Regauging Victoria's railways (!)

 
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Switzeland is making progress with so-called "Gauge Change Trains", which have variable gauge axles, rather than the more familiar bogie exchange.
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See: http://Railpage.com.au/f-t11385109.htm

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The Spanish have had operational "gauge changing trains" for many years ie the Talgo trains.  I understand that other European countries also have operational gauge changing trains. The concept and even the practical application is not new.
Unless there are some practical engineering issues that are not immediately obvious it is difficult to understand why this technology has not been investigated for application in Victoria.  Perhaps it has!
Certainly it would seem unlikely to be more expensive than the major infrastructure "work arounds" that have been suggested in this and other fora.
NOELWB

A Gauge Change Train would be more viable if there are a small number of trains on a large mileage of track.
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Track Regauging would be more viable if there were a large number of trains on a small mileage of track.
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Factor in say track complexities, such as double slips which are difficult to convert. Also the complexity of the timetable.

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BTW, the 58 GCT bogies are costing $A300k each. At least some are power bogies. Cost of ordinary Freight and Passenger bogies are unknown.
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  NOELWB Locomotive Driver

It seems to me that the reasons you would consider automatic gauge changeable technology are self evident but if not any perusal of this forum might provide some idea.
But to explain in simple terms, there may be some economic value in standardising the Swan Hill/ Piangil, Echuca /Deniliquin, Shepparton/Tocumwal and Bairnsdale lines for freight traffic but that produces obvious gauge issues for the broad gauge passenger rolling stock which presently run on those lines.
A captive fleet of automatic gauge changeable DMUs on those lines working into the RFR network would appear to overcome a lot of issues.
I am sure that it would be expensive but compared to significant lengths of dual gauge line providing less than optimal lines speeds and other operational and maintenance issues it could end up being the low cost option.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Are you saying that the whole network would be regauged during a period where it is all shut down? That would mean no suburban train services anywhere in the metropolitan area for months.
"Myrtone"
Buses replacing trains over the section of track being upgraded. When the track is done and re-gauged trains are running, move to the next part. Start with the outer sections and move slowly towards the city, making each broad gauge section of track shorter and shorter until the entire line is done.

For example, Hurstbridge to Diamond Creek would be converted first, with buses replacing trains until the tracks are laid and test trains have been running (assuming it's possible to convert any of our current suburban trains to standard gauge), then work starts on Diamond Creek to Eltham or Greensborough while the new standard gauge train(s) are doing revenue service at the extremities, and so on. A temporary maintenance yard may have to be built at Hurstbridge in order to cater for the standard gauge trains, due to them not being able to be moved anywhere else unless the bogies were swapped or the carriages moved by road.

Of course, once the standard gauge gets to Clifton Hill, it would be time to start on the South Morang line, if the same work wasn't done simultaneously with the Hurstbridge line. The only stations which would require dual gauge after the conversion of the Clifton Hill group would be Southern Cross and Flinders Street, unless the tracks can be isolated to those services only - the Clifton Hill Loop would not need dual gauge.

The reason I gave the Clifton Hill group as an example is that it is mostly isolated from the rest of the network - the line doesn't connect with large stations such as North Melbourne, Richmond or South Yarra, which would be an order of magnitude harder to work with due to the need to share platforms, not only with suburban trains, but passenger (e.g. V/Line) and freight as well (Frankston would be an interesting one, given the Long Island steel train and the Stony Point Sprinters beyond the wires).

Sandringham could be done in a similar way since the southern platforms at Richmond and South Yarra are isolated from the Caulfield lines, but the line would lose loop access, and other trains would lose access to platform 13 at Flinders Street, if not 10 and 12 as well unless 10/12 were dual-gauged.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Buses replacing trains over the section of track being upgraded. When the track is done and re-gauged trains are running, move to the next part. Start with the outer sections and move slowly towards the city, making each broad gauge section of track shorter and shorter until the entire line is done.
Heihachi_73
I imagine the whole line would need to be regauged at the same time. And this would mean a large amount of rolling stock being regauged or replaced at the same time as the line is converted.

For example, Hurstbridge to Diamond Creek would be converted first, with buses replacing trains until the tracks are laid and test trains have been running (assuming it's possible to convert any of our current suburban trains to standard gauge), then work starts on Diamond Creek to Eltham or Greensborough while the new standard gauge train(s) are doing revenue service at the extremities, and so on. A temporary maintenance yard may have to be built at Hurstbridge in order to cater for the standard gauge trains, due to them not being able to be moved anywhere else unless the bogies were swapped or the carriages moved by road.
Heihachi_73
But through running between Hurstbridge and Flinders street would not be possible during this transition. Where would this maintenance yard be built.

Of course, once the standard gauge gets to Clifton Hill, it would be time to start on the South Morang line, if the same work wasn't done simultaneously with the Hurstbridge line. The only stations which would require dual gauge after the conversion of the Clifton Hill group would be Southern Cross and Flinders Street, unless the tracks can be isolated to those services only - the Clifton Hill Loop would not need dual gauge.
Heihachi_73
But south of Clifton Hill, trains to and form South Morang share tracks with trains to and from Epping. So there would be dual gauge track, and thus narrow footed rails and a speed restriction, between the Clifton Hill loop and Clifton Hill station. Doing the same work on both South Morang and Hurstbridge lines would mean buses replacing trains over the entire length of two lines at the same time. Is that already too much disruption?

The reason I gave the Clifton Hill group as an example is that it is mostly isolated from the rest of the network - the line doesn't connect with large stations such as North Melbourne, Richmond or South Yarra, which would be an order of magnitude harder to work with due to the need to share platforms, not only with suburban trains, but passenger (e.g. V/Line) and freight as well (Frankston would be an interesting one, given the Long Island steel train and the Stony Point Sprinters beyond the wires).
Heihachi_73
How would trains be stored if the Clifton Hill group were converted to a different gauge to the rest of the network?

Sandringham could be done in a similar way since the southern platforms at Richmond and South Yarra are isolated from the Caulfield lines, but the line would lose loop access, and other trains would lose access to platform 13 at Flinders Street, if not 10 and 12 as well unless 10/12 were dual-gauged.
Heihachi_73
But they do share platforms with the Williamstown line, trains coming in from Sandringham often continue on to Williamstown. Again if the Sandringham line were physically separated from the rest of the network, how would trains on that line be stored?
Brighton breach sidings isn't big enough to store them all.

You can see that regauging isn't going to happen, and that's the point here.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
You can see that regauging isn't going to happen, and that's the point here.
So why continue with this thread then if it isn't going to happen, which many posters have already point out.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Are you saying that the whole network would be regauged during a period where it is all shut down? That would mean no suburban train services anywhere in the metropolitan area for months.
Buses replacing trains over the section of track being upgraded. When the track is done and re-gauged trains are running, move to the next part. Start with the outer sections and move slowly towards the city, making each broad gauge section of track shorter and shorter until the entire line is done.

For example, Hurstbridge to Diamond Creek would be converted first, with buses replacing trains until the tracks are laid and test trains have been running (assuming it's possible to convert any of our current suburban trains to standard gauge), then work starts on Diamond Creek to Eltham or Greensborough while the new standard gauge train(s) are doing revenue service at the extremities, and so on. A temporary maintenance yard may have to be built at Hurstbridge in order to cater for the standard gauge trains, due to them not being able to be moved anywhere else unless the bogies were swapped or the carriages moved by road.

Of course, once the standard gauge gets to Clifton Hill, it would be time to start on the South Morang line, if the same work wasn't done simultaneously with the Hurstbridge line. The only stations which would require dual gauge after the conversion of the Clifton Hill group would be Southern Cross and Flinders Street, unless the tracks can be isolated to those services only - the Clifton Hill Loop would not need dual gauge.

The reason I gave the Clifton Hill group as an example is that it is mostly isolated from the rest of the network - the line doesn't connect with large stations such as North Melbourne, Richmond or South Yarra, which would be an order of magnitude harder to work with due to the need to share platforms, not only with suburban trains, but passenger (e.g. V/Line) and freight as well (Frankston would be an interesting one, given the Long Island steel train and the Stony Point Sprinters beyond the wires).

Sandringham could be done in a similar way since the southern platforms at Richmond and South Yarra are isolated from the Caulfield lines, but the line would lose loop access, and other trains would lose access to platform 13 at Flinders Street, if not 10 and 12 as well unless 10/12 were dual-gauged.
Heihachi_73
Why on earth would you need to regauge any section of the suburban network? It's not as if you're going to run a train from Adelaide to Hurstbridge or Shepparton to Pakenham.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Are you saying that the whole network would be regauged during a period where it is all shut down? That would mean no suburban train services anywhere in the metropolitan area for months.
Buses replacing trains over the section of track being upgraded. When the track is done and re-gauged trains are running, move to the next part. Start with the outer sections and move slowly towards the city, making each broad gauge section of track shorter and shorter until the entire line is done.

For example, Hurstbridge to Diamond Creek would be converted first, with buses replacing trains until the tracks are laid and test trains have been running (assuming it's possible to convert any of our current suburban trains to standard gauge), then work starts on Diamond Creek to Eltham or Greensborough while the new standard gauge train(s) are doing revenue service at the extremities, and so on. A temporary maintenance yard may have to be built at Hurstbridge in order to cater for the standard gauge trains, due to them not being able to be moved anywhere else unless the bogies were swapped or the carriages moved by road.

Of course, once the standard gauge gets to Clifton Hill, it would be time to start on the South Morang line, if the same work wasn't done simultaneously with the Hurstbridge line. The only stations which would require dual gauge after the conversion of the Clifton Hill group would be Southern Cross and Flinders Street, unless the tracks can be isolated to those services only - the Clifton Hill Loop would not need dual gauge.

The reason I gave the Clifton Hill group as an example is that it is mostly isolated from the rest of the network - the line doesn't connect with large stations such as North Melbourne, Richmond or South Yarra, which would be an order of magnitude harder to work with due to the need to share platforms, not only with suburban trains, but passenger (e.g. V/Line) and freight as well (Frankston would be an interesting one, given the Long Island steel train and the Stony Point Sprinters beyond the wires).

Sandringham could be done in a similar way since the southern platforms at Richmond and South Yarra are isolated from the Caulfield lines, but the line would lose loop access, and other trains would lose access to platform 13 at Flinders Street, if not 10 and 12 as well unless 10/12 were dual-gauged.
Why on earth would you need to regauge any section of the suburban network? It's not as if you're going to run a train from Adelaide to Hurstbridge or Shepparton to Pakenham.
railblogger
Running a standard gauge train to Lyndhurst or Hastings is not fanciful.  However, it does not mean the solution should or should not involve the Metro BG system.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Why on earth would you need to regauge any section of the suburban network? It's not as if you're going to run a train from Adelaide to Hurstbridge or Shepparton to Pakenham.
"railblogger"
So we aren't stuck in the 19th century. Victorian broad gauge belongs with tiny steam engines (e.g. Z526), wooden carriages, screw couplings and gas-lit semaphore signals.

Besides, the Pakenham line could easily end up as a route all the way to New South Wales if anyone could be bothered actually building anything outside Melbourne. What is stopping somewhere like Bairnsdale from suddenly becoming part of a major city of six million people like Melbourne is fast reaching? Gippsland is every bit as habitable as Melbourne (unlike the Pilbara region, for example), it's just that no-one has bothered trying. Population: A quarter of a million.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

It seems to me that the reasons you would consider automatic gauge changeable technology are self evident but if not any perusal of this forum might provide some idea.
NOELWB

A perusal of this forum shows a whole lot of gee-whiz, and we should do this, often for no rational reason. And what might be self-evident to you still requires demonstrating to others. In my experience the term "self-evident" is often used by people with no other arguments. (I'm not saying that's the situation here, I just think it's a poor way to start a debate..

But to explain in simple terms, there may be some economic value in standardising the Swan Hill/ Piangil, Echuca /Deniliquin, Shepparton/Tocumwal and Bairnsdale lines for freight traffic but that produces obvious gauge issues for the broad gauge passenger rolling stock which presently run on those lines.

I'm not certain that "some economic value" would be seen as strong economic justification (although the farcical East-West link with a massive negative cost benefit seemed to win over government). Swan Hill/Piangil might make sense to convert to SG for the grain traffic, although a new line could possibly be built from Piangil to Manangatang removing the grain traffic from the Swan Hill line entirely.

Echuca/Deniliquin to SG might be justified too, for the freight, but I would expect that to be done via Toolamba, in conjunction with converting Tocumwal, leaving the SG passenger fleet for lines beyond Seymour and BG elsewhere.

I'm not certain that one train a day to Maryvale is sufficient justification for the expense of either standardising or gauge convertible bogies. Nor am I certain how it would work there - where would you see the break of gauge on the Gippsland line? Your other examples have DMUs crossing the gauge changeover (at Bendigo or thereabouts and Seymour I guess), but on this line I don't think that's the case. The freight traffic has to get through the suburban area.

A captive fleet of automatic gauge changeable DMUs on those lines working into the RFR network would appear to overcome a lot of issues.
I am sure that it would be expensive but compared to significant lengths of dual gauge line providing less than optimal lines speeds and other operational and maintenance issues it could end up being the low cost option.

Maybe. It would be interesting to know the costs for both bogies and the gauge-changing equipment, and also how long it takes to change a train. The technology for gauge-changing powered bogies is relatively new - it would very interesting to see it in action. The older process was only for non-powered wheelsets, with different locos taking the train onwards on the new gauge.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

It seems to me that the reasons you would consider automatic gauge changeable technology are self evident but if not any perusal of this forum might provide some idea.

A perusal of this forum shows a whole lot of gee-whiz, and we should do this, often for no rational reason. And what might be self-evident to you still requires demonstrating to others. In my experience the term "self-evident" is often used by people with no other arguments. (I'm not saying that's the situation here, I just think it's a poor way to start a debate..

But to explain in simple terms, there may be some economic value in standardising the Swan Hill/ Piangil, Echuca /Deniliquin, Shepparton/Tocumwal and Bairnsdale lines for freight traffic but that produces obvious gauge issues for the broad gauge passenger rolling stock which presently run on those lines.

I'm not certain that "some economic value" would be seen as strong economic justification (although the farcical East-West link with a massive negative cost benefit seemed to win over government). Swan Hill/Piangil might make sense to convert to SG for the grain traffic, although a new line could possibly be built from Piangil to Manangatang removing the grain traffic from the Swan Hill line entirely.

Echuca/Deniliquin to SG might be justified too, for the freight, but I would expect that to be done via Toolamba, in conjunction with converting Tocumwal, leaving the SG passenger fleet for lines beyond Seymour and BG elsewhere.

I'm not certain that one train a day to Maryvale is sufficient justification for the expense of either standardising or gauge convertible bogies. Nor am I certain how it would work there - where would you see the break of gauge on the Gippsland line? Your other examples have DMUs crossing the gauge changeover (at Bendigo or thereabouts and Seymour I guess), but on this line I don't think that's the case. The freight traffic has to get through the suburban area.

A captive fleet of automatic gauge changeable DMUs on those lines working into the RFR network would appear to overcome a lot of issues.
I am sure that it would be expensive but compared to significant lengths of dual gauge line providing less than optimal lines speeds and other operational and maintenance issues it could end up being the low cost option.

Maybe. It would be interesting to know the costs for both bogies and the gauge-changing equipment, and also how long it takes to change a train. The technology for gauge-changing powered bogies is relatively new - it would very interesting to see it in action. The older process was only for non-powered wheelsets, with different locos taking the train onwards on the new gauge.
duttonbay
Read the recent Rail Futures report on the future shape of regional passenger services and it gives a pretty good idea of the likely future shape of the Victorian scene .

1. Suburban and Country networks basically separated.  Suburban stays as bg as no benefit in standardizing, just extra  huge costs .

2. Country short term  standardize North West , then follows  Ballarat - Ararat, and  followed by Inglewood - Eaglehawk and dual gauge into Bendigo. If Inland Rail goes via Shepparton then Goulburn Valley goes to sg , and Toolamba - Echuca - Deniliquin goes to sg also.

3. New sg underground line City - Airport - then onto Clarkefield - Wallan. Connects at Wallan with sg to North East and Goulburn Valley .

4. New sg high speed line  Southern Cross -Newport (underground) - Werribee - Geelong ;  and convert Geelong - Warrnambool to sg .

5.Ballarat - Geelong goes to sg as part  of  Stage 2 .  

6. Any further country standardization will be driven by freight traffic requiring sg  rather than by passenger .
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney

Maybe. It would be interesting to know the costs for both bogies and the gauge-changing equipment, and also how long it takes to change a train. The technology for gauge-changing powered bogies is relatively new - it would very interesting to see it in action. The older process was only for non-powered wheelsets, with different locos taking the train onwards on the new gauge.
duttonbay

The Gauge Change Train bogies, probably the powered ones, cost the Swiss Franc equivalent of $A300,200 each. Two would be required for each carriage.
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How many carriages are there in each train on each line?

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The RGI article (August 2016 p72) does not quote the cost of the Gauge Change Track, which would be about 20m long. Nor does it say how long timewise does it take to change gauge.
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How many GCT trains are needed to run the Melbourne-Ararat service. GCT would allow the Ballarat-Ararat line to be converted to standard gauge, converting the Melbourne-Ararat line to Standard Gauge, albeit with steeper gradients.
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How many GCT trains are needed to run the Melbourne-Albury service. GCT would be able to use the Up Broad Gauge track as part of double track from Melbourne-Seymour, albeit with possible conversion of the Block Telegraph signalling on the Up Broad Gauge track to automatic signalling.








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  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Read the recent Rail Futures report on the future shape of regional passenger services and it gives a pretty good idea of the likely future shape of the Victorian scene .

1. Suburban and Country networks basically separated.  Suburban stays as bg as no benefit in standardizing, just extra  huge costs .

2. Country short term  standardize North West , then follows  Ballarat - Ararat, and  followed by Inglewood - Eaglehawk and dual gauge into Bendigo. If Inland Rail goes via Shepparton then Goulburn Valley goes to sg , and Toolamba - Echuca - Deniliquin goes to sg also.

3. New sg underground line City - Airport - then onto Clarkefield - Wallan. Connects at Wallan with sg to North East and Goulburn Valley .

4. New sg high speed line  Southern Cross -Newport (underground) - Werribee - Geelong ;  and convert Geelong - Warrnambool to sg .

5.Ballarat - Geelong goes to sg as part  of  Stage 2 .  

6. Any further country standardization will be driven by freight traffic requiring sg  rather than by passenger .
kuldalai
I've heard about the suburban and country networks being separated. I get the picture that the real reason for not converting the suburban rail network to standard gauge isn't just the huge costs, but all the disruption.

I have nothing to say on the rest.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
If Inland Rail goes via Shepparton
kuldalai

This is not happening.  Its going via Albury.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways


1. Suburban and Country networks basically separated.  Suburban stays as bg as no benefit in standardizing, just extra  huge costs .

2. Country short term  standardize North West , then follows  Ballarat - Ararat, and  followed by Inglewood - Eaglehawk and dual gauge into Bendigo. If Inland Rail goes via Shepparton then Goulburn Valley goes to sg , and Toolamba - Echuca - Deniliquin goes to sg also.

3. New sg underground line City - Airport - then onto Clarkefield - Wallan. Connects at Wallan with sg to North East and Goulburn Valley .

4. New sg high speed line  Southern Cross -Newport (underground) - Werribee - Geelong ;  and convert Geelong - Warrnambool to sg .

5.Ballarat - Geelong goes to sg as part  of  Stage 2 .  

6. Any further country standardization will be driven by freight traffic requiring sg  rather than by passenger .
kuldalai


That seems all very sensible to me. No gauge converted bogies and almost no dual gauge.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Read the recent Rail Futures report on the future shape of regional passenger services and it gives a pretty good idea of the likely future shape of the Victorian scene .

1. Suburban and Country networks basically separated.  Suburban stays as bg as no benefit in standardizing, just extra  huge costs .

2. Country short term  standardize North West , then follows  Ballarat - Ararat, and  followed by Inglewood - Eaglehawk and dual gauge into Bendigo. If Inland Rail goes via Shepparton then Goulburn Valley goes to sg , and Toolamba - Echuca - Deniliquin goes to sg also.

3. New sg underground line City - Airport - then onto Clarkefield - Wallan. Connects at Wallan with sg to North East and Goulburn Valley .

4. New sg high speed line  Southern Cross -Newport (underground) - Werribee - Geelong ;  and convert Geelong - Warrnambool to sg .

5.Ballarat - Geelong goes to sg as part  of  Stage 2 .  

6. Any further country standardization will be driven by freight traffic requiring sg  rather than by passenger .
I've heard bout the suburban and country networks being separated. I get the picture that the real reason for not converting the suburban rail network to standard gauge isn't just the huge costs, but all the disruption.

I have nothing to say on the rest.
Myrtone
Ideally you should have nothing to say on anything.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

If Inland Rail goes via Shepparton

This is not happening.  Its going via Albury.
james.au
Not necessarily done and dusted yet .  ARTC has heart seton  taking off around Illabo but Private Consortium is pitching to Feds if they want  Private equity involvement then a route via Goulburn Valley will attract private funding whereas via Illabo will not .  Given the Federal government has no bickies in the tin, we shall wait and see .
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
If Inland Rail goes via Shepparton

This is not happening.  Its going via Albury.
Not necessarily done and dusted yet .  ARTC has heart seton  taking off around Illabo but Private Consortium is pitching to Feds if they want  Private equity involvement then a route via Goulburn Valley will attract private funding whereas via Illabo will not .  Given the Federal government has no bickies in the tin, we shall wait and see .
kuldalai
I'll continue this in the Inland Rail thread:

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2029408.htm#2029408
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
As I'm sure you all know, Melbourne suburban trains share some tracks with country services, also Victorian gauge. In some places, these country services share tracks with interstate services, and that's where there is dual gauge track, with the narrow footed rails. Because of the speed restriction placed by three-rail dual gauge track, Victorian and interstate services cannot share tracks where speeds can be greater than 80kh/h.
Regauging Victoria's railways (country services as well as Melbourne suburban) would make it easier to have more extensive inter-running between Victorian and interstate trains. But that doesn't mean it isn't more complicated than it's worth.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
As I'm sure you all know, Melbourne suburban trains share some tracks with country services ......
Myrtone
Gosh!  Really!!  Well well, we learn something new every day in these forums.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Look at the Craiguburn and Sunbury lines in the Northwest and the Pakenham line in the Southeast. Trains to Weribee, in the Southwest, used to share tracks with VLine trains to Geelong. Don't we all know this? And I recall dual gauge track next to the diagonal section of the Weribee line (southwest of Newport).
Note that trains running between Melbourne and Sydney don't use the inner section of the Craigiburn line (broad gauge) but head out west and then along that diagonal stretch at ground level, but with no stations or level crossings.
I remember going on a sleeper train to Adelaide and back as a child, and I recall it going through Yarraville (when the interlocked gates were still in use). But since the track between Melbourne and Adelaide has been regauged, with the section through Yarraville still being broad gauge, this can't happen anymore.
But if all our railways were converted to the same gauge as the interstate lines, than inter-running would be more straightforward.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Another method of changing gauge, besides a Gauge Change Train, is piggyback operation, like that used near Port Augusta in the mid 1950s.

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See: https://www.railpage.com.au/search?search_query=piggyback*&mode=query&search_areas=idx_gallery_image Poorly cropped pic with textual clutter.

See: https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2030436.htm#2030436 Piggyback Train.
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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Yes ÖBB In Austria run similar piggy back trains, even with SG wagons going for a ride on Metre gauge tracks.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Yes ÖBB In Austria run similar piggy back trains, even with SG wagons going for a ride on Metre gauge tracks.
Nightfire

Yes, hardly a new idea. But:

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* But are the upper wagons loaded one at a time, or by the train load? As in Port Augusta!
* Is a crane needed for each wagon, or just a ramp for each train?


* Are there any restrictions of the kind of  upper wagons that can be loaded ; say 4-wheel or 8-wheel? No problem in Port Augusta!
* Big and heavy vehicles (locos) may need  a well (crocodile) wagon, such as VR NG.



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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Yes ÖBB In Austria run similar piggy back trains, even with SG wagons going for a ride on Metre gauge tracks.

Yes, hardly a new idea. But:

.

* But are the upper wagons loaded one at a time, or by the train load? As in Port Augusta!
* Is a crane needed for each wagon, or just a ramp for each train?


* Are there any restrictions of the kind of  upper wagons that can be loaded ; say 4-wheel or 8-wheel? No problem in Port Augusta!
* Big and heavy vehicles (locos) may need  a well (crocodile) wagon, such as VR NG.



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awsgc24
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollbock
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollbock
Nightfire
The Rollbock system will only work if the two gauges are sufficiently different, and clear the flanges and treads of the upper and lower wagons.
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Assume that the flanges are say 1" thick.
Assume that the treads are say 3" thick.
Then 2 flanges and 2 treads take up 2x1 + 2x3 = 8".
In Spain, the difference between BGs and SG is 9.5" which is greater than 8", so it seems to work.
In Victoria, the difference between BGv and SG is 6.5" which is less than 8", which seems to leave insufficient room for Rollbock to work.

Can anyone provide the exact measurements of the flange and tread on the BGv and SG in Victoria?







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