Questions on double stack/max. height

 
  matt24 Beginner

Location: Mainz, Germany
Hello from Germany!

Just a short introduction and background: My brother is currently working on his latest model railroad layout that will succeed his Beautiful South Africa layout. I offered to support him with prototype research and some rolling stock and after digging through tons of Youtube videos some questions came up.

  • In which states is it possible to double stack containers on intermodal cars (I only know about SA for sure)?
  • Are there states that allow double stacking on well cars but not on skeletal cars?
  • If you double stack containers on skeletal cars, is it possible to stack two regular height containers or has one to be less tall?
  • Has the smaller one a specific name? Especially asking about the ones seen in this video with both doors and curtain side.
  • What's the maximum height for cars? I saw triple stack car carrier cars that would be a real problem to the overhead contact line in Germany, not speaking of tunnels :)


  • That's it for now, thanks for all your help.

    Matt

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      M636C Minister for Railways

    Hello from Germany!

    Just a short introduction and background: My brother is currently working on his latest model railroad layout that will succeed his Beautiful South Africa layout. I offered to support him with prototype research and some rolling stock and after digging through tons of Youtube videos some questions came up.

  • In which states is it possible to double stack containers on intermodal cars (I only know about SA for sure)?
  • Are there states that allow double stacking on well cars but not on skeletal cars?
  • If you double stack containers on skeletal cars, is it possible to stack two regular height containers or has one to be less tall?
  • Has the smaller one a specific name? Especially asking about the ones seen in this video with both doors and curtain side.
  • What's the maximum height for cars? I saw triple stack car carrier cars that would be a real problem to the overhead contact line in Germany, not speaking of tunnels Smile


  • That's it for now, thanks for all your help.

    Matt
    matt24
    Firstly, welcome to the Forum.

    Double stacking is allowed on the main lines from Perth in Western Australia East to Adelaide in South Australia and as far as Parkes in New South Wales, and from Adelaide North to Darwin. So quite a large proportion of the country is covered. Double stacking does not occur on narrow gauge lines in South Australia or Western Australia.

    A new route from Melbourne to Brisbane via Parkes and Toowoomba is being constructed, and it is intended that this will allow double stacking of containers. This would mean the conversion of the line from Melbourne to Illabo (about half way to Sydney) and other lines on the route requiring upgrade.

    In Western Australia and South Australia, double stack trains do not travel under overhead catenary, even on dual gauge sections of line. It is expected that the same restrictions would be required in Victoria and Queensland on the new line.

    All double stack vehicles must meet a maximum height restriction. the only number I can find is a restriction at Port Augusta of 6.85 metres, which I think applies to the station platform road at Port Augusta station, which has less clearance under the Flinders Terrace Bridge than the main line). EDIT The limit Parkes - BH is 5900mm, which could run through PA station, and the remainder of the system can't be that different...

    In Australia,"normal" containers are either 3 metres (9 feet 10 inches) or 9 feet 6 inches high.

    As well as the well wagons, there are different heights of skeletal or flat wagons which face different restrictions in NSW and Victoria, and East of Adelaide in South Australia when single stacked.

    The RRYY and TRAY wagons had a particularly low deck,  and were intended to carry containers with motor vehicles in double stack areas. The upper containers could carry a normal sedan motor car, but were not full height.

    The upper containers on double stacked flat cars are often called "half height" containers, although they are not necessarily half the height of a standard container. Some are less than half the height of a normal container, some more.

    Some through trains are single stacked, particularly Perth to Sydney trains such as Pacific National trains PS 6 and PS 7 and the reverse SP 3 and SP 5 which are not normally loaded or unloaded en route (although I have seen a single double stack well set on PS 6 which was presumably removed or part unloaded in Parkes.)

    Peter
      YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

    Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
    My recollection, which may well have been superseded in recent years, was that 6.1 metres was the height limit between Adelaide and Perth.

    The RRYY and TRAY container flats were designed to convey specially built and especially high containers loaded with new motor vehicles. The cars were on two levels inside the single container. These wagons utilised every available inch of the rolling stock outline between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.
      gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

    Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
    Back when the standard gauge was opened between Broken Hill and Perth, one load of motor vehicles from the Chrysler plant in Adelaide almost went up a shower of sparks because there was very little gap between the top of the motor vehicles on the top deck and the contact wire of the Overhead.
    This was detected by the Train examiner in the Yard at Lithgow as the train was being examined and the engines were changed (Diesel to 46class).
    Everyone was amazed that the train had managed to travel the 1 & a 1/2 miles from the start of the Overhead at Bowenfels into the Top Yard and not cause an arc.
    There was no doubt however that should the Train have continued on into the 10 Tunnels with their minimum height, one at least of the motor vehicles would have touched the Overhead.

    The only other restriction I can see with 'double stacking' would be to ensure they are not top heavy in any way and there are no hard curves taken at speed to make them lean off balance.
      M636C Minister for Railways

    My recollection, which may well have been superseded in recent years, was that 6.1 metres was the height limit between Adelaide and Perth.

    The RRYY and TRAY container flats were designed to convey specially built and especially high containers loaded with new motor vehicles. The cars were on two levels inside the single container. These wagons utilised every available inch of the rolling stock outline between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.
    YM-Mundrabilla
    While 6.1 metres sounds a little low (carrying two 3 m containers stacked is obviously out) it may still apply. After searching the ARTC website, I realised that the TOC Manual for NSW covered the Parkes Broken Hill section where the limit is 5900 mm. Why the 200mm difference, I don't know.

    The TRAY and RRYY wagons are very similar, the main difference being the location of the air reservoirs (above the headstocks on the TRAY and attached to the frame on the RRYY), the TRAY wagons were built for TNT motor vehicle containers between Perth and Adelaide, while the RRYYs were built later for the North-South Toll services described by YM.

    The TRAYs carried stacked 53 feet containers lettered for TNT, the lower at least normal height (presumably for light trucks, 4WD vehicles and similar, while the upper could carry normal sedans and similar vehicles. These filled the full loading gauge up to 6 metres or so, and with matched containers gave an impression of a moving wall of containers..

    The double deck Toll containers had their corner castings at the very limit of the loading gauge in NSW, but had a shaped roof that extended up into the allowable profile nearer the centre. That would seem to rule out double stacking.These were also 53 feet long and looked very impressive. Toll later sold this business and I don't think this traffic is on rail now.

    The RRYYs are still used for 3 m high 48 feet containers, often Toll containers, and a 53 feet if one turns up but they don't give the impression of size they did with the double deck car containers.

    Peter
      Jajb94 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: In a BAM
    G'day
    The max Height of Goobang Junction (Just west of Parkes) to Perth is 6.5m High above rail, provided that the width of the load is 2.5m or less at the top.

    2.5m wide at 6.5m above rail and 5.9m above rail, then taper to 2.97m at 2.75 above rail
      Black Board Station Staff

    ARTC Route Standards

    This should be helpful in relation to loading gauge heights on the ARTC network.
      YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

    Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
    My recollection, which may well have been superseded in recent years, was that 6.1 metres was the height limit between Adelaide and Perth.

    The RRYY and TRAY container flats were designed to convey specially built and especially high containers loaded with new motor vehicles. The cars were on two levels inside the single container. These wagons utilised every available inch of the rolling stock outline between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.
    While 6.1 metres sounds a little low (carrying two 3 m containers stacked is obviously out) it may still apply. After searching the ARTC website, I realised that the TOC Manual for NSW covered the Parkes Broken Hill section where the limit is 5900 mm. Why the 200mm difference, I don't know.

    The TRAY and RRYY wagons are very similar, the main difference being the location of the air reservoirs (above the headstocks on the TRAY and attached to the frame on the RRYY), the TRAY wagons were built for TNT motor vehicle containers between Perth and Adelaide, while the RRYYs were built later for the North-South Toll services described by YM.

    The TRAYs carried stacked 53 feet containers lettered for TNT, the lower at least normal height (presumably for light trucks, 4WD vehicles and similar, while the upper could carry normal sedans and similar vehicles. These filled the full loading gauge up to 6 metres or so, and with matched containers gave an impression of a moving wall of containers..

    The double deck Toll containers had their corner castings at the very limit of the loading gauge in NSW, but had a shaped roof that extended up into the allowable profile nearer the centre. That would seem to rule out double stacking.These were also 53 feet long and looked very impressive. Toll later sold this business and I don't think this traffic is on rail now.

    The RRYYs are still used for 3 m high 48 feet containers, often Toll containers, and a 53 feet if one turns up but they don't give the impression of size they did with the double deck car containers.

    Peter
    M636C
    Thanks Peter.
      matt24 Beginner

    Location: Mainz, Germany
    Thanks for all the information, it is very much appreciated.

    Matt
      M636C Minister for Railways

    Thanks for all the information, it is very much appreciated.

    Matt
    matt24
    If I may ask a question back, how do you (or your brother) plan to model Australian Double Stack trains?

    I don't think there are any suitable wagons available in HO gauge at this time, and even less likely in other gauges.

    I think Southern Rail Models  have some five pack articulated well wagons being developed.

    Some American models might be able to be used, but only well wagons with 40 feet or 48 feet wells would be suitable and it would be necessary to match these against photos of Australian wagons. Because of axle load limits, very few double stack wagons in Australia are articulated, while most of those in the USA are articulated.

    Southern Rail Models are also producing single level articulated skeletal wagons.

    Peter
      matt24 Beginner

    Location: Mainz, Germany
    If I may ask a question back, how do you (or your brother) plan to model Australian Double Stack trains?
    M636C


    We are at a very early stage but that's the next issue I'm targeting Smile
    I asked about this in the model railroading section.

    I think Southern Rail Models have some five pack articulated well wagons being developed.
    M636C


    Couldn't find any well wagons except the SDS announcement so far, found only skeletal wagons on the Southern Rail webpage. So current plan is single stack using the Auscision skeletal wagons as these are already available.

    Matt
      Bulbous Assistant Commissioner

    PTA in WA currently have set a minimum height for structures over the SG of 7.2m (above TOR), to allow for either double stack containers or single deck electrified track.

    Cheers,

    Matt

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