Acceleration of the N Class locomotivesd

 
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Just wondering

How quickly can an N Class loco get up to 115kph?

Assuming a standing start, level ground, and six cars (either 6 x H set or 5x N set+power van)

Sponsored advertisement

  woodford Chief Commissioner

Aproximate distance to 115kph with the above consist is about 4300 metres, it would take around 3 minutes 20 seconds.

To 130kph, 7300 metres and just under 5 minutes.

This from a mathematical trainsimulation, I have checked this with real live trains a number of times though and I am confident of there accuracy.

woodford
  tom9876543 Train Controller

Hi Woodford

Would you happen to know the steepest gradient the train could climb, maintaining a speed of 125km/h???
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Hi Woodford

Would you happen to know the steepest gradient the train could climb, maintaining a speed of 125km/h???
tom9876543
The tractive effort of an N at 125kph at N8 would be around 9500lbs, the total train resistance (rolling, static and air resistance) of the loco and a 6 car train is around 5500lbs, tractive effort left is 4000lbs (1.78 tons). The total train weight would be around 380tons, Grade it will maintain speed on is 380/1.78, the set will climb a maximum grade of 1 in 210 at 125kph.

A point to consider......With an availible TE of only 4000lbs at 125kph, this means the accelaration at these speeds is pathetic.

This illustrates that an N class loco is really unsuited to those sorts of speeds.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

For comparison aprox figures for a 6 car VLocity, Note, the power availible to the wheels is more difficult to figure out than with a deisel electric as the prime mover (the engine) is directly connected to the driving wheels by a mechanical transmission.

Distance and time to 115kph, 1150metres and 65 secs

Distance and time to 160kph, 6300metres and 3m 20secs
I have checked the actual distance a VLocity takes to get to 160kph and this aprox agrees with the above

At 125kph tractive effort is around 17000lbs, total train resistance is around 4400lbs.
Train resistance is lower than the N consist becasue the VLocity has much better streamlining.
Availible TE at 130kph is aprox 12500 lbs, Note this more than 3 times the N class consist.
Maximum grade it can maintain 125kph on 1 in 60. A VL will do 107kph up the 1 in 48 ingliston bank

Note the distance it takes to get up to 160kph, this means for 160kph running to be effective the stops need to be a good distance apart, say at LEAST 20 kilometres. So 160kph running will likely be never suited to the Seymour service, even if the line was straighter.

woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Thanks Woodford

The Type 68 Vossloh Eurolight Bo Bo locomotive (assuming the 3750hp model) accelerated to 120 kph on level ground from a standing start in 90 seconds. The loading was six carriages and a trailer van. I timed this from watching a You Tube clip. I can send you a link if you wish.

Puts the N class into the shade. Time for new locos I would say.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

For comparison aprox figures for a 6 car VLocity, Note, the power availible to the wheels is more difficult to figure out than with a deisel electric as the prime mover (the engine) is directly connected to the driving wheels by a mechanical transmission.

Distance and time to 115kph, 1150metres and 65 secs

Distance and time to 160kph, 6300metres and 3m 20secs
I have checked the actual distance a VLocity takes to get to 160kph and this aprox agrees with the above

At 125kph tractive effort is around 17000lbs, total train resistance is around 4400lbs.
Train resistance is lower than the N consist becasue the VLocity has much better streamlining.
Availible TE at 130kph is aprox 12500 lbs, Note this more than 3 times the N class consist.
Maximum grade it can maintain 125kph on 1 in 60. A VL will do 107kph up the 1 in 48 ingliston bank

Note the distance it takes to get up to 160kph, this means for 160kph running to be effective the stops need to be a good distance apart, say at LEAST 20 kilometres. So 160kph running will likely be never suited to the Seymour service, even if the line was straighter.

woodford
woodford
I agree

We should aim for 130kph for as much of the line from Craigeburn to Seymour as possible. With a partial express we can get the trip down to one hour with a V Locity.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

For comparison aprox figures for a 6 car VLocity, Note, the power availible to the wheels is more difficult to figure out than with a deisel electric as the prime mover (the engine) is directly connected to the driving wheels by a mechanical transmission.

Distance and time to 115kph, 1150metres and 65 secs

Distance and time to 160kph, 6300metres and 3m 20secs
I have checked the actual distance a VLocity takes to get to 160kph and this aprox agrees with the above

At 125kph tractive effort is around 17000lbs, total train resistance is around 4400lbs.
Train resistance is lower than the N consist becasue the VLocity has much better streamlining.
Availible TE at 130kph is aprox 12500 lbs, Note this more than 3 times the N class consist.
Maximum grade it can maintain 125kph on 1 in 60. A VL will do 107kph up the 1 in 48 ingliston bank

Note the distance it takes to get up to 160kph, this means for 160kph running to be effective the stops need to be a good distance apart, say at LEAST 20 kilometres. So 160kph running will likely be never suited to the Seymour service, even if the line was straighter.

woodford
I agree

We should aim for 130kph for as much of the line from Craigeburn to Seymour as possible. With a partial express we can get the trip down to one hour with a V Locity.
Duncs
The Seymour VLine service does do 130kph whenever it can, the time tabled time from Seymour to Broadmedows is 59 minutes, the distance is 82.6kilometres, BUT it stops at 8 stations and it loses around 1.6 minutes at each stop.When this is taken into account the service has an average cruising speed of something over 120kph AND its been doing this for at least the last 12 to 15 years.

This shows how drastic the effect of station stops is.

I believe this is the primary reason, outside of course of cost, on why Seymour was never considered for the RFR project, ie the number of stops meant raising the cruising speed would have little effect.

woodford
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Thanks Woodford

The Type 68 Vossloh Eurolight Bo Bo locomotive (assuming the 3750hp model) accelerated to 120 kph on level ground from a standing start in 90 seconds. The loading was six carriages and a trailer van. I timed this from watching a You Tube clip. I can send you a link if you wish.

Puts the N class into the shade. Time for new locos I would say.
Duncs
I tend to agree with you. Considering the N class are around the 30 year old mark now (they entered service between Sept 1985 and July 1987) they are getting nearer to the end of their life than they are to the start. You could also probably say the same of the N set carriages which where built around the same time.

The thing is though, the government and V/Line seem to be focussing most of their resources on their Vlocity fleet, and their commuter routes ie: nothing past Waurn Ponds, Wendouree, Eaglehawk/ Epsom, Seymour and Traralgon seems to be of as much importance. I wouldn't be surprised if the same N class/ N sets where still running the V/Line long distance trips in 15 years time.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

A stopgap for the N Class is a rebuild with an END 12 cylinder 710 engine for 3300hp. That will at least boost their performance.
But a genuine replacement is needed.... soon.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Thanks Woodford

The Type 68 Vossloh Eurolight Bo Bo locomotive (assuming the 3750hp model) accelerated to 120 kph on level ground from a standing start in 90 seconds. The loading was six carriages and a trailer van. I timed this from watching a You Tube clip. I can send you a link if you wish.
Duncs

I would appreciate the link to this, thank you

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A stopgap for the N Class is a rebuild with an END 12 cylinder 710 engine for 3300hp. That will at least boost their performance.
But a genuine replacement is needed.... soon.
Duncs
One of the drivers told me there was recently some consideration to putting EMD 16-645's in the N's, there does appear to be room for the extra length, if there is any truth in this I know not as it was only from a single source.

woodford
  QSB6.7 Chief Train Controller

Location: Going off the rails on a crazy train.
A stopgap for the N Class is a rebuild with an END 12 cylinder 710 engine for 3300hp. That will at least boost their performance.
But a genuine replacement is needed.... soon.
One of the drivers told me there was recently some consideration to putting EMD 16-645's in the N's, there does appear to be room for the extra length, if there is any truth in this I know not as it was only from a single source.

woodford
woodford
PN might have a few spare engines once they continue the scrapping program.  Quick rebuild/freshen up and away they go.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I did not realise that a EMD 16 - 645 could fit into an N class. They would need to go back to the D43 traction motors instead of the D77 to compensate for the weight of the bigger engine. But you would still have 126 tons and now 3300 hp. So 3000 hp on the rail. Much better.
  t_woodroffe Assistant Commissioner

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no way you could cost-effectively fit a 16-645E3C engine into an N Class. The HEP diesel alternator set and toilet preclude any easy drop in and the weight distribution would be cockeyed. The cooling group would require severe modification as well let alone the control system. The AR10 could probably take the increased power input whilst keeping the same traction motor hook up.

Possibly a 12-710 G3 but it would be a cosy fit with the dyno on top and you still have the cooling group and control problems.

On a cost benefit basis (dcf or otherwise) it would just not not stack up. The improvement in power to weight is not sufficient to match the Eurolight which in itself would be hideously expensive and probably wouldn't meet RISSB collision strength requirements amongst other things.

TW
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no way you could cost-effectively fit a 16-645E3C engine into an N Class. The HEP diesel alternator set and toilet preclude any easy drop in and the weight distribution would be cockeyed. The cooling group would require severe modification as well let alone the control system. The AR10 could probably take the increased power input whilst keeping the same traction motor hook up.

Possibly a 12-710 G3 but it would be a cosy fit with the dyno on top and you still have the cooling group and control problems.

On a cost benefit basis (dcf or otherwise) it would just not not stack up. The improvement in power to weight is not sufficient to match the Eurolight which in itself would be hideously expensive and probably wouldn't meet RISSB collision strength requirements amongst other things.

TW
t_woodroffe
The Eurolight is up with the latest Euro safety standards, which are more stringent than ours. I dispute it will be hideously expensive! There  is no basis in fact for this comment!Exclamation
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Woodford

Here is the You Tube Clip. The key acceleration starts at 4minutes 40 seconds.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIkUt_YHO8k


Duncs
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no way you could cost-effectively fit a 16-645E3C engine into an N Class. The HEP diesel alternator set and toilet preclude any easy drop in and the weight distribution would be cockeyed. The cooling group would require severe modification as well let alone the control system. The AR10 could probably take the increased power input whilst keeping the same traction motor hook up.

Possibly a 12-710 G3 but it would be a cosy fit with the dyno on top and you still have the cooling group and control problems.

On a cost benefit basis (dcf or otherwise) it would just not not stack up. The improvement in power to weight is not sufficient to match the Eurolight which in itself would be hideously expensive and probably wouldn't meet RISSB collision strength requirements amongst other things.

TW
The Eurolight is up with the latest Euro safety standards, which are more stringent than ours. I dispute it will be hideously expensive! There  is no basis in fact for this comment!Exclamation
Duncs

This article................
http://www.railengineer.uk/2014/04/01/sleek-lines

States that the 15 loco contract is worth aprox 45 miilion UK pounds, they are operated by Direct Rail Services which is a wholey owned subsiduary of the Nuclear Decommisioning Authority which in British terms is a non-departmental public body, ie a QUANGO. So its unkown by this writer anyway if they have large sums of money to lash out on expensive loco's. But given the apparent nature of UK politics that would not appear to be the case.
The actual loco cost appears to never been officially released though, which MAY indicate an issue.

Note:A number of sources give the contract this 45 million figure, all of them though reference the above article as there source.

If the above price is correct this puts an individual machine price somewhere around $6 million Australian in an order of 15 machines.

woodford
  t_woodroffe Assistant Commissioner

Duncs, there is plenty of basis in fact.

Please note the following:

The Eurolight is totally different from anything in the V/Line fleet. NO compatability of design, maintenance procedures, spare parts, operating systems, multiple unit capability etc etc etc

Comprehensive driver, operations and maintenance training would be required.

Existing maintenance facilities do not support the CAT engine, the ABB control and traction kit and almost certainly major investment to allow such support would be necessary.

I presume you want to replace N Class one-for-one. Dual gauge capability? Another on-cost.

Set up cost to build 25 V/Line specific locomotives?

The locos would be imported from Spain. Oh dear .... transport costs?

Accreditation of a totally foreign locomotive; look how long it has taken BK to get their CSR equivalents accredited. The locos would require accreditation with V/Line, Metro, ARTC, PTV etc etc

No HEP capability as far as I am aware.

Brake compatability and interface requirements require substantial review.

Could you please identify how the Euro safety standards are more stringent than ours and whether they are even relevant to east coast Australia operation?

Could you please identify the draft/buff force, compressive end load and impact load parameters for which Eurolight is designed?

And, finally, some more home work .....

Please establish the project cost of a 25 V/Line specific loco build by Vossloh in Spain including build cost, transportation cost, commissioning cost, accreditation cost, maintenance support cost, spare parts recommendation and fixed and rotable spares holding cost, driver, operations and maintenance staff costs.

Now turn this into a 25 year whole-of-life and prove to me that cost would not be hideous.

BTW for more than thirty years I have been intimately involved in locomotive design and specification, locomotive purchase, locomotive project proposals, locomotive rebuild, locomotive maintenance and locomtive operation covering hundreds of locomotives in Australia and overseas (Sth Africa, Sudan, Czech Republic, Vietnam, China, Canada, USA, Germany, Denmark, New Zealand amongst others.)

TW
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
If you threw in the 19 XPTs, Xplorer sets (maybe the Endeavours) and a couple extras, you might start getting a sizeable fleet that could drive some real cost reductions.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no way you could cost-effectively fit a 16-645E3C engine into an N Class. The HEP diesel alternator set and toilet preclude any easy drop in and the weight distribution would be cockeyed. The cooling group would require severe modification as well let alone the control system. The AR10 could probably take the increased power input whilst keeping the same traction motor hook up.

Possibly a 12-710 G3 but it would be a cosy fit with the dyno on top and you still have the cooling group and control problems.

On a cost benefit basis (dcf or otherwise) it would just not not stack up. The improvement in power to weight is not sufficient to match the Eurolight which in itself would be hideously expensive and probably wouldn't meet RISSB collision strength requirements amongst other things.

TW
The Eurolight is up with the latest Euro safety standards, which are more stringent than ours. I dispute it will be hideously expensive! There  is no basis in fact for this comment!Exclamation

This article................
http://www.railengineer.uk/2014/04/01/sleek-lines

States that the 15 loco contract is worth aprox 45 miilion UK pounds, they are operated by Direct Rail Services which is a wholey owned subsiduary of the Nuclear Decommisioning Authority which in British terms is a non-departmental public body, ie a QUANGO. So its unkown by this writer anyway if they have large sums of money to lash out on expensive loco's. But given the apparent nature of UK politics that would not appear to be the case.
The actual loco cost appears to never been officially released though, which MAY indicate an issue.

Note:A number of sources give the contract this 45 million figure, all of them though reference the above article as there source.

If the above price is correct this puts an individual machine price somewhere around $6 million Australian in an order of 15 machines.

woodford
woodford
Woodford those numbers sound realistic


The reality is that the N class will have to be replaced within the next 5-6 years. Yes investing in a new locomotive will be expensive up front (it always is) but once that is all bedded down the benefits will flow.

With regard to T_ Woodroffe's post, if we have to embrace a new brand of diesel supplier (CAT) then so be it. We had to do that when we went to Cummins diesels for the V locoties. I am confident that european safety standards are higher than ours because their trains travel at higher speeds than we do. So there has to be stronger crash protection.

Cost of shipping is not that big an issue given that global shipping rates are the lowest on record. Given that the Type 68 is an export designed product, I have no doubt that it can be made compatible with our set up etc.. Also I would invite Vossloh to enter into a joint venture to set up a factory here (as Bombardier have done) so most of the work can be doe here in any case.

Bottom line, the N's must be replaced with either a Type 68, or an equivalent locomotive.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Duncs, there is plenty of basis in fact.

Please note the following:

The Eurolight is totally different from anything in the V/Line fleet. NO compatability of design, maintenance procedures, spare parts, operating systems, multiple unit capability etc etc etc

Comprehensive driver, operations and maintenance training would be required.

Existing maintenance facilities do not support the CAT engine, the ABB control and traction kit and almost certainly major investment to allow such support would be necessary.

I presume you want to replace N Class one-for-one. Dual gauge capability? Another on-cost.

Set up cost to build 25 V/Line specific locomotives?

The locos would be imported from Spain. Oh dear .... transport costs?

Accreditation of a totally foreign locomotive; look how long it has taken BK to get their CSR equivalents accredited. The locos would require accreditation with V/Line, Metro, ARTC, PTV etc etc

No HEP capability as far as I am aware.

Brake compatability and interface requirements require substantial review.

Could you please identify how the Euro safety standards are more stringent than ours and whether they are even relevant to east coast Australia operation?

Could you please identify the draft/buff force, compressive end load and impact load parameters for which Eurolight is designed?

And, finally, some more home work .....

Please establish the project cost of a 25 V/Line specific loco build by Vossloh in Spain including build cost, transportation cost, commissioning cost, accreditation cost, maintenance support cost, spare parts recommendation and fixed and rotable spares holding cost, driver, operations and maintenance staff costs.

Now turn this into a 25 year whole-of-life and prove to me that cost would not be hideous.

BTW for more than thirty years I have been intimately involved in locomotive design and specification, locomotive purchase, locomotive project proposals, locomotive rebuild, locomotive maintenance and locomtive operation covering hundreds of locomotives in Australia and overseas (Sth Africa, Sudan, Czech Republic, Vietnam, China, Canada, USA, Germany, Denmark, New Zealand amongst others.)

TW
t_woodroffe

Devils advocate mode on...............

A couple of points first........

Wikepedia article on the Eurolight states Headend power to the tune of 500kW is provided on the passenger version.

Next VLine has already stated a preference for a DMU solution, assuming they are going to anything at all. I attended 2 of the information sessions held along the NE line and both the Vic government and the VLine rep said nothing at all even though they were continually bombarded about any future rolling stock. This did not strike as any kind of good sign.

Anyway surely any kind of light weight locomotive will end up with the same costs, it appears all such current loco's have some kind of high speed diesel engine in them to keep the weight down. And I do not know if EMD could actual build a 4000bhp loco weighing under 90 tons.

Does this mean we are condemmed to a slowly deteriorating long distance pass setup here in Victoria, just becasue any solution will be deemed ultra expensive without anyone even trying for a solution.

As far as I can see there are only two choices, some kind of light weight loco, probably from Europe or a long distance DMU again likely from Europe and probably using a Cummins engine and a Voith transmission.

A point I will bring up is the last Vic government WAS tossed out after a single term because they did nothing for the railway's, the current mob do not have such a massive majority that they can safely ignore most of country Victoria. Remember also Vic country already has had two of the major party pollies tossed out for independents so one cannot garuntee the rural areas will follow conservative lines.

woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Woodford's point is very valid. A lightweight locomotive such as the Type 68 was conceived and designed for just this type of situation. This will motivate the other locomotive providers to compete so I expect rivals to the Type 68 to emerge, sooner rather than later. Then V Line picks the best one available.

So there will be competition on both price and design, a very good outcome for the buyer.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Woodford

Here is the You Tube Clip. The key acceleration starts at 4minutes 40 seconds.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIkUt_YHO8k


Duncs
Duncs
After leaving Solihul, the set reached 100kph in around 1200 metres (the second over bridge past Solihull), This is the sort of peformance one would expect from a VLocity, ie excellent going. Given there where 2 68's in push pull. It must have been an 8 to 10 car train.

It did the 16 kilometres from Dorridge to Birmingham moor st in aprox 12 minutes, an average speed of 80kph, an excellent result with one stop and a speed limit of 120kph.

The maximum speed reached was 125kph, the line speed limit being 75mph (120kph)

woodford
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Duncs, there is plenty of basis in fact.

Please note the following:

The Eurolight is totally different from anything in the V/Line fleet. NO compatability of design, maintenance procedures, spare parts, operating systems, multiple unit capability etc etc etc

Comprehensive driver, operations and maintenance training would be required.

Existing maintenance facilities do not support the CAT engine, the ABB control and traction kit and almost certainly major investment to allow such support would be necessary.

I presume you want to replace N Class one-for-one. Dual gauge capability? Another on-cost.

Set up cost to build 25 V/Line specific locomotives?

The locos would be imported from Spain. Oh dear .... transport costs?

Accreditation of a totally foreign locomotive; look how long it has taken BK to get their CSR equivalents accredited. The locos would require accreditation with V/Line, Metro, ARTC, PTV etc etc

No HEP capability as far as I am aware.

Brake compatability and interface requirements require substantial review.

Could you please identify how the Euro safety standards are more stringent than ours and whether they are even relevant to east coast Australia operation?

Could you please identify the draft/buff force, compressive end load and impact load parameters for which Eurolight is designed?

And, finally, some more home work .....

Please establish the project cost of a 25 V/Line specific loco build by Vossloh in Spain including build cost, transportation cost, commissioning cost, accreditation cost, maintenance support cost, spare parts recommendation and fixed and rotable spares holding cost, driver, operations and maintenance staff costs.

Now turn this into a 25 year whole-of-life and prove to me that cost would not be hideous.

BTW for more than thirty years I have been intimately involved in locomotive design and specification, locomotive purchase, locomotive project proposals, locomotive rebuild, locomotive maintenance and locomtive operation covering hundreds of locomotives in Australia and overseas (Sth Africa, Sudan, Czech Republic, Vietnam, China, Canada, USA, Germany, Denmark, New Zealand amongst others.)

TW

Devils advocate mode on...............

A couple of points first........

Wikepedia article on the Eurolight states Headend power to the tune of 500kW is provided on the passenger version.

Next VLine has already stated a preference for a DMU solution, assuming they are going to anything at all. I attended 2 of the information sessions held along the NE line and both the Vic government and the VLine rep said nothing at all even though they were continually bombarded about any future rolling stock. This did not strike as any kind of good sign.

Anyway surely any kind of light weight locomotive will end up with the same costs, it appears all such current loco's have some kind of high speed diesel engine in them to keep the weight down. And I do not know if EMD could actual build a 4000bhp loco weighing under 90 tons.

Does this mean we are condemmed to a slowly deteriorating long distance pass setup here in Victoria, just becasue any solution will be deemed ultra expensive without anyone even trying for a solution.

As far as I can see there are only two choices, some kind of light weight loco, probably from Europe or a long distance DMU again likely from Europe and probably using a Cummins engine and a Voith transmission.

A point I will bring up is the last Vic government WAS tossed out after a single term because they did nothing for the railway's, the current mob do not have such a massive majority that they can safely ignore most of country Victoria. Remember also Vic country already has had two of the major party pollies tossed out for independents so one cannot garuntee the rural areas will follow conservative lines.

woodford
woodford
And this is what annoys me. The expectation of rolling stock is dependent on the Electorate. The fact that Bendigo, Ballarat and Geelong corridors get brand new sparkling air conditioned, expensive DMU's at over $20 Million for a 3 Car Train, whilst the Albury, Shepparton, Swan Hill and Bairnsdale have to make do with unrefurbished, filthy carriages sets at least 30 years old with 30 year old locos. Indeed all the present Government has done was to provide 1 extra N class locomotive for the Albury services. I would even hazard a guess that the proposed Eaglehawk to Bendigo shuttles on the Bendigo Rail Network will have Velocities operating them. Surely a couple of cheap Railmotors re-manufactured from a couple of old Z Class trams joined together would be sufficient.

Michael

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.