Intercity: How regional rail can re-balance population growth and create a “state of cities” in victoria

 
  woodford Chief Commissioner

PTV is defnitely better than Vline, they have some, but not all of the non Vline rural bus routes. Whereas Vline pretends that if they don't franchise them, then the routes don't exist.

While people on this forum are likely to be a bit more savy than most. (How many ordinary people even know about the PTV website?) But the average mug who checks the Vline website to see what public transport is available in the country gets this woefully incomplete map, inferring that dozens of towns don't have a public transport bus service. https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/f8a1e2c3-5d60-4abe-b608-2bc18e9f8197/V-Line-Network-Map


https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/f8a1e2c3-5d60-4abe-b608-2bc18e9f8197/V-Line-Network-Map

Despite the obvious deficiencies in the PTV map...as an outsider or overseas tourist I wouldn't be looking for the PT Authority of the state or country I was in...I simply Googled 'bus from Bairnsdale to Omeo' and the PTV t/t came up.

Mike.
The Vinelander
For various reasons I regularly travel around the place via public transport, and when I require to do so one just does a google search as mentioned above. I was surprised on where one could get to. You do have to pick your times but most such services do meet trains. A point I will make is VLine is a government owned company providing certain transport services. It is not an agent for every small service in the state.

woodford

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  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
All good stuff.  In regard to james.au, I think in general terms you can describe Victoria through good luck and history has the topography, landuse etc that contain many of the attributes of some western European countries and the UK where there are a reasonable number of quite substantial regional cities like the Geelongs,Ballarat, Bendigo etc as well as a host of second tier large towns/cities like Benalla, Shepparton, Warrnambool, Albury/Wodonga etc that have resulted in very significant movements of people between these places independent of Melbourne as well of course on the direct link to Melbourne.  

Very broadly all these centres are located in an almost continuous arc with only a small impact of the Great Dividing Range limiting movement between the north east and the east.

Contrast this to New south Wales where Sydney is totally surrounded by the great divide/Blue mountains which poses an enormous challenge in being able to connect both Sydney as well as major cities with each other.

So when you look at the PTV Map of both rail, v/Line road coach routes and a myriad of inter-town bus services you can see there are enormous opportunities to link Cities and in most cases that can be done through enhancing the existing rail infrastructure as well as the reinstatement of some closed or under utilized lines to form the spine if you like supported by an integrated bus/coach network.    Many people are already commuting into regional cities like Bendigo and Ballarat on services timed for that purpose and trains like the morning up from Echuca to Bendigo cary very healthy loads of daily commuters attending regional Universities, hospitals etc.   The Rail Futures really takes what exists today to its full potential.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
Alan Davies over at Crikey's The Urbanist blog has an interesting perspective on 'Rail Futures'/'InterCity' and its version of rail-enabled decentralisation:
Rail Futures’ assumption that regional dormitory folk will be prepared to live at much high densities is a dubious argument; the necessary policies could equally be applied to the Growth Areas on Melbourne’s fringe. It might well be that new settlers will seek to live at even lower densities because the relatively small size of regional centres means they can enjoy space while retaining ready access by car to the centre of town.

This isn’t decentralisation in the Whitlam-era sense of creating economic activities in the regions to attract population growth from the big cities; it’s the other way around. I think the best that can be said is the jury is out on the wisdom or otherwise of regional dormitories; the proposition needs a lot more hard-nosed analysis.
Alan Davies
In other words: the report is a series of rail pipe dreams bolted onto an idea that is popular but has many flaws.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Nope Dirty Ballast, ....
Bogong
We agree more than you think. My point, which you capably demonstrated for me, is that white fella has NEVER truly assimilated in this country.

Now, back to topic. Smile
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Organisations are not willing to move jobs away from Melbourne without adequate public transport links between the regional centres. Tim is right in we need investment leading to decentralisation which is exactly what is being proposed with high speed rail between Sydney and Melbourne. The key corridors for Melbourne and regional centres are now surely Melbourne to Geelong, Geelong to Ballarat, Ballarat to Castlemaine via Bendigo and Bendigo to Melbourne. We are just so far behind the rest of the world it is frightening.
MetroFemme
Decentralisation has not failed thus far because of poor public transport. Maybe you are too young to remember the fuss about Aldonga, but the reason that its population still sits at 1/3 of what Whitlam projected it would be by the start of this millennium has far more to do with a lack of will by people at every level than fast trains.

Even now, a bureaucrat would rather snub a TGV equivalent hour from Aldonga to Melbourne in favour of his own personal space in his Audi for his commute from Mont Albert instead, even if the travelling times might be roughly the same, give or take.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

" almost all the extra 4 million or so population increase will be concentrated in Melbourne, no matter how much we might wish for a wider geographical spread."    Bogong

Good luck with that, faarrk,  Melbourne will start at Ballarat

wobert
No it wont. The planning laws will change to allow for more sensible, denser, development. We are already seeing this with the high rise apartments springing up, though these are short term projects designed to cash in on the Chinese dollar. The future is not urban sprawl, neither is it decentralisation: it is denser housing in the middle and inner suburbs. The biggest problem in the way is the NIMBYs who want to "save their suburbs".
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland


No it wont. The planning laws will change to allow for more sensible, denser, development. We are already seeing this with the high rise apartments springing up, though these are short term projects designed to cash in on the Chinese dollar. The future is not urban sprawl, neither is it decentralisation: it is denser housing in the middle and inner suburbs. The biggest problem in the way is the NIMBYs who want to "save their suburbs".
Mr. Lane
The all mighty $ will eventually get the better of the NIMBY's
  MetroFemme Chief Train Controller

Tim Fischer sands behind his words meeting with regional rail alliance board over the last day or two. If only Tim had done more when he was in federal politics when the surpluses were massive and the opportunities to improve rail were there.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
" almost all the extra 4 million or so population increase will be concentrated in Melbourne, no matter how much we might wish for a wider geographical spread."    Bogong

Good luck with that, faarrk,  Melbourne will start at Ballarat

No it wont. The planning laws will change to allow for more sensible, denser, development. We are already seeing this with the high rise apartments springing up, though these are short term projects designed to cash in on the Chinese dollar. The future is not urban sprawl, neither is it decentralisation: it is denser housing in the middle and inner suburbs. The biggest problem in the way is the NIMBYs who want to "save their suburbs".
Mr. Lane
So the kilometers and kilometers of sprawl to the west and south of Melbourne that I've witnessed in 40 years is about to cease, really, some one better tell all the property developers and land bankers that.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

" almost all the extra 4 million or so population increase will be concentrated in Melbourne, no matter how much we might wish for a wider geographical spread."    Bogong

Good luck with that, faarrk,  Melbourne will start at Ballarat

No it wont. The planning laws will change to allow for more sensible, denser, development. We are already seeing this with the high rise apartments springing up, though these are short term projects designed to cash in on the Chinese dollar. The future is not urban sprawl, neither is it decentralisation: it is denser housing in the middle and inner suburbs. The biggest problem in the way is the NIMBYs who want to "save their suburbs".
So the kilometers and kilometers of sprawl to the west and south of Melbourne that I've witnessed in 40 years is about to cease, really, some one better tell all the property developers and land bankers that.
wobert
To the people in suburban Melbourne who are whinging about all the medium density dog-box housing going up in their street - I tell them this: Sell your house and move to the country. Smile
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

" almost all the extra 4 million or so population increase will be concentrated in Melbourne, no matter how much we might wish for a wider geographical spread."    Bogong

Good luck with that, faarrk,  Melbourne will start at Ballarat

No it wont. The planning laws will change to allow for more sensible, denser, development. We are already seeing this with the high rise apartments springing up, though these are short term projects designed to cash in on the Chinese dollar. The future is not urban sprawl, neither is it decentralisation: it is denser housing in the middle and inner suburbs. The biggest problem in the way is the NIMBYs who want to "save their suburbs".
So the kilometers and kilometers of sprawl to the west and south of Melbourne that I've witnessed in 40 years is about to cease, really, some one better tell all the property developers and land bankers that.
wobert
What's with the attitude? I didn't say it was "about to cease" did I? These things are gradual and change over time. Planning laws will change (and have gradually been for the last 20 years) to allow more density in existing established suburbs. There will still be a market for big blocks on the fringes, but that's gradually changing as peoples preferences are changing and people are prepared to sacrifice space for shorter commuter times. Governments like it too, because it lowers the cost of servicing the population. Councils like it because they collect more rates per square kilometre.

Add into the fact that more migrants to Australia these days come from societies used to dense living and people under 35 are increasingly single and don't need a 3 bedroom house that their baby boomer parents had, at least until later in their life as they put off having children, and you end up with the demand equation shifting towards smaller units and blocks in and away from sprawling 1/4 block family homes.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

" almost all the extra 4 million or so population increase will be concentrated in Melbourne, no matter how much we might wish for a wider geographical spread."    Bogong

Good luck with that, faarrk,  Melbourne will start at Ballarat

No it wont. The planning laws will change to allow for more sensible, denser, development. We are already seeing this with the high rise apartments springing up, though these are short term projects designed to cash in on the Chinese dollar. The future is not urban sprawl, neither is it decentralisation: it is denser housing in the middle and inner suburbs. The biggest problem in the way is the NIMBYs who want to "save their suburbs".
So the kilometers and kilometers of sprawl to the west and south of Melbourne that I've witnessed in 40 years is about to cease, really, some one better tell all the property developers and land bankers that.
To the people in suburban Melbourne who are whinging about all the medium density dog-box housing going up in their street - I tell them this: Sell your house and move to the country. Smile
Carnot
Good! More houses on the market for people who want to move to the middle suburbs Smile
  62440 Chief Commissioner

There seems to be a mix of issues here. One is overspill suburbs for Melbourne, many of which have rail access. The other is the connectivity of non-Melbourne. You have major centres which are self supporting cities, not dormitory suburbs and geographically, there are located perfectly for a transport service from Geelong to Bendigo via Ballarat with additional large towns. Most of the track is there and suitable for passenger service. You start with Sprinters then upgrade the track in stages until you have the market to move to VLocities. Then you move to extend the services to Horsham etc to provide a network. It's not rocket science and it is affordable.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The reality Is there Is not the passenger demand to justify the replacement of road coaches with passenger trains.

No It's not affordable, there are many much more urgent rail/public transport project to fund and commission first.

Geelong - Ballarat passenger service Is the only one with any hope of getting up, but It would have to be a red hot election Issue for the polli's to take notice.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The reality Is there Is not the passenger demand to justify the replacement of road coaches with passenger trains.

No It's not affordable, there are many much more urgent rail/public transport project to fund and commission first.

Geelong - Ballarat passenger service Is the only one with any hope of getting up, but It would have to be a red hot election Issue for the polli's to take notice.
Nightfire

I wouldn't however call this regional rail but intercity rail. Regional rail is what the service to Warnambool is.

Those 3 cities are big enough to support a rail system. There is nearly half a million people in those 3 cities. This is more then enough to provide several train journeys in each direction a day.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Those 3 cities are big enough to support a rail system. There is nearly half a million people in those 3 cities. This is more then enough to provide several train journeys in each direction a day.
simstrain
This Is yet to be proven that a Inter regional City passenger service Is viable !

Public transport travel demand between Bendigo and Ballarat would be very minimal, due to the two Cities each offering near Identical City services.
But that said, Ararat and Maryborough train services feed Into Ballarat along with Increasing counter peak flow from the likes of Ballan.
Also Echuca train services feed Into Bendigo maybe to a lesser extent of Swan Hill services, again with Increasing counter peak flow from the likes of Castlemaine.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Those 3 cities are big enough to support a rail system. There is nearly half a million people in those 3 cities. This is more then enough to provide several train journeys in each direction a day.
This Is yet to be proven that a Inter regional City passenger service Is viable !

Public transport travel demand between Bendigo and Ballarat would be very minimal, due to the two Cities each offering near Identical City services.
But that said, Ararat and Maryborough train services feed Into Ballarat along with Increasing counter peak flow from the likes of Ballan.
Also Echuca train services feed Into Bendigo maybe to a lesser extent of Swan Hill services, again with Increasing counter peak flow from the likes of Castlemaine.
Nightfire

How is it not yet proven. Here you have 3 cities of decent size only 180km apart with a combined population of nearly 500,000. Some may call me hypocritical, especially over my stance with culling the broken hill xplorer in another thread. But this is 3 relatively close cities, with significant populations and not a town of 20,000 people isolated by 700km's from another major town in NSW.

Basically it is the same population as the Gosford, lake Macquarie and Newcastle areas in NSW and these cities have a train.
  Inland_Sailor Junior Train Controller

Using Google Maps, not exactly accurate to the rail distance, it's 265Km Bendigo to Geelong Stations via the probable SG route of Eaglehawk, Inglewood, Dunolly Maryborough and Ballarat.
Bendigo Station to Geelong Station Via Southern Cross is 225Km. Surely if all the ducks line up and you can can get interconnecting trains, this must be the quicker route if you need to go by train.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Using Google Maps, not exactly accurate to the rail distance, it's 265Km Bendigo to Geelong Stations via the probable SG route of Eaglehawk, Inglewood, Dunolly Maryborough and Ballarat.
Bendigo Station to Geelong Station Via Southern Cross is 225Km. Surely if all the ducks line up and you can can get interconnecting trains, this must be the quicker route if you need to go by train.
Inland_Sailor

Didn't vline stop interchanging in the metro network due to metro passengers sneaking onto trains and clogging up vlocities?
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Using Google Maps, not exactly accurate to the rail distance, it's 265Km Bendigo to Geelong Stations via the probable SG route of Eaglehawk, Inglewood, Dunolly Maryborough and Ballarat.
Bendigo Station to Geelong Station Via Southern Cross is 225Km. Surely if all the ducks line up and you can can get interconnecting trains, this must be the quicker route if you need to go by train.

Didn't vline stop interchanging in the metro network due to metro passengers sneaking onto trains and clogging up vlocities?
simstrain
They do to a point.

At Flinders Street and Southern Cross they show trains running express to Nar Nar Goon on the screens.   They actually stop at the usual places like Caulfield, Clayton etc.

The trains that stop at Pakenham on the Up are usually swamped by Pakenham boarders.   Likewise the people in the know will use the Down with a reasonable exodus at Pakenham.

You see the off conductor getting in to local passengers, its not usual.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
How is it not yet proven. Here you have 3 cities of decent size only 180km apart with a combined population of nearly 500,000. Some may call me hypocritical, especially over my stance with culling the broken hill xplorer in another thread. But this is 3 relatively close cities, with significant populations and not a town of 20,000 people isolated by 700km's from another major town in NSW.

Basically it is the same population as the Gosford, lake Macquarie and Newcastle areas in NSW and these cities have a train.
simstrain

One difference in scenarios is that Sydney-Newcastle is a linear route, whereas Melbourne-Ballarat-Bendigo is triangular.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

How is it not yet proven. Here you have 3 cities of decent size only 180km apart with a combined population of nearly 500,000. Some may call me hypocritical, especially over my stance with culling the broken hill xplorer in another thread. But this is 3 relatively close cities, with significant populations and not a town of 20,000 people isolated by 700km's from another major town in NSW.

Basically it is the same population as the Gosford, lake Macquarie and Newcastle areas in NSW and these cities have a train.
simstrain
The Victorian Government commissioned a study a year or so ago, claiming the radial passenger route was un-affordable !

The Government clearly did not want to the study to come back with a favorable outcome, by Insisting on the lines be upgraded to a gold plated standard.

The price tag was around the $1 Billion

Travel from Geelong to Bendigo Is always going to be quicker by changing trains at Sunshine (or Footscray)
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

How is it not yet proven. Here you have 3 cities of decent size only 180km apart with a combined population of nearly 500,000. Some may call me hypocritical, especially over my stance with culling the broken hill xplorer in another thread. But this is 3 relatively close cities, with significant populations and not a town of 20,000 people isolated by 700km's from another major town in NSW.

Basically it is the same population as the Gosford, lake Macquarie and Newcastle areas in NSW and these cities have a train.
The Victorian Government commissioned a study a year or so ago, claiming the radial passenger route was un-affordable !

The Government clearly did not want to the study to come back with a favorable outcome, by Insisting on the lines be upgraded to a gold plated standard.

The price tag was around the $1 Billion

Travel from Geelong to Bendigo Is always going to be quicker by changing trains at Sunshine (or Footscray)
Nightfire


You are referring to a gold plated report outcome instigated by former Baillieu/Napthine government PT Minister Terry Mulder.

Bendigo trains also don't stop at Sunshine.


We have a more progressive state government now that is more predisposed towards expanding PT.


Mike.

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