt up this morning when I was only half awake and repost it

I may have a screenshot of it.

Did a post of mine go missing? I'll have to try and recall what I dreamt up this morning when I was only half awake and repost it

I may have a screenshot of it.

Well at least I not going entirely crazy. Where did it go?

"At approximately 1100 yesterday morning (13/02), and within 100 metres of our meeting's location, there was a two car head on collision involving one of our members' vehicles. The cars involved were both written off. That members' car was the blue Mazda 6 of Phil Badger. Also in this car was Ross Balderson, Steve Mood, and Leon Bolton.

The following are the facts as I know them to be. Both Phil and Ross were transported by road ambulance to Bathurst Base Hospital for observation, and were released last night. Steve and Leon were airlifted by helicopter to Westmead Hospital with suspected multiple bone fractures, where they remain currently.

The six occupants of the other vehicle were a family from Sydney, and unfortunately one elderly lady did pass away at the scene.

I'm sure you all join with me in wishing our members a speedy recovery.

and that post Ian supplied was sourced from NMRA (US Model Railroad Group) Another picture appears to show Phill's Mazda and perhaps other clues.
http://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/3726755/one-dead-nine-injured-in-head-on/?cs=115

Rod Young