Airport rail not a priority, but widening Tullamarine Freeway is

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 03 Oct 2016 09:23
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The airport link will be much easier to construct than the RRL.

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  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The airport link will be much easier to construct than the RRL.
bevans
This is where I think the Gold Plated option is proving to be way too expensive.

So for once, copy the Americans, upgrade the freight BG line, build single track to the airport from the BG freight line, viaduct last few km into airport and elevated island station, add an extra station on BG freight line, no wires, 20-30min frequency depending on time of day, use V/locities (need to buy additional units) kitted out for airport use, ie luggage racks etc, operating 16-18hr a day, job done!
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The airport link will be much easier to construct than the RRL.
This is where I think the Gold Plated option is proving to be way too expensive.

So for once, copy the Americans, upgrade the freight BG line, build single track to the airport from the BG freight line, viaduct last few km into airport and elevated island station, add an extra station on BG freight line, no wires, 20-30min frequency depending on time of day, use V/locities (need to buy additional units) kitted out for airport use, ie luggage racks etc, operating 16-18hr a day, job done!
RTT_Rules
By the time you've upgraded the existing BG Line, you're probably just as well off paying for a whole new piece of track. The current track is limited to 20 km/h in some places so getting that up to scratch is essentially a rebuild anyway.

Remember that VLocity units are much more expensive to build and maintain than electric rolling stock, so ordering more of them to save money doesn't stack up in the long run. There really isn't need for additional luggage racks either. People manage everywhere else in the world.

A 20-30 minute service will never pull the passengers away from using their cars, it really needs to be turn up and go to be seen as a reliable and viable alternative for people.

The whole thing would be a lot less expensive if the airport chipped in and helped pay for the construction costs. In doing so, it would earn itself the right to charge access fees for a set period of time (both of which should of course be regulated by the government). At the moment we're just in a situation where everyone wants it, but no one, not even those with the money, want to pay for it.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I mentioned previously, the BG freight line would be rebuilt from ground up and mostly duplicated apart from the Viaduct  the earth works required is minimal and avoid high cost items like OH and a new viaduct.

The new track from there is expensive, most would be elevated and mostly a continous Viaduct like Brisbane. Hence single track mor of it apart from last 500m or so. Again avoiding costly OH.

V/locities. Considering the high frequency service to Geelong appears viable over stringing wires then sane to airport. A number of Nth American airports cannot be that wrong.

20min is more than sufficent until you are filling 6 car trains as most of the rest of the network survives on this and 30min for lessor times.

Brisbane survived economically and grew in numbers on mostly 30min for first 10 years and the airport is much closer to city. Basically is you missed the train you could catch a cab and be in the city before next one left. Tulla us over twice the distance away.

Again this is about removing gold plating to get the thing to a price where it's viable. It's not about trying to get as many pax as possible as those marginal pax are costly to attract. If you strip it down to basics it may just be a commercially viable project without need for a subsidy.

Line can be upgraded to duplication and OH as needed in future without impact on operations if built correctly.

trains that typically only service the Airport typically have luggage racks and how many airport lines do you want me to nominate? Without luggage racks where nearly every passenger has baggage, you will loose about 50% of the seating due to bags dumped on seats potentially damaging the seat over time and see door ways blocked. With luggage racks you loose about 10-15% of the seating.  

The airport has no interest in building a railway to its doors and if I owned the airport I wouldn't pay. The line on latest estimates is also bloody expensive so how much do you expect them to pay?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Again Exclamation...there is only so much $$ in the kitty and Melbourne is expanding at what rate...about 100,000 people every few months and you want to spend precious resources on a very difficult to construct, fixed rail service to the airport so pax can use it when they go on holidays every year or so Question
And why exactly would the airport link be so difficult to construct?  The majority of the route is along an existing rail corridor with room to add additional tracks if necessary and no level crossing on any part of the route.


An airport train could then run express as follows: Southern Cross, Footscray, Sunshine, Airport, Broadmeadows.

Ross
Rossco T

Clearly you do NOT travel on the RRL every day as I do...and as I've written several times before...nothing's changed...it's only getting worse.

The peak usage of the RRL is between 7:30 and 9:00 and between 16:00 and 18:30 with headways as close as three minutes and often there's congestion and slow running between Sunshine and Footscray where all stations sparks often overtake V/Line trains that are allowed to travel at 130KPH.

With those headways just 3 years since the RRL opened and the promise of more peak trains along the corridor, peak commuter flights arriving and departing Melbourne airport along similar timelines I stated, how do you envisage operating even more trains along the already jammed corridor with a comfy, fast, efficient airtrain mixing it with peak V/Line services Question

You'll have to wait till the Melbourne Metro is completed and the newly constructed airport rail corridor will have dedicated tracks, possibly partly a 'skyrail' through Sunshine/Footscray and drop into the newly constructed tunnel somewhere near Footscray/Maribyrnong River but currently planned for the vicinity of South Kensington.

IMO....(In My Opinion), lot's of $$$ have to be spent and the alternative option of a tunnel to/from the Flemington Racecourse line can't be ruled out.

Mike.
  Flygon Train Controller

Location: Australia
Just because VLos run such intense frequencies on the Geelong line doesn't mean that's a good thing.

It really flogs the DMUs, quite hard, and it's an expensive operation to manage.

With all the fuel and maintenance expenses, you're well within the territory to justify electrification. Of course, the bureaucrats here stare at electricity and only see the Capex expense.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Again Exclamation...there is only so much $$ in the kitty and Melbourne is expanding at what rate...about 100,000 people every few months and you want to spend precious resources on a very difficult to construct, fixed rail service to the airport so pax can use it when they go on holidays every year or so Question
And why exactly would the airport link be so difficult to construct?  The majority of the route is along an existing rail corridor with room to add additional tracks if necessary and no level crossing on any part of the route.


An airport train could then run express as follows: Southern Cross, Footscray, Sunshine, Airport, Broadmeadows.

Ross
Clearly you do NOT travel on the RRL every day as I do...and as I've written several times before...nothing's changed...it's only getting worse.

The peak usage of the RRL is between 7:30 and 9:00 and between 16:00 and 18:30 with headways as close as three minutes and often there's congestion and slow running between Sunshine and Footscray where all stations sparks often overtake V/Line trains that are allowed to travel at 130KPH.

With those headways just 3 years since the RRL opened and the promise of more peak trains along the corridor, peak commuter flights arriving and departing Melbourne airport along similar timelines I stated, how do you envisage operating even more trains along the already jammed corridor with a comfy, fast, efficient airtrain mixing it with peak V/Line services Question

You'll have to wait till the Melbourne Metro is completed and the newly constructed airport rail corridor will have dedicated tracks, possibly partly a 'skyrail' through Sunshine/Footscray and drop into the newly constructed tunnel somewhere near Footscray/Maribyrnong River but currently planned for the vicinity of South Kensington.

IMO....(In My Opinion), lot's of $$$ have to be spent and the alternative option of a tunnel to/from the Flemington Racecourse line can't be ruled out.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Well this explains quite clearly why the Airport line is so expesnsive and why it will not be built anytime soon and at $2-3B is this a priority for the govt until other issues are resolved?
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
with suburbs etc spreading out that way I think you will find an increasing percentage of traffic in the widened areas of the freeway is commuters. If it wasn't the traffic congestion would be towards the airport in the morning and towards the CBD at night or maybe equally each way.  The reality is the traffic jams are in the direction of the daily commute (ie towards CBD in the morning, outbound at night). An airport dedicated train (at the usual higher rate) won't solve the problem.

Also I think you will find a large % of the funds are coming from Citylink (or Transurban their owner). This is often done with an extension on their contract as part of the deal. They need vehicles to be moving to make money.

The government doesn't always lose out either - the clause prohibiting the construction of a rail line in competition was removed as part of the Tulla/Calder and Westgate/Bolte merge projects and they probably removed any objection to the completion of the ring road as part of later upgrade negotiations. You would need access to the contracts to work out what the deal was as all the parts are not always publicly announced.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria

Again Exclamation...there is only so much $$ in the kitty and Melbourne is expanding at what rate...about 100,000 people every few months and you want to spend precious resources on a very difficult to construct, fixed rail service to the airport so pax can use it when they go on holidays every year or so Question
And why exactly would the airport link be so difficult to construct?  The majority of the route is along an existing rail corridor with room to add additional tracks if necessary and no level crossing on any part of the route.


An airport train could then run express as follows: Southern Cross, Footscray, Sunshine, Airport, Broadmeadows.

Ross
Clearly you do NOT travel on the RRL every day as I do...and as I've written several times before...nothing's changed...it's only getting worse.

The peak usage of the RRL is between 7:30 and 9:00 and between 16:00 and 18:30 with headways as close as three minutes and often there's congestion and slow running between Sunshine and Footscray where all stations sparks often overtake V/Line trains that are allowed to travel at 130KPH.

With those headways just 3 years since the RRL opened and the promise of more peak trains along the corridor, peak commuter flights arriving and departing Melbourne airport along similar timelines I stated, how do you envisage operating even more trains along the already jammed corridor with a comfy, fast, efficient airtrain mixing it with peak V/Line services Question

You'll have to wait till the Melbourne Metro is completed and the newly constructed airport rail corridor will have dedicated tracks, possibly partly a 'skyrail' through Sunshine/Footscray and drop into the newly constructed tunnel somewhere near Footscray/Maribyrnong River but currently planned for the vicinity of South Kensington.

IMO....(In My Opinion), lot's of $$$ have to be spent and the alternative option of a tunnel to/from the Flemington Racecourse line can't be ruled out.

Mike.
The Vinelander

It is true that I am not a regular commuter along the RRL in peak periods, however I would have thought that with 2 parallel track pairs between Sunshine and Footscray it would be possible to fit in more services if the tracks were used more efficiently, rather than one pair for Metro and one pair for V/Line.

From my quick review of the timetables it looks like there are currently 15 inward bound trains using the RRL in the AM peak hour (8-9am) which would give a 4 minute headway.

On the parallel electrified track from Sunbury there are currently 9 inward services during the same peak hour (6.7 min headways).

I am no timetable expert, but it would seems that perhaps the 2 track pairs could be used more efficiently with a better balancing of services between the two track pairs.  As you say in your comment that the stopping all stations services are often faster than the express services on the RRL.  Clearly something is wrong with the existing scheduling.

There is also the potential to rationalise the Tottenham yard to provide an additional BG track pair that could be used for overtake manouevres to overtake SAS trains between Sunshine and Footscray.

All I'm saying is that it should be possible to get more efficient use out of the existing corridor without the need for expensive skyrail or tunnelling.  It just maybe needs a bit more holistic review of options within the existing corridor rather than artificial limitations due to one pair of tracks being designated as "V/Line" and the other pair of tracks designated as "Metro".

Ross
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria

Again Exclamation...there is only so much $$ in the kitty and Melbourne is expanding at what rate...about 100,000 people every few months and you want to spend precious resources on a very difficult to construct, fixed rail service to the airport so pax can use it when they go on holidays every year or so Question
And why exactly would the airport link be so difficult to construct?  The majority of the route is along an existing rail corridor with room to add additional tracks if necessary and no level crossing on any part of the route.


An airport train could then run express as follows: Southern Cross, Footscray, Sunshine, Airport, Broadmeadows.

Ross
Clearly you do NOT travel on the RRL every day as I do...and as I've written several times before...nothing's changed...it's only getting worse.

The peak usage of the RRL is between 7:30 and 9:00 and between 16:00 and 18:30 with headways as close as three minutes and often there's congestion and slow running between Sunshine and Footscray where all stations sparks often overtake V/Line trains that are allowed to travel at 130KPH.

With those headways just 3 years since the RRL opened and the promise of more peak trains along the corridor, peak commuter flights arriving and departing Melbourne airport along similar timelines I stated, how do you envisage operating even more trains along the already jammed corridor with a comfy, fast, efficient airtrain mixing it with peak V/Line services Question

You'll have to wait till the Melbourne Metro is completed and the newly constructed airport rail corridor will have dedicated tracks, possibly partly a 'skyrail' through Sunshine/Footscray and drop into the newly constructed tunnel somewhere near Footscray/Maribyrnong River but currently planned for the vicinity of South Kensington.

IMO....(In My Opinion), lot's of $$$ have to be spent and the alternative option of a tunnel to/from the Flemington Racecourse line can't be ruled out.

Mike.
It is true that I am not a regular commuter along the RRL in peak periods, however I would have thought that with 2 parallel track pairs between Sunshine and Footscray it would be possible to fit in more services if the tracks were used more efficiently, rather than one pair for Metro and one pair for V/Line.

From my quick review of the timetables it looks like there are currently 15 inward bound trains using the RRL in the AM peak hour (8-9am) which would give a 4 minute headway.

On the parallel electrified track from Sunbury there are currently 9 inward services during the same peak hour (6.7 min headways).

I am no timetable expert, but it would seems that perhaps the 2 track pairs could be used more efficiently with a better balancing of services between the two track pairs.  As you say in your comment that the stopping all stations services are often faster than the express services on the RRL.  Clearly something is wrong with the existing scheduling.

There is also the potential to rationalise the Tottenham yard to provide an additional BG track pair that could be used for overtake manouevres to overtake SAS trains between Sunshine and Footscray.

All I'm saying is that it should be possible to get more efficient use out of the existing corridor without the need for expensive skyrail or tunnelling.  It just maybe needs a bit more holistic review of options within the existing corridor rather than artificial limitations due to one pair of tracks being designated as "V/Line" and the other pair of tracks designated as "Metro".

Ross
Rossco T
Another option would be to put a small number of the express services on the Geelong line back through Werribee to give some spare capacity back to the RRL.  It is not as though the Government has used the spare capacity on the Werribee line to add more suburban services!

Ross
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner


Again Exclamation...there is only so much $$ in the kitty and Melbourne is expanding at what rate...about 100,000 people every few months and you want to spend precious resources on a very difficult to construct, fixed rail service to the airport so pax can use it when they go on holidays every year or so Question
And why exactly would the airport link be so difficult to construct?  The majority of the route is along an existing rail corridor with room to add additional tracks if necessary and no level crossing on any part of the route.


An airport train could then run express as follows: Southern Cross, Footscray, Sunshine, Airport, Broadmeadows.

Ross
Clearly you do NOT travel on the RRL every day as I do...and as I've written several times before...nothing's changed...it's only getting worse.

The peak usage of the RRL is between 7:30 and 9:00 and between 16:00 and 18:30 with headways as close as three minutes and often there's congestion and slow running between Sunshine and Footscray where all stations sparks often overtake V/Line trains that are allowed to travel at 130KPH.

With those headways just 3 years since the RRL opened and the promise of more peak trains along the corridor, peak commuter flights arriving and departing Melbourne airport along similar timelines I stated, how do you envisage operating even more trains along the already jammed corridor with a comfy, fast, efficient airtrain mixing it with peak V/Line services Question

You'll have to wait till the Melbourne Metro is completed and the newly constructed airport rail corridor will have dedicated tracks, possibly partly a 'skyrail' through Sunshine/Footscray and drop into the newly constructed tunnel somewhere near Footscray/Maribyrnong River but currently planned for the vicinity of South Kensington.

IMO....(In My Opinion), lot's of $$$ have to be spent and the alternative option of a tunnel to/from the Flemington Racecourse line can't be ruled out.

Mike.
The Vinelander
That is true the RRL will be congested. What I do not understand is if there is going to be a need for an express turn up and go Metro service which will require new separate tracks, why use the Albion route. It would be better to find a more direct route?
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

The airport link will be much easier to construct than the RRL.
This is where I think the Gold Plated option is proving to be way too expensive.

So for once, copy the Americans, upgrade the freight BG line, build single track to the airport from the BG freight line, viaduct last few km into airport and elevated island station, add an extra station on BG freight line, no wires, 20-30min frequency depending on time of day, use V/locities (need to buy additional units) kitted out for airport use, ie luggage racks etc, operating 16-18hr a day, job done!
By the time you've upgraded the existing BG Line, you're probably just as well off paying for a whole new piece of track. The current track is limited to 20 km/h in some places so getting that up to scratch is essentially a rebuild anyway.

Remember that VLocity units are much more expensive to build and maintain than electric rolling stock, so ordering more of them to save money doesn't stack up in the long run. There really isn't need for additional luggage racks either. People manage everywhere else in the world.

A 20-30 minute service will never pull the passengers away from using their cars, it really needs to be turn up and go to be seen as a reliable and viable alternative for people.

The whole thing would be a lot less expensive if the airport chipped in and helped pay for the construction costs. In doing so, it would earn itself the right to charge access fees for a set period of time (both of which should of course be regulated by the government). At the moment we're just in a situation where everyone wants it, but no one, not even those with the money, want to pay for it.
TOQ-1
By the time you've upgraded the existing BG Line, you're probably just as well off paying for a whole new piece of track. The current track is limited to 20 km/h in some places so getting that up to scratch is essentially a rebuild anyway.

It will still be cheaper to rebuild the BG track then to set aside space to build a new track pair.

Remember that VLocity units are much more expensive to build and maintain than electric rolling stock, so ordering more of them to save money doesn't stack up in the long run.

That is true, especially in this state where we purchase the most basic and cheap of products where Electric Trains are concerned. Electric Traction does save money in the long run, if you are talking about 25kv AC. Using Melbourne 1500 dc, which would happen because both parties say they want it to link up with the Metro system is expensive. Heavier wire is used and Direct Current requires more substations to be built.

A 20-30 minute service will never pull the passengers away from using their cars, it really needs to be turn up and go to be seen as a reliable and viable alternative for people.

A turn up and go Airport service is far from vital and would be a waste of money. More capacity for the Bendigo corridor however is far more pressing need. Diverting Bendigo Services away from the Sunbury line via the Airport building new tracks north would be a cheaper option and allow for more train services for both Metro and Bendigo.

The whole thing would be a lot less expensive if the airport chipped in and helped pay for the construction costs. In doing so, it would earn itself the right to charge access fees for a set period of time (both of which should of course be regulated by the government).

That is not going to happen. And any access charge for Stations will simply be passed on to the passenger.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Just because VLos run such intense frequencies on the Geelong line doesn't mean that's a good thing.

It really flogs the DMUs, quite hard, and it's an expensive operation to manage.

With all the fuel and maintenance expenses, you're well within the territory to justify electrification. Of course, the bureaucrats here stare at electricity and only see the Capex expense.
Flygon
Nope stringing wires is expensive here because we used 1,500 dc which is expensive rather than 25kv ac.

Michael
  mk4c Station Master

At Heathrow you can either pay GBP22 (~$40) for Heathrow express that departs every 15 minutes or take the cheaper Heathrow Connect that runs every half hour. Narita has two competing companies that between them give an average wait of 20 minutes for a train. In Paris the airport is at the end of an RER line so you get a train every 6 - 12 minutes but stop at a lot of intermediate stations before getting to the city centre. I don't know that the expectation of frequent trains *and* a direct service is justified. If the airport station were part of the wider system with other stops on the same line then maybe you would have enough combined patronage to get a frequent service.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
I'm not so sure. From Heathrow people have the choice of taking the cheap stopping all stations Tube train into London, or being fleeced by the awesomely expensive Heathrow express. I know a few rich people (sadly I'm not one of them) and even they take the Tube over the express, which appears to only be used by people when their employer is paying.

In June I flew into Stockholm Arlanda airport from Heathrow and was pleasantly surprised at the reasonable price of a bus into the city. After a few days in Stockholm I had to fly with others to Visby, a regional Swedish city, so I got the train to the airport instead. I forget the exact price, but it was several times more expensive than the bus. Yes, it was bit faster, but there was no way I would have paid the extortionate train fare if I wasn't travelling with colleagues when there was the alternative of a cheap and efficient bus.

So IF an express train line is ever built to Tullamarine, I think we can be confident that "the powers that be" in Victoria will look at how much expresses to places like Heathrow and Arlanda cost and charge at least $50 each way (probably more). While such a train will appeal to politicians, bureaucrats and senior business people, it will be priced beyond the means of ordinary riff-raff like me, so I anticipate continuing to use Skybus whether the line is built or not
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I'm not so sure. From Heathrow people have the choice of taking the cheap stopping all stations Tube train into London, or being fleeced by the awesomely expensive Heathrow express. I know a few rich people (sadly I'm not one of them) and even they take the Tube over the express, which appears to only be used by people when their employer is paying.
Bogong

When I holiday in England I always purchase a First Class British Rail pass before leaving Australia.

Apart from travelling all over rural England in First Class it also allows 'free' First Class travel on the normally hideously expensive Heathrow Express which is only 15 mins to London Paddington, whereas the tube takes over 45 mins.

Consequently, as a lowly paid public servant I've only ever travelled on the Heathrow Express to/from the airport and only in First class...Laughing

https://www.heathrowexpress.com/

However I doubt the AU$50.00 each way First Class fare on the Heathrow Express would be replicated in Melbourne even if the new line were to be built by a private consortium.

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Just because VLos run such intense frequencies on the Geelong line doesn't mean that's a good thing.

It really flogs the DMUs, quite hard, and it's an expensive operation to manage.

With all the fuel and maintenance expenses, you're well within the territory to justify electrification. Of course, the bureaucrats here stare at electricity and only see the Capex expense.
Flygon

I agree that Geelong should be electrified and operated with electric vlo's. The same should be the case with ballarat and bendigo.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Just because VLos run such intense frequencies on the Geelong line doesn't mean that's a good thing.

It really flogs the DMUs, quite hard, and it's an expensive operation to manage.

With all the fuel and maintenance expenses, you're well within the territory to justify electrification. Of course, the bureaucrats here stare at electricity and only see the Capex expense.

I agree that Geelong should be electrified and operated with electric vlo's. The same should be the case with ballarat and bendigo.
simstrain
Not sure why the govt won't commit apart from the fact it owns the VLO's. If the numbers stack up their accountants would tell them.


Overall in my travels I have found the cheapest way to the airport is rarely the fanfare'ed Airport rail service anywhere, but as a rule I use it anyway because I'm paying for convenience and usually comfort. But at $50 for Heathrow if and when I use it Heathrow it probably won't be on that train.

$20-25 for Melbourne Airport is likely to be the ball park price for its rail when and if it comes within next 10 years considering the distance and engineering required.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The reason that the Heathrow Express can charge so much for tickets is because
1. They offer two class levels, so you can choose to pay more or less
2. The National Rail services in the UK charge fares in a similar manner to airlines where (generally) the further out you book, the cheaper your fare is.
(and to a lesser extent)
3. There is the entry level service of the Tube, so people have a choice of whether to take the Heathrow Express or not.


An Airport rail service in Melbourne will not do this. Our fares are zoned based, not demand based. There won't be two class levels on the train, because chances are it will pick up and drop off in both directions from Sunshine and Footscray, and that adds a layer of complexity there that probably no one wants to deal with.

Having an additional flat fee charged to the Myki Fee when someone passes through the gate of around $10-15 is probably the best option (That's $15 + Your original zone fare). You could even call it Zone A or something and note that special fares apply. When you touch on at Flinders Street, and off at the airport, you pay for Zones 1+2+A.

All you'd need is gates at the airport that do not let you through unless you have the correct balance on your Myki. You'd just have plenty of top up machines inside the barriers and signs (and maybe staff - imagine that!) everywhere telling you that you need $15 and your original fare to touch off.

People who work at the Airport could be issued with Mykis that have a pass for Zones 1-A (which would not be readily purchasable by the general public) already loaded so they could access the airport without incurring the access fee each time.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Seems rather cumbersome.  What about travel FROM the airport?  A trip originating at the airport could potentially terminate at any other station, not just the City ones, therefore, to paraphrase -

"All you'd need is gates at the destination that do not let you through unless you have the correct balance on your Myki, [meaning  that] ..... you need $15 and your original fare to touch off."

Implying that the exit gates at all other stations would have to recognise that this trip originated at the airport, and react accordingly.  But it it's an unattended station that wouldn't mean much.

Alternatively, the extra charge would have to be paid at the airport, prior to touching on.  More difficult for arriving foreigners, who may not yet have any local currency, but an extra level of complexity for anyone.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
... Alternatively, the extra charge would have to be paid at the airport, prior to touching on.  More difficult for arriving foreigners, who may not yet have any local currency, but an extra level of complexity for anyone.
Lad_Porter
Honestly, who needs currency? Almost everyone who travels by aeroplane has a credit or debit card. The only exceptions are those who are also accompanied by a responsible adult such as children, prisoners and geriatrics.

It's interesting that these days most transactions over about $20 are paid for with a card rather than cash. Of course there are few die hard cash fans out there (not all of them are in the black economy either), but even they have a card with them when they travel, even if they prefer not to use it.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Honestly, who needs currency? Almost everyone who travels by aeroplane has a credit or debit card. The only exceptions are those who are also accompanied by a responsible adult such as children, prisoners and geriatrics.

It's interesting that these days most transactions over about $20 are paid for with a card rather than cash. Of course there are few die hard cash fans out there (not all of them are in the black economy either), but even they have a card with them when they travel, even if they prefer not to use it.
Bogong
Absolutely agree Bogong, I run my own business and the problem nowadays is the opposite - we get customers trying to pay for $2 items with a card. The little bit of cash that we got used to be used for paying for Milk for the staff room etc now we barely get any at all

BG
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Seems rather cumbersome.  What about travel FROM the airport?  A trip originating at the airport could potentially terminate at any other station, not just the City ones, therefore, to paraphrase -

"All you'd need is gates at the destination that do not let you through unless you have the correct balance on your Myki, [meaning  that] ..... you need $15 and your original fare to touch off."

Implying that the exit gates at all other stations would have to recognise that this trip originated at the airport, and react accordingly.  But it it's an unattended station that wouldn't mean much.

Alternatively, the extra charge would have to be paid at the airport, prior to touching on.  More difficult for arriving foreigners, who may not yet have any local currency, but an extra level of complexity for anyone.
Lad_Porter
If I were to go overseas and use a railway I would expect to use whatever ticketing system that they have there. It should be no problem for anyone getting off a plane to purchase a ticket, and if they have really come into Australia without any currency (which is generally seen as suspicious), there are plenty of outlets at the airport to exchange.

You could just make sure that any myki sold at the Airport had to be loaded with at least the Access Fee and a Zone 1+2 Fare, not just the standard dollar that is required elsewhere. (If you have to buy a Myki off a Vline conductor because an unstaffed station's ticket machine is broken, you pay a flat $30, $6 for the card and $24 preloaded so there's enough to cover a Vline journey).

At the airports, unless you had the $15, the gates just wouldn't open whether you were entering or exiting. Having enough money for the rest of the fare is the responsibility of the passenger, or customer, as we're all now known.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Seems rather cumbersome.  What about travel FROM the airport?  A trip originating at the airport could potentially terminate at any other station, not just the City ones, therefore, to paraphrase -

"All you'd need is gates at the destination that do not let you through unless you have the correct balance on your Myki, [meaning  that] ..... you need $15 and your original fare to touch off."

Implying that the exit gates at all other stations would have to recognise that this trip originated at the airport, and react accordingly.  But it it's an unattended station that wouldn't mean much.

Alternatively, the extra charge would have to be paid at the airport, prior to touching on.  More difficult for arriving foreigners, who may not yet have any local currency, but an extra level of complexity for anyone.
If I were to go overseas and use a railway I would expect to use whatever ticketing system that they have there. It should be no problem for anyone getting off a plane to purchase a ticket, and if they have really come into Australia without any currency (which is generally seen as suspicious), there are plenty of outlets at the airport to exchange.

You could just make sure that any myki sold at the Airport had to be loaded with at least the Access Fee and a Zone 1+2 Fare, not just the standard dollar that is required elsewhere. (If you have to buy a Myki off a Vline conductor because an unstaffed station's ticket machine is broken, you pay a flat $30, $6 for the card and $24 preloaded so there's enough to cover a Vline journey).

At the airports, unless you had the $15, the gates just wouldn't open whether you were entering or exiting. Having enough money for the rest of the fare is the responsibility of the passenger, or customer, as we're all now known.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Seems rather cumbersome.  What about travel FROM the airport?  A trip originating at the airport could potentially terminate at any other station, not just the City ones, therefore, to paraphrase -

"All you'd need is gates at the destination that do not let you through unless you have the correct balance on your Myki, [meaning  that] ..... you need $15 and your original fare to touch off."

Implying that the exit gates at all other stations would have to recognise that this trip originated at the airport, and react accordingly.  But it it's an unattended station that wouldn't mean much.

Alternatively, the extra charge would have to be paid at the airport, prior to touching on.  More difficult for arriving foreigners, who may not yet have any local currency, but an extra level of complexity for anyone.
If I were to go overseas and use a railway I would expect to use whatever ticketing system that they have there. It should be no problem for anyone getting off a plane to purchase a ticket, and if they have really come into Australia without any currency (which is generally seen as suspicious), there are plenty of outlets at the airport to exchange.

You could just make sure that any myki sold at the Airport had to be loaded with at least the Access Fee and a Zone 1+2 Fare, not just the standard dollar that is required elsewhere. (If you have to buy a Myki off a Vline conductor because an unstaffed station's ticket machine is broken, you pay a flat $30, $6 for the card and $24 preloaded so there's enough to cover a Vline journey).

At the airports, unless you had the $15, the gates just wouldn't open whether you were entering or exiting. Having enough money for the rest of the fare is the responsibility of the passenger, or customer, as we're all now known.

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