Point of order here.

Could the railfans and developers' advocates please stop quoting the entire post (including many prior posts) to which they are replying.

Same applies to anyone who considers himself outside these categories.

Point of order here.

Could the railfans and developers' advocates please stop quoting the entire post, including many prior posts) to which they are replying.

What if you are not either?

Northern Flyer, judging by the tone and frequency of your posts and your unwillingness to concede anything to anyone, no matter how valid their argument, it appears that you have an obsessive compulsive disorder.  You need help.

Northern Flyer, judging by the tone and frequency of your posts and your unwillingness to concede anything to anyone, no matter how valid their argument, it appears that you have an obsessive compulsive disorder.  You need help.

That statement is priceless. If someone presents valid arguments that corrects false claims and you have no factual response you got straight to the personal insults. Nice work. I suggest you examine your own personality traits. Perhaps first checking the definition of Groupthink.

Can you put forward one claim I have made that is not correct, just one. I would think you can't.

While you make good arguments and present alot of facts, you seem to have an agenda to push these ideas within a community which is undoubtedly full of rail enthusiasts.

The truncation of the Newcastle line is still fresh in alot of Novocastrian's minds...and speaking to many people, were dead against the idea at the time and still are. I know you will probably reply to this post quoting statistics, facts and figures, pie charts and surveys....but I am talking about my experience and probably many others who live here.

Until the Wickham interchange and Light Rail becomes a reality...this will be debated. At this point of time, the truncation is still regarded as controversial to many locals..until we see a suitable replacement to what we had previously at least.

That investment would have happened anyway.
They are building on land that has always been there so development would always have happened with or without a railway.
Why should I embrace a flawed decision by an incompetent political party? I will leave that to you as one one Baird's stooges.
Any city in any country in the world that has a railway connection above ground will be cut in some way so why is Newcastle the only city stupid enough to remove it rather than work with it.
At the end of the day, if the greater population is behind this project as you say, then they will get what they deserve - a dysfunctional and disruptive transport network.

That investment would have happened anyway.
They are building on land that has always been there so development would always have happened with or without a railway.
Why should I embrace a flawed decision by an incompetent political party? I will leave that to you as one one Baird's stooges.
Any city in any country in the world that has a railway connection above ground will be cut in some way so why is Newcastle the only city stupid enough to remove it rather than work with it.
At the end of the day, if the greater population is behind this project as you say, then they will get what they deserve - a dysfunctional and disruptive transport network.

I don't agree and neither do the numbers. Newcastle was in a state of decay with empty shops and investment below $100 million per year. This has been the case for decades. Save Our Rail claimed that truncation would kill investment in the city. Instead, investment has gone from under $100 million pa before truncation was anounced to over $2 billion after it was announced. It has increased year on year by huge amounts. Just coincidence? I don't think so. Everytime you read a story about a new development or even a new business opening up it's the same thing, Newcastle has new found confidence since truncation and that is why people are investing.

The land was there and they COULD of invested but they DIDN'T.

Cities with above ground railways are cut by that railway and you often find the areas around those lines are blighted. There are dozens of examples of cities around the work closing underutilised heavy railways into their CBD's and, in many cases, replacing them by Light Rail with street running. Melbourne has two examples, the new light rail in Birmingham is another one. Croydon in London. Sorry your claim that Newcastle is the only country to do it is just plain WRONG.

The old heavy railway had very low usage and was declining, particularly at Newcastle Station. Most people who come to Newcastle have no need for heavy rail but do have the advantage of better connectivity within the city. As those who work in Honeysuckle and no longer have to walk 1km to get to a bus stop.There is much more to Newcastle than transport and much more to transport in Newcastle than 2km of heavy railway that very few people would ever use.

While you make good arguments and present alot of facts, you seem to have an agenda to push these ideas within a community which is undoubtedly full of rail enthusiasts.

The truncation of the Newcastle line is still fresh in alot of Novocastrian's minds...and speaking to many people, were dead against the idea at the time and still are. I know you will probably reply to this post quoting statistics, facts and figures, pie charts and surveys....but I am talking about my experience and probably many others who live here.

Until the Wickham interchange and Light Rail becomes a reality...this will be debated. At this point of time, the truncation is still regarded as controversial to many locals..until we see a suitable replacement to what we had previously at least.

Yes, people are entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts. I accept that some people don't like it, but I don't accept that they can distort the truth and at times, tell lies, to support their views.

I have watched Newcastle decay and yes, there are a number of factors for that. What is unacceptable is to sit back and not do anything. I am a resident of Newcastle and have children who I want to stay here or at least not be ashamed of the place. I found it totally offensive that when you express a different opinion you are accused of being a "Liberal stooge" or in some way linked to a developer.

As for being on a Railpage Australia™, I have been in transport and town planner for 40 years in 6 countries. I support good sound transport which complements the urban form. The 2km of railway in Newcastle does not go close to satisfying that basic criteria.

"Double grrrhhh" Damn very, very, slow internet - to continue.

The rail line HAD NOTHING to do whatsoever on any so called decline of Newcastle.

Blame that on building a lot of shopping centres elsewhere.

And some may deny it, it IS a land grab.

Point of order here.

Could the railfans and developers' advocates please stop quoting the entire post (including many prior posts) to which they are replying.

Same applies to anyone who considers himself outside these categories.

That should apply in ALL sections. Have you seen other sections in this forum that has "quote in quote in quote in quote in quote in quote in quote, etc & etc.

"Double grrrhhh" Damn very, very, slow internet - to continue.

The rail line HAD NOTHING to do whatsoever on any so called decline of Newcastle.

Blame that on building a lot of shopping centres elsewhere.

And some may deny it, it IS a land grab.

Point of order here.

Could the railfans and developers' advocates please stop quoting the entire post (including many prior posts) to which they are replying.

Same applies to anyone who considers himself outside these categories.

That should apply in ALL sections. Have you seen other sections in this forum that has "quote in quote in quote in quote in quote in quote in quote, etc & etc.

I don't know anyone who has said "rail killed the city" except defensive train types. The city decayed due to a number of reasons, a fact I stated in my last post. What does need to happen is to make changes to the city in recognition that times have changed. Industry has been removed from the waterfront and the opportunity now exists to create a waterfront city. Whilst the railway did not kill the city, the removal of it will make a positive change to the streetscape and the way the city operates. This is evidenced by the remarkable amount of investment in the city since truncation was announced.

The land grab makes no sense whatsoever. There is only 0.8 hectares being sold to the private sector, valued at $8 million at the most. If it is just a land grab, why did the government spend $500 million for such a tiny amount of land, most of which is jammed behind existing buildings?

I don't really expect an answer, but I thought I would try, once again, it is only 0.8 hectares.

It is stupid because politicians thought it would be a good idea to rip out trams in Sydney 50-60 years ago and now we are putting them back in. In 2017 Newcastle will have a V8supercar race but there will be no trains to get people to the track. There ain't nowhere near enough parking to cater for the amount of people that this event could bring to the city. Light rail won't be operating either and even when/if it is operating in the future it won't have the capacity to handle 100,000+ people for 3 days.

This is backwards thinking and there are many more options available that could have retained the railway and allow development to occur as well and opened up the foreshore. But both politicians and people such as yourself northern flyer are blind.

No V8 Supercar venue has a railway station any closer than in Newcastle which will only be 2km away. The Gold Coast is acknowledged as one of the most successful venues and is heavily reliant on light rail with no problems at all. Newcastle gets 50,000 people into and out of the east end for ANZAC Day every year without a hitch. It won't be a problem.

Who said they wanted development on the corridor? People wanted the heavy rail barrier removed so that the city is reconnected to the waterfront as it was in 1850. The biggest benefit will be all the public space between the old station and Perkins Street. It will transform the city and could not be done with heavy rail in place.

There is no solution that would retain heavy rail and given good access. If it was that easy it would have been done by now. What would you suggest.

The Olympic park street circuit travels over the train line. Bathurst actually has a station not so far but nobody really travels by train to the Bathurst 1000 or the 12 hour. Clipsal 500 is right on the edge of Adelaide and not far from light rail which is soon to be extended closer to the track in the near future. Albert park has 2 tram lines down either side of the track and with the completion of the Melbourne metro there will be a train station about 100 metres away at domain. Sandown has a railway station right beside it and the Gold coast has light rail right along the track. At 2km's away it will require thousands of buses to be at Hamilton or Wickham station to convey passengers and nobody is going to want to walk that far to get to a race track.

If the NSW government was genuine about meet the needs of the travelling public into and out of Newcastle now it has closed the line from Hamilton then it would reinstate the line underground.  There is now no impediment to the line being reinstated underground using cut and cover the low water table would not be a problem using the same techniques as are used to construct buildinds on the Gold Coast where many high rise buildings have basements well below sea level in sand which require waterproofing.  The line could come to the surface in Newcastle and a middle road could be used as a stabling facility for up to two trains.
The costs would not be much greater than the light rail and the objection of the line dividing the city would be overcome

If the NSW government was genuine about meet the needs of the travelling public into and out of Newcastle now it has closed the line from Hamilton then it would reinstate the line underground.  There is now no impediment to the line being reinstated underground using cut and cover the low water table would not be a problem using the same techniques as are used to construct buildings on the Gold Coast where many high rise buildings have basements well below sea level in sand which require waterproofing.  The line could come to the surface in Newcastle and a middle road could be used as a stabling facility for up to two trains.
The costs would not be much greater than the light rail and the objection of the line dividing the city would be overcome

The difference is that the last 2km of the Newcastle branch line cut the city in half with a crossing in the middle and very few passengers.

My analogy is perfectly accurate.

2km / 2 = 1km

I give up, it's like trying to reason with a zealot.

Person who uses facts that don't support your argument = zealot? Nice cop out.

If the NSW government was genuine about meet the needs of the travelling public into and out of Newcastle now it has closed the line from Hamilton then it would reinstate the line underground.  There is now no impediment to the line being reinstated underground using cut and cover the low water table would not be a problem using the same techniques as are used to construct buildings on the Gold Coast where many high rise buildings have basements well below sea level in sand which require waterproofing.  The line could come to the surface in Newcastle and a middle road could be used as a stabling facility for up to two trains.
The costs would not be much greater than the light rail and the objection of the line dividing the city would be overcome

The cost is prohibitive, well over $1 billion. 3km of underground railway below the water table, 3 stations underground with 200m platforms, underground stabling, buildings right next to the track in some places. Cottage Creek to go under (which kills off cut and cover). The government is not going to spend over a billion dollars so that a small number of people don't have to change from a train to a tram with a 30m walk.

It is stupid because politicians thought it would be a good idea to rip out trams in Sydney 50-60 years ago and now we are putting them back in. In 2017 Newcastle will have a V8supercar race but there will be no trains to get people to the track. There ain't nowhere near enough parking to cater for the amount of people that this event could bring to the city. Light rail won't be operating either and even when/if it is operating in the future it won't have the capacity to handle 100,000+ people for 3 days.

This is backwards thinking and there are many more options available that could have retained the railway and allow development to occur as well and opened up the foreshore. But both politicians and people such as yourself northern flyer are blind.

No V8 Supercar venue has a railway station any closer than in Newcastle which will only be 2km away. The Gold Coast is acknowledged as one of the most successful venues and is heavily reliant on light rail with no problems at all. Newcastle gets 50,000 people into and out of the east end for ANZAC Day every year without a hitch. It won't be a problem.

Who said they wanted development on the corridor? People wanted the heavy rail barrier removed so that the city is reconnected to the waterfront as it was in 1850. The biggest benefit will be all the public space between the old station and Perkins Street. It will transform the city and could not be done with heavy rail in place.

There is no solution that would retain heavy rail and given good access. If it was that easy it would have been done by now. What would you suggest.

The Olympic park street circuit travels over the train line. Bathurst actually has a station not so far but nobody really travels by train to the Bathurst 1000 or the 12 hour. Clipsal 500 is right on the edge of Adelaide and not far from light rail which is soon to be extended closer to the track in the near future. Albert park has 2 tram lines down either side of the track and with the completion of the Melbourne metro there will be a train station about 100 metres away at domain. Sandown has a railway station right beside it and the Gold coast has light rail right along the track. At 2km's away it will require thousands of buses to be at Hamilton or Wickham station to convey passengers and nobody is going to want to walk that far to get to a race track.

The original claim was that "In 2017 Newcastle will have a V8supercar race but there will be no trains to get people to the track"

There will be trains just 2km away. Very easy to shuttle people to and from the track and in 2019 it can be done with Light Rail. Olympic Park won't have a race in 2017 as it has not been popular, Adelaide's nearest railway station is at least 2km from the circuit. Other tracks you mention have light rail just like Newcastle will from 2019 which don't satisfy the requirement of "no trains". With the except of Sandown (which I missed), Newcastle will be better served by heavy rail than any other Supercar Circuit in 2017.

SFS and SCG have coped for over a century without heavy rail. I imagine that many people will do in Newcastle exactly what they do in Sydney and walk the 2km from Central to the SCG. Others will catch a shuttle.

The fact is that Supercars are plowing millions into the Newcastle 500 and have obviously looked at the transport arrangements and are satisfied with it. Today there are thousand of people at a concert at Nobbys. once again without any problems whatsoever. 50,000 make it to ANZAC Day every year.

In any case, if trains were still running, they could not have used Newcastle Station as the track is within a few metres of the track in Watt Street so access from the platforms would not have been possible.

It is stupid because politicians thought it would be a good idea to rip out trams in Sydney 50-60 years ago and now we are putting them back in. In 2017 Newcastle will have a V8supercar race but there will be no trains to get people to the track. There ain't nowhere near enough parking to cater for the amount of people that this event could bring to the city. Light rail won't be operating either and even when/if it is operating in the future it won't have the capacity to handle 100,000+ people for 3 days.

This is backwards thinking and there are many more options available that could have retained the railway and allow development to occur as well and opened up the foreshore. But both politicians and people such as yourself northern flyer are blind.

No V8 Supercar venue has a railway station any closer than in Newcastle which will only be 2km away. The Gold Coast is acknowledged as one of the most successful venues and is heavily reliant on light rail with no problems at all. Newcastle gets 50,000 people into and out of the east end for ANZAC Day every year without a hitch. It won't be a problem.

Who said they wanted development on the corridor? People wanted the heavy rail barrier removed so that the city is reconnected to the waterfront as it was in 1850. The biggest benefit will be all the public space between the old station and Perkins Street. It will transform the city and could not be done with heavy rail in place.

There is no solution that would retain heavy rail and given good access. If it was that easy it would have been done by now. What would you suggest.

The Olympic park street circuit travels over the train line. Bathurst actually has a station not so far but nobody really travels by train to the Bathurst 1000 or the 12 hour. Clipsal 500 is right on the edge of Adelaide and not far from light rail which is soon to be extended closer to the track in the near future. Albert park has 2 tram lines down either side of the track and with the completion of the Melbourne metro there will be a train station about 100 metres away at domain. Sandown has a railway station right beside it and the Gold coast has light rail right along the track. At 2km's away it will require thousands of buses to be at Hamilton or Wickham station to convey passengers and nobody is going to want to walk that far to get to a race track.

The original claim was that "In 2017 Newcastle will have a V8supercar race but there will be no trains to get people to the track"

There will be trains just 2km away. Very easy to shuttle people to and from the track and in 2019 it can be done with Light Rail. Olympic Park won't have a race in 2017 as it has not been popular, Adelaide's nearest railway station is at least 2km from the circuit. Other tracks you mention have light rail just like Newcastle will from 2019 which don't satisfy the requirement of "no trains". With the except of Sandown (which I missed), Newcastle will be better served by heavy rail than any other Supercar Circuit in 2017.

SFS and SCG have coped for over a century without heavy rail. I imagine that many people will do in Newcastle exactly what they do in Sydney and walk the 2km from Central to the SCG. Others will catch a shuttle.

The fact is that Supercars are plowing millions into the Newcastle 500 and have obviously looked at the transport arrangements and are satisfied with it. Today there are thousand of people at a concert at Nobbys. once again without any problems whatsoever. 50,000 make it to ANZAC Day every year.

In any case, if trains were still running, they could not have used Newcastle Station as the track is within a few metres of the track in Watt Street so access from the platforms would not have been possible.

Olympic park has been very popular, but just like Newcastle this current government wants to develop it and so just like Amaroo and Oran Park. V8's at Olympic park will make way for housing.

It is stupid because politicians thought it would be a good idea to rip out trams in Sydney 50-60 years ago and now we are putting them back in. In 2017 Newcastle will have a V8supercar race but there will be no trains to get people to the track. There ain't nowhere near enough parking to cater for the amount of people that this event could bring to the city. Light rail won't be operating either and even when/if it is operating in the future it won't have the capacity to handle 100,000+ people for 3 days.

This is backwards thinking and there are many more options available that could have retained the railway and allow development to occur as well and opened up the foreshore. But both politicians and people such as yourself northern flyer are blind.

No V8 Supercar venue has a railway station any closer than in Newcastle which will only be 2km away. The Gold Coast is acknowledged as one of the most successful venues and is heavily reliant on light rail with no problems at all. Newcastle gets 50,000 people into and out of the east end for ANZAC Day every year without a hitch. It won't be a problem.

Who said they wanted development on the corridor? People wanted the heavy rail barrier removed so that the city is reconnected to the waterfront as it was in 1850. The biggest benefit will be all the public space between the old station and Perkins Street. It will transform the city and could not be done with heavy rail in place.

There is no solution that would retain heavy rail and given good access. If it was that easy it would have been done by now. What would you suggest.

The Olympic park street circuit travels over the train line. Bathurst actually has a station not so far but nobody really travels by train to the Bathurst 1000 or the 12 hour. Clipsal 500 is right on the edge of Adelaide and not far from light rail which is soon to be extended closer to the track in the near future. Albert park has 2 tram lines down either side of the track and with the completion of the Melbourne metro there will be a train station about 100 metres away at domain. Sandown has a railway station right beside it and the Gold coast has light rail right along the track. At 2km's away it will require thousands of buses to be at Hamilton or Wickham station to convey passengers and nobody is going to want to walk that far to get to a race track.

The original claim was that "In 2017 Newcastle will have a V8supercar race but there will be no trains to get people to the track"

There will be trains just 2km away. Very easy to shuttle people to and from the track and in 2019 it can be done with Light Rail. Olympic Park won't have a race in 2017 as it has not been popular, Adelaide's nearest railway station is at least 2km from the circuit. Other tracks you mention have light rail just like Newcastle will from 2019 which don't satisfy the requirement of "no trains". With the except of Sandown (which I missed), Newcastle will be better served by heavy rail than any other Supercar Circuit in 2017.

SFS and SCG have coped for over a century without heavy rail. I imagine that many people will do in Newcastle exactly what they do in Sydney and walk the 2km from Central to the SCG. Others will catch a shuttle.

The fact is that Supercars are plowing millions into the Newcastle 500 and have obviously looked at the transport arrangements and are satisfied with it. Today there are thousand of people at a concert at Nobbys. once again without any problems whatsoever. 50,000 make it to ANZAC Day every year.

In any case, if trains were still running, they could not have used Newcastle Station as the track is within a few metres of the track in Watt Street so access from the platforms would not have been possible.

Olympic park has been very popular, but just like Newcastle this current government wants to develop it and so just like Amaroo and Oran Park. V8's at Olympic park will make way for housing.

According to every report I have read, they are loosing money. Attendance has been low and costs high despite having the best heavy rail connection. http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/v8-supercars-set-to-abandon-sydney-olympic-park-for-gosford-20151206-glgqh9.html

The V8 track at Olympic Park goes nowhere near any potential residential areas so have you got any substance for your claim?

I don't know what your talking about but it is most certainly development and not that it loses money. The parramatta light rail will be going through there and because of that the circuit can no longer function. The whole area from Olympic park through to Rosehill and Parramatta is going to have huge developments on it and the light rail will run along what is the front straight of the layout.

I have gone to this event many times and will be going there again in 2 weeks. There is always plenty of people, especially near where the pits are situated and around the station area.

The main problem is that they couldn't get people to buy grandstand tickets because they are so expensive and so most people only buy general admission.

I don't know what your talking about but it is most certainly development and not that it loses money. The parramatta light rail will be going through there and because of that the circuit can no longer function. The whole area from Olympic park through to Rosehill and Parramatta is going to have huge developments on it and the light rail will run along what is the front straight of the layout.

I have gone to this event many times and will be going there again in 2 weeks. There is always plenty of people, especially near where the pits are situated and around the station area.

The main problem is that they couldn't get people to buy grandstand tickets because they are so expensive and so most people only buy general admission.

I am only going on consistent reports that Olympic Park is not attracting the numbers they had hoped for. This may be because it is not that much different from Eastern Creek and certainly doesn't have the feel of a street circuit. Newcastle will feel very different running along the harbour, the beach and narrow heritage streets.

I wouldn't count on Light Rail going through the Olympic Park circuit just yet particularity with the talk of a Metro as an option to Parramatta. In any case, it will only effect services for three days as will be the case for Newcastle where the circuit will isolate the eastern section of Light Rail.

I can't image the possibility of light rail would have been a main reason for canning the event at Olympic Park, nor the plans for more residential nearby which has been part of the masterplan from the 1990's.

Removal of heavy rail is certainly not stopping unprecedented investment in Newcastle  http://www.theherald.com.au/story/4313134/mall-and-all-buyer-found-for-gpt-site-interactive/?cs=305

The new interchange station will be called 'Newcastle Interchange'. Quite frankly that is a hopeless name, something like 'Newcastle Central' or 'Honeysuckle' would've been so much better.

https://www.facebook.com/NSWPublicTransport/posts/648086362041865

The new interchange station will be called 'Newcastle Interchange'. Quite frankly that is a hopeless name, something like 'Newcastle Central' or 'Honeysuckle' would've been so much better.

https://www.facebook.com/NSWPublicTransport/posts/648086362041865

The argument I heard is that they still wanted "Newcastle" in the name to identify that it will be the main station in Newcastle (think overseas travelers) but still differentiate it from the closed "Nwcastle" 2km away.

Speedbird, you are PARTLY correct. IF we must have this Developers Interchange, call it one of these: Wickham Terminus, Wickham-Newcastle Terminus, Wickham(Newcastle) Terminus.

Their is already a "Newcastle Interchange". Page 2 of this PDF: http://tinyurl.com/zd5ez3w

Dictator Baird, transport & planning ministers should realise that the GNB hasn't even given approval for the name yet.

Speedbird, you are PARTLY correct. IF we must have this Developers Interchange, call it one of these: Wickham Terminus, Wickham-Newcastle Terminus, Wickham(Newcastle) Terminus.

Their is already a "Newcastle Interchange". Page 2 of this PDF: http://tinyurl.com/zd5ez3w

Dictator Baird, transport & planning ministers should realise that the GNB hasn't even given approval for the name yet.

I know that attacking "greedy developers" gives you some solace, but try to get your facts straight.

How is the interchange the "Developers interchange"? When the NSW Government went out for community consultation on the location for the interchange and light rail route, both the Property Council and Hunter Business Chamber backed an interchange at Broadmeadow, not Wickham. When the Labor Government did a scientifi survey on Wickham Interchange, over 70% of respondents supported it. To say it is what developers asked for is factually incorrect. It has been favored by both sides of government and nearly 3/4 of the community. The PCA and HBC have been the odd ones out in NOT supporting it.

The Wickham Interchange was put forward by Professor Steffen Lehmann, then head of Architecture at Newcastle University and [color=#006fa6][size=3][font=Arial, sans-serif]UNESCO Chair in Sustainable Urban Development for Asia and the Pacific[/font][/size][/color]. He is one of the most experienced academics on the planet when it comes to sustainable design. Hardly a "greedy developer". The Wickham option was picked up by the Labor government and considerable design work was done before they were defeated in the 2011 election.

Now that that is proven to be BS, let's move to the RMS version of "Newcastle Interchange". In that case, it is nothing but a couple of signs (maybe three) at the junction of motorways 20km west of the CBD. It is not offical in any way and not a reason not to give this obvious name to what will be the interchange that is in Newcastle West and a short walk from Newcastle itself (based on postcode boundaries).

As far as "Dictator Baird" is concerned, this would apply to every single government in the world. Governments make decisions on behalf of those who elected them. You don't like one decision the current government has made, but that's democracy. In this case, they have done what over 70% of the community told the Labor Government should be done.