Sky rail for Pakenham Cranbourne line outlined

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 13 Jan 2016 16:51
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Skyrail should be built between Caulfield and Oakleigh.
The property owners next to the rail line.... quit your whinging. The government should tell them bad luck, property values may go up instead of downwards.
When Skyrail is built, it MUST allow room for future expansion to 4 rail tracks. If they build 2 single track bridges, make sure the horizontal gap between them is a minimum of 7.32m (2*3.66m).
Sorry Tom, but I understand why they are whinging. Because it is a Political Exercise. (Yet Again). Again it is treating one electorate with contempt and another with kid gloves. Nowhere on the Frankston Corridor is this being put forward. Why? Because that corridor holds a number of Marginal seats, which could break or return Governments. The Dandenong Corridor does not, pure and simple. In effect they are saying that the people of Oakleigh and Clayton are less important than the people of Bentleigh, McKinnon and Aspendale. A good idea carried out for the wrong reasons!!!


Michael
mejhammers1
All projects that require any amount of rearranging of existing services will be a major politcal exercise because it will ALWAYS come with some risk to the standing government. This is in why so few of such projects are done if it is in any way contraversial. Such projects are usually only put up when the standing government can see no other way out, the Caulfield Dandenong project is an excellent example of this thinking.

People in a popularly elected governement and in large companies will always be conservative as they see it as they have there neck on the line.

woodford

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  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
It will be Interesting what the Government comes up for the level crossings along the sand belt Suburbs.

Between Mordialloc Creek and Kananook Creek there are 11 level crossing with 9 of them crossing over between Station Street and Nepean Highway.

If a new Station Street bridge was built over the Paterson River at Carrum, Station Street could be used for the baulk of North South local traffic.
East West traffic would seam to be limited (due to the presence of the Bay)

Eel Race Road Is planed for elimination, If Station Street Aspendale (near Mordialloc Creek) was put on the list and say about 3 other grade separated crossover places between Station Street crossing and Eel Race Road.

With the railway largely staying at It's present level (just the streets rearranged around It)
Nightfire
As I understand it, at some of the crossings close to the beach, the water table is too high to allow cuttings or trenches to put rail under.  If so, in each case it would mean one of:  do nothing, close the crossing, put road over, put rail over, or have an elevated railway.  Happy to be corrected on that.
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

It will be Interesting what the Government comes up for the level crossings along the sand belt Suburbs.

Between Mordialloc Creek and Kananook Creek there are 11 level crossing with 9 of them crossing over between Station Street and Nepean Highway.

If a new Station Street bridge was built over the Paterson River at Carrum, Station Street could be used for the baulk of North South local traffic.
East West traffic would seam to be limited (due to the presence of the Bay)

Eel Race Road Is planed for elimination, If Station Street Aspendale (near Mordialloc Creek) was put on the list and say about 3 other grade separated crossover places between Station Street crossing and Eel Race Road.

With the railway largely staying at It's present level (just the streets rearranged around It)
As I understand it, at some of the crossings close to the beach, the water table is too high to allow cuttings or trenches to put rail under.  If so, in each case it would mean one of:  do nothing, close the crossing, put road over, put rail over, or have an elevated railway.  Happy to be corrected on that.
Lad_Porter

Rail can still be put under the road mate, it's a matter of 'how deep are your pockets?'
Sky-rail will be the cheapest way to go without a doubt, however, knowing that marginal seats that side of town is... The government will struggle with there case to the public out there in my opinion.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Apparently the Premier said on radio this morning that the Longford Gas Pipeline was a strong factor in deciding that a 'skyrail' option would be used. Any idea where this pipeline is located in proximity to the railway? I am aware that are infrastructure mains near the existing line - obviously for some of them the relocation costs would be huge. I remember there was a similar situation to move part of a gas main at the Anderson Rd separation in Sunshine (road under).
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I understand the main oil and gas main pipeline from Longford goes to Long Island than onto Altona/Newport area via under the bay ?

Yes sure there could be a trunk gas main through Caulfield ?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I understand the main oil and gas main pipeline from Longford goes to Long Island than onto Altona/Newport area via under the bay ?

Yes sure there could be a trunk gas main through Caulfield ?
Nightfire

There is a petroleum line which does across the bay into Altona and to Geelong.

Thinking more about the 4 story high rail line proposal (more facts about the proposed line are now coming to light as time goes on) this is going to be very hard to sell to the public.  1 story yes, but what is proposed will stick out like a sore thumb!
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I understand the main oil and gas main pipeline from Longford goes to Long Island than onto Altona/Newport area via under the bay ?

Yes sure there could be a trunk gas main through Caulfield ?
Nightfire
I've been doing a bit of reading. There is a pipeline from Longford to Long Island but that distributes other fuel products for export a the Long Island jetty. There is another pipeline from Longford to Dandenong. At Dandenong the gas pressure is lowered for distribution - apparently this plant at Dandenong handles 60% of Melbourne's gas supply. I would suspect that from Dandenong there is another mains that runs directly into Melbourne area using the railway line corridor. I found this interesting report from 1968 (Victorian Pipelines Commission) on the initial construction of the main pipeline from Longford to the Dandenong city gate - the last page has a map. http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/papers/govpub/VPARL1968-69No12.pdf

I live opposite the railway line between Caulfield & Malvern. I know that there is a high pressure gas main between the railway embankment & Dandenong Rd so this must the mains they are talking about.

And on the current debates about Skyrail & trenches, I understand that landholders abutting the railway line are entitled to a bit of selfishness regarding the proposed designs. However, they are but one stakeholder out of many - train passengers, operators, motorists, cyclists, buses all have a say in this. It's actually much bigger than just houses next to the line. I have my own opinions based on information in the Caulfield - Dandenong Consultation Report (November 2015) and I think the suburbs will lose quite a bit if that railway is put in a trench. Page 12 underlines the shining of LXRA re presenting the project and pages 14 & 15 indicate that quite a number of respondents were suggesting a rail over solution: http://levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/34455/Caulfield-to-Dandenong-consultation-report-November-2015.pdf
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A couple of points for the discussion, not in any order.............................

No one knows the future ANY compensation for land value can only be desided AFTER the works are completed, if you sell anything on the expectation of a price move, THATS YOUR PROBLEM, after all thats speculation, ie betting on the future.

There's a double standard at work here (what a surprise!!), if a railway project causes land values to rise the current landholders are saying this should be for out benefit, now they are saying if it goes down we should be compensated, you can have one or the other!

At what point is this "4 story high" measurement taken, the under bridge clearance, track level, top of the guard rails or the stations roof, the media have a VERY NASTY habit of picking the worst case and turning it into a general case.

There is a distinct possibility that are much improved Packenham, Cranbourne and Dandenong line service will result in a major improvement in land values, guess who will be trying to keep this money all to themselves.

Melbourne is one of the very few cities that are very spread out, we are currently paying a very high price in infrastructure problems. THe metro area simply cannot keep spreading out and has to to some extent go medum high rise (2 to 4 stories) as in almost ALL other major metro areas.

woodford
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways
  slowcoach Locomotive Driver

It will be Interesting what the Government comes up for the level crossings along the sand belt Suburbs.

Between Mordialloc Creek and Kananook Creek there are 11 level crossing with 9 of them crossing over between Station Street and Nepean Highway.

If a new Station Street bridge was built over the Paterson River at Carrum, Station Street could be used for the baulk of North South local traffic.
East West traffic would seam to be limited (due to the presence of the Bay)

Eel Race Road Is planed for elimination, If Station Street Aspendale (near Mordialloc Creek) was put on the list and say about 3 other grade separated crossover places between Station Street crossing and Eel Race Road.

With the railway largely staying at It's present level (just the streets rearranged around It)
As I understand it, at some of the crossings close to the beach, the water table is too high to allow cuttings or trenches to put rail under.  If so, in each case it would mean one of:  do nothing, close the crossing, put road over, put rail over, or have an elevated railway.  Happy to be corrected on that.

Rail can still be put under the road mate, it's a matter of 'how deep are your pockets?'
Sky-rail will be the cheapest way to go without a doubt, however, knowing that marginal seats that side of town is... The government will struggle with there case to the public out there in my opinion.
mickamious
Mate, do you live along the sand belt electorates? Have u ever been to the beaches there? e.g. Mordialloc, Chelsea and Frankston. The sea is literally metres from the rail line. With a high water table, do u want to risk significant flooding into those trenches causing more disruption, more bustitution, possible drowning of construction workers doing all the hard work, formation of potholes that will sink homes meaning more cost and compensation to clean up the wet mess? Your train line may never return to normal revenue service for years instead of months. Do u really want that to happen?
  Bulbous Assistant Commissioner

No one knows the future ANY compensation for land value can only be desided AFTER the works are completed, if you sell anything on the expectation of a price move, THATS YOUR PROBLEM, after all thats speculation, ie betting on the future.
woodford


Under current systems in the West, the property is valued against current rates in the area, assuming there will be no change in the input information, to gauge the current day value of the property. This is prior to any works progressing. We then will add a percentage on top to allow for "goodwill" (usually around 10% to 12%) and make the offer. Should this be refused, there will be the usual mediation and then progress to compulsory acquisition if required. This will happen at the set valuation only, no top up.

At what point is this "4 story high" measurement taken, the under bridge clearance, track level, top of the guard rails or the stations roof, the media have a VERY NASTY habit of picking the worst case and turning it into a general case.
woodford


I would assume that the clearance under the bridge will be around 5.0m - allowing for 4.6m high trucks. Then add on another 1.6m to 2.0m from the bottom of the bridge to the top of rail. Then allow 7m to top of mast for electrification, which would give roughly 14m in total height. This would be close enough to (slightly over) four stories for some good scaremongering in the media.

Matt
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
It will be Interesting what the Government comes up for the level crossings along the sand belt Suburbs.

Between Mordialloc Creek and Kananook Creek there are 11 level crossing with 9 of them crossing over between Station Street and Nepean Highway.

If a new Station Street bridge was built over the Paterson River at Carrum, Station Street could be used for the baulk of North South local traffic.
East West traffic would seam to be limited (due to the presence of the Bay)

Eel Race Road Is planed for elimination, If Station Street Aspendale (near Mordialloc Creek) was put on the list and say about 3 other grade separated crossover places between Station Street crossing and Eel Race Road.

With the railway largely staying at It's present level (just the streets rearranged around It)
As I understand it, at some of the crossings close to the beach, the water table is too high to allow cuttings or trenches to put rail under.  If so, in each case it would mean one of:  do nothing, close the crossing, put road over, put rail over, or have an elevated railway.  Happy to be corrected on that.

Rail can still be put under the road mate, it's a matter of 'how deep are your pockets?'
Sky-rail will be the cheapest way to go without a doubt, however, knowing that marginal seats that side of town is... The government will struggle with there case to the public out there in my opinion.
Mate, do you live along the sand belt electorates? Have u ever been to the beaches there? e.g. Mordialloc, Chelsea and Frankston. The sea is literally metres from the rail line. With a high water table, do u want to risk significant flooding into those trenches causing more disruption, more bustitution, possible drowning of construction workers doing all the hard work, formation of potholes that will sink homes meaning more cost and compensation to clean up the wet mess? Your train line may never return to normal revenue service for years instead of months. Do u really want that to happen?
slowcoach
Yes, geology will be an important factor in picking the methods of crossing removal.  As I understand it, the railway and Nepean Hwy are built on a raised sandbank that basically blocked the waters of the Carrum Carrum swamp from draining.  It wasn't until other drains were connected to Mordialloc Ck & Kannanook Ck that drainage was started in the area. And the construction of the Patterson River was enabled by punching through the sand bank at Carrum.  The water is almost constantly drained from this area now - travelling the line you can see where the bank is as land to the East of the line slopes away from the railway. Trenching will be extremely difficult and dangerous. They're having enough trouble with problematic soils, large drains and high water at Ormond/McKinnon/Bentleigh.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I was provided with a link to the full report that was quoted in this morning's Age article. It is very interesting reading, especially with the different case studies of grade separation projects in Melbourne. The full report can be downloaded from this page: http://msd.unimelb.edu.au/level-crossing-removals-learning-from-melbournes-experience
I won't cross post this into the 50 level crossing removal thread.
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
Im rather interested to know  who amongst your fine contributors might actually live on one of these affected lines at a location that would be greatly changed by the building of a skytrain ?
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
I dislike and disagree with that report's belief that those car parks are underutilised land, they might be during the night, but during business hours there's not enough. Do they really expect me to travel to Balaclava via PT from Scorsby then head off to my next job, which might be in a PT dead zone?
  ljayvee Beginner

Hopefully any elevated railway will have sound attenuating features. I know it has been there since the late Permian era, but the elevated railway just out of Southern Cross going to Flinders street seems to have been made with a noise amplifier designed in. That area seems to make an awful racket when trains operate!

Sky rail for Pakenham Cranbourne line outlined
3l diesel
The construction of the 'sky rail' will mean that the South Gippsland Line will never be able to be reconnected to the main network.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Hopefully any elevated railway will have sound attenuating features. I know it has been there since the late Permian era, but the elevated railway just out of Southern Cross going to Flinders street seems to have been made with a noise amplifier designed in. That area seems to make an awful racket when trains operate!

Sky rail for Pakenham Cranbourne line outlined
The construction of the 'sky rail' will mean that the South Gippsland Line will never be able to be reconnected to the main network.
ljayvee
Please excuse my ignorance, but why?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Skyrail should be built between Caulfield and Oakleigh.
The property owners next to the rail line.... quit your whinging. The government should tell them bad luck, property values may go up instead of downwards.
When Skyrail is built, it MUST allow room for future expansion to 4 rail tracks. If they build 2 single track bridges, make sure the horizontal gap between them is a minimum of 7.32m (2*3.66m).
tom9876543
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9ajvirmsa7rrsf/overhead-160301-01-crop.jpg...

If this Is anything to go by (plucked from the Noskyrail group, very amusing some of the Ideas they bang on about, trains falling off bridges, the sky falling In etc)

Given that the new viaducts will be built each side of the existing track double line (apart from near Grange Road, where It seams a little odd)

The gap between the viaducts should be wide enough for additional 2 elevated tracks, but come the stations (being Island platforms) the 3 elevated tracks would need to be reconfigured to let express tracks through on a straight alignment !

One problem with 2 additional tracks between Caulfield and Dandenong, what happens at Caulfield ? a big bottleneck mess ?
Really another 2 tracks needs to be pushed trough from Caulfield to South Yarra (great fun planning that)
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
The construction of the 'sky rail' will mean that the South Gippsland Line will never be able to be reconnected to the main network.
ljayvee
Cranbourne is on the South Gippsland line, and there is talk of a possible extension.  What do you mean?
  bramt Deputy Commissioner


And on the current debates about Skyrail & trenches, I understand that landholders abutting the railway line are entitled to a bit of selfishness regarding the proposed designs. However, they are but one stakeholder out of many - train passengers, operators, motorists, cyclists, buses all have a say in this. It's actually much bigger than just houses next to the line. I have my own opinions based on information in the Caulfield - Dandenong Consultation Report (November 2015) and I think the suburbs will lose quite a bit if that railway is put in a trench. Page 12 underlines the shining of LXRA re presenting the project and pages 14 & 15 indicate that quite a number of respondents were suggesting a rail over solution: http://levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/34455/Caulfield-to-Dandenong-consultation-report-November-2015.pdf
jdekorte

Interesting error in that report, page 15:
"Police and Public Safety Officers (PSOs) – reducing the need for police or providing more of a police presence and PSOs."
You'd expect them to know what they're called!
It also doesn't make sense, it's two contradictory statements. Reduce the need for police, vs provide more police presence. Huh?
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

It will be Interesting what the Government comes up for the level crossings along the sand belt Suburbs.

Between Mordialloc Creek and Kananook Creek there are 11 level crossing with 9 of them crossing over between Station Street and Nepean Highway.

If a new Station Street bridge was built over the Paterson River at Carrum, Station Street could be used for the baulk of North South local traffic.
East West traffic would seam to be limited (due to the presence of the Bay)

Eel Race Road Is planed for elimination, If Station Street Aspendale (near Mordialloc Creek) was put on the list and say about 3 other grade separated crossover places between Station Street crossing and Eel Race Road.

With the railway largely staying at It's present level (just the streets rearranged around It)
As I understand it, at some of the crossings close to the beach, the water table is too high to allow cuttings or trenches to put rail under.  If so, in each case it would mean one of:  do nothing, close the crossing, put road over, put rail over, or have an elevated railway.  Happy to be corrected on that.

Rail can still be put under the road mate, it's a matter of 'how deep are your pockets?'
Sky-rail will be the cheapest way to go without a doubt, however, knowing that marginal seats that side of town is... The government will struggle with there case to the public out there in my opinion.
Mate, do you live along the sand belt electorates? Have u ever been to the beaches there? e.g. Mordialloc, Chelsea and Frankston. The sea is literally metres from the rail line. With a high water table, do u want to risk significant flooding into those trenches causing more disruption, more bustitution, possible drowning of construction workers doing all the hard work, formation of potholes that will sink homes meaning more cost and compensation to clean up the wet mess? Your train line may never return to normal revenue service for years instead of months. Do u really want that to happen?
slowcoach

If you have no idea in how excavation/benching/shoring and construction works occur in these areas, please don't talk again, don't even comment.
I've done enough basement digs in the area and believe me, it can be done but at significant cost.
Possibility of injury, death and any other associated construction risk is relevant on all construction sites regardless if they're near the bay or not.
I want the grade separations constructed correctly, i don't want my tax payer $$$'s which i pay being wasted on a cheap, easy and nasty fix.

Just a thought for you, you have 2 types of material towards Frankston and it will vary.
You have Brighton group material and the sand belt material but i'm not going to bother and waste my time explaining geology and how things can be constructed in these areas.

Mind you, the Metro Rail Tunnel is going to be built in a more hostile environment and potentially more dangerous environment then the sand belt area, considering it'll be built below the water table and also in 'crude island silt' which has practically Nil CBR content but hey, what do i know?
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
It will be Interesting what the Government comes up for the level crossings along the sand belt Suburbs.

Between Mordialloc Creek and Kananook Creek there are 11 level crossing with 9 of them crossing over between Station Street and Nepean Highway.

If a new Station Street bridge was built over the Paterson River at Carrum, Station Street could be used for the baulk of North South local traffic.
East West traffic would seam to be limited (due to the presence of the Bay)

Eel Race Road Is planed for elimination, If Station Street Aspendale (near Mordialloc Creek) was put on the list and say about 3 other grade separated crossover places between Station Street crossing and Eel Race Road.

With the railway largely staying at It's present level (just the streets rearranged around It)
As I understand it, at some of the crossings close to the beach, the water table is too high to allow cuttings or trenches to put rail under.  If so, in each case it would mean one of:  do nothing, close the crossing, put road over, put rail over, or have an elevated railway.  Happy to be corrected on that.

Rail can still be put under the road mate, it's a matter of 'how deep are your pockets?'
Sky-rail will be the cheapest way to go without a doubt, however, knowing that marginal seats that side of town is... The government will struggle with there case to the public out there in my opinion.
Mate, do you live along the sand belt electorates? Have u ever been to the beaches there? e.g. Mordialloc, Chelsea and Frankston. The sea is literally metres from the rail line. With a high water table, do u want to risk significant flooding into those trenches causing more disruption, more bustitution, possible drowning of construction workers doing all the hard work, formation of potholes that will sink homes meaning more cost and compensation to clean up the wet mess? Your train line may never return to normal revenue service for years instead of months. Do u really want that to happen?

If you have no idea in how excavation/benching/shoring and construction works occur in these areas, please don't talk again, don't even comment.
I've done enough basement digs in the area and believe me, it can be done but at significant cost.
Possibility of injury, death and any other associated construction risk is relevant on all construction sites regardless if they're near the bay or not.
I want the grade separations constructed correctly, i don't want my tax payer $$$'s which i pay being wasted on a cheap, easy and nasty fix.

Just a thought for you, you have 2 types of material towards Frankston and it will vary.
You have Brighton group material and the sand belt material but i'm not going to bother and waste my time explaining geology and how things can be constructed in these areas.

Mind you, the Metro Rail Tunnel is going to be built in a more hostile environment and potentially more dangerous environment then the sand belt area, considering it'll be built below the water table and also in 'crude island silt' which has practically Nil CBR content but hey, what do i know?
mickamious
The Metro Rail Tunnel is a tunnel i e completely enclosed .
The Frankston line if it is lo be lowered will be in a cutting or trench; is not that a different proposition and how do you keep the water out ? Particularly from the stations ?
  62440 Chief Commissioner

If you want to see a railway sunk in rubbish ground, go to Perth Esplanade, there is plenty of experience within the industry.
  ossi2 Station Staff

Pylons of skytrain in the Girdwood Avenue area are planned to be about 3m from the APA gas transmission pipeline
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.

One problem with 2 additional tracks between Caulfield and Dandenong, what happens at Caulfield ? a big bottleneck mess ?
Really another 2 tracks needs to be pushed trough from Caulfield to South Yarra (great fun planning that)
Nightfire
Which is why, apart from cost, that I find it bemusing that the eastern Metro portal will be near South Yarra (where there is no congestion) rather than just east of Caulfield, where it would accept the 2 additional tracks that you speak of.

The new pair would cater for semi-express Cranbourne and Pakenham services, eliminating the need for new platforms to be built at most stations.

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