Ferries for Melbourne?

 
Topic moved from Melbourne suburban by dthead on 01 Feb 2017 07:51
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

Yarra River speed limit 5 Knots (9.25 km/h) up stream of the Westgate Bridge and 10 Knots (18.5 km/h) down stream.

Parks Victoria won't budge on these speed limits because of the environmental damage of the boats swash on the river banks and harm to aquatic craters.

That is the most stupidest thing I have heard in at least 20 years.

I fully support protecting native Australia flora and fauna. National Parks protect flora and fauna as they were before westerners arrived. Governments need to maintain National Parks.

Now lets state the obvious, the Yarra is not a pristine example of Australian nature.
If you look at an early map of Melbourne from the 1800s, you can see the Yarra river actually took a more northern route, it was diverted to its current path sometime around 1900-1940.
So any "environmental damage" claim is stupid beyond belief.

To resolve "damage to river banks", build walls on the banks of the Yarra (as has been done next to Flinders St station / Southbank). The only google search results about "aquatic craters" appears to be a National Park in the USA. I don't have enough knowledge but "aquatic craters" sounds stupid to me.

This ridiculous approach to managing the Yarra River (down stream from CBD) is atrocious and blocks innovation.
tom9876543
Exactly! Where is the nature in the CBD?

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  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
That is the most stupidest thing I have heard in at least 20 years.

I fully support protecting native Australia flora and fauna. National Parks protect flora and fauna as they were before westerners arrived. Governments need to maintain National Parks.

Now lets state the obvious, the Yarra is not a pristine example of Australian nature.

If you look at an early map of Melbourne from the 1800s, you can see the Yarra river actually took a more northern route, it was diverted to its current path sometime around 1900-1940.

So any "environmental damage" claim is stupid beyond belief.

To resolve "damage to river banks", build walls on the banks of the Yarra (as has been done next to Flinders St station / Southbank). The only google search results about "aquatic craters" appears to be a National Park in the USA. I don't have enough knowledge but "aquatic craters" sounds stupid to me.

This ridiculous approach to managing the Yarra River (down stream from CBD) is atrocious and blocks innovation.
tom9876543


If the protection of flora and fauna was the reason for the speed limits, you might have a case.
However, what is being protected is the banks of the river, which are highly susceptible to erosion. There is already a good deal of rockwall in place, which serves to guard against erosion by natural causes like heavy rain. Erosion by high speed prop wash is a different kettle of fish altogether. You need to remember that the river is traversing basically flat country near the CBD, and there are no natural cliffs to help. If you want more substantial walls, we'd end up with a concrete-lined drain; no, thank you.
If you don't have enough knowledge about "aquatic craters" you are in no position to tell us that it sounds stupid.

Blocking innovation? No; there is nothing innovative about high speed craft at all; nor is there any demonstrable need for them.
Another factor which you need to consider is safety. There is a large amount of shipping in the downstream area. Ships and tugs definitely do not need high prop wash and speeding mobile obstacles when they're manoeuvring; nor do pleasure craft. We have a speed limit, so does Fremantle, so does the dock area of Sydney.

You should face that fact that some environments are not suited to doing what you want, and this is one of them.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Yarra River speed limit 5 Knots (9.25 km/h) up stream of the Westgate Bridge and 10 Knots (18.5 km/h) down stream.

Parks Victoria won't budge on these speed limits because of the environmental damage of the boats swash on the river banks and harm to aquatic craters.

That is the most stupidest thing I have heard in at least 20 years.

I fully support protecting native Australia flora and fauna. National Parks protect flora and fauna as they were before westerners arrived. Governments need to maintain National Parks.

Now lets state the obvious, the Yarra is not a pristine example of Australian nature.
If you look at an early map of Melbourne from the 1800s, you can see the Yarra river actually took a more northern route, it was diverted to its current path sometime around 1900-1940.
So any "environmental damage" claim is stupid beyond belief.

To resolve "damage to river banks", build walls on the banks of the Yarra (as has been done next to Flinders St station / Southbank). The only google search results about "aquatic craters" appears to be a National Park in the USA. I don't have enough knowledge but "aquatic craters" sounds stupid to me.

This ridiculous approach to managing the Yarra River (down stream from CBD) is atrocious and blocks innovation.
tom9876543
And the taxpayer should do all of this just so that Paul Little's unviable, impractical pet ferry should be able to scream up the Yarra to the detriment of all and sundry in an attempt to save 5 minutes on the running/sailing time from Williamstown to the CBD.
The next thing he will want is an XPT type window clear of all other shipping operations to Swanson and Appleton Docks and the Yarraville and Maribyrnong wharves.
To borrow a very current phrase, the whole ferry idea as it stands is 'a dumb idea'.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

That is the most stupidest thing I have heard in at least 20 years.

I fully support protecting native Australia flora and fauna. National Parks protect flora and fauna as they were before westerners arrived. Governments need to maintain National Parks.

Now lets state the obvious, the Yarra is not a pristine example of Australian nature.

If you look at an early map of Melbourne from the 1800s, you can see the Yarra river actually took a more northern route, it was diverted to its current path sometime around 1900-1940.

So any "environmental damage" claim is stupid beyond belief.

To resolve "damage to river banks", build walls on the banks of the Yarra (as has been done next to Flinders St station / Southbank). The only google search results about "aquatic craters" appears to be a National Park in the USA. I don't have enough knowledge but "aquatic craters" sounds stupid to me.

This ridiculous approach to managing the Yarra River (down stream from CBD) is atrocious and blocks innovation.
tom9876543


If the protection of flora and fauna was the reason for the speed limits, you might have a case.
However, what is being protected is the banks of the river, which are highly susceptible to erosion. There is already a good deal of rockwall in place, which serves to guard against erosion by natural causes like heavy rain. Erosion by high speed prop wash is a different kettle of fish altogether. You need to remember that the river is traversing basically flat country near the CBD, and there are no natural cliffs to help. If you want more substantial walls, we'd end up with a concrete-lined drain; no, thank you.
If you don't have enough knowledge about "aquatic craters" you are in no position to tell us that it sounds stupid.

Blocking innovation? No; there is nothing innovative about high speed craft at all; nor is there any demonstrable need for them.
Another factor which you need to consider is safety. There is a large amount of shipping in the downstream area. Ships and tugs definitely do not need high prop wash and speeding mobile obstacles when they're manoeuvring; nor do pleasure craft. We have a speed limit, so does Fremantle, so does the dock area of Sydney.

You should face that fact that some environments are not suited to doing what you want, and this is one of them.
"Valvegear"



I may at this time point out in the UK the narrow canal speed limit is 4 mph, this is in place to prevent as much as possible erosion of the canal banks and there is many many miles of operational narrow canals.

woodford..
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
I wonder what speed the 'RiverCat' ferries run once they enter the river section of the run to Parramatta?
I've not been on the boat but from advertising and other material I gather the Parramatta River is fairly narrow (30 metres ?) and not very deep as there have been times when the ferry cant run due to low water.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
No ferries should terminate at Docklands due to the low speed limits of the Yarra.

Could you please provide more information about why the Yarra has low speed limits?
I am sure with some careful planning the speed limit could be increased e.g. a special "lane" for ferries only.
tom9876543

South/West of the Bolte bridge is enclosed waters which has different speed limit requirements than upstream of the bolte bridge which is classed as inland waters.  5 knts within 100m of the edge of the waterway.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

I wonder what speed the 'RiverCat' ferries run once they enter the river section of the run to Parramatta?
I've not been on the boat but from advertising and other material I gather the Parramatta River is fairly narrow (30 metres ?) and not very deep as there have been times when the ferry cant run due to low water.
gordon_s1942
Go near the bottom of this page and it tells you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Ferries
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The speed limit upstream from Gladesville Bridge is listed as 7 knots. There is a good deal of published comment about the damage done to the Parramatta River banks by the Rivercats.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The very thing that makes Ferries a success in Sydney simply doesn't apply to Melbourne. Geographically Sydney is defined by the Sydney Harbour. Unfortunately, this is quite difficult to cross and cuts across the centre of the Greater Sydney area. Melbourne on the other hand is geographically defined by Port Phillip. Melbourne has been built around Port Phillip as opposed to Sydney which has been built on either side of the massive harbour. Melbournians have little reason to need to cut across the Bay as its suburbs have formed nicely around it. This is the reason Ferries work in Sydney and will not work in Melbourne.

Close and remove the Williamstown Rail line and replace it with a Williamstown Ferry
Somebody
I know this is a big call, but this may well be the stupidest idea I have read on these pages. Remove a successful railway line that has been in heavy use for the past 150 years, and replace it with a Ferry that may possibly work, but won't interface with any of the rest of the Public transport network of Melbourne. Yeah, I think not.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

A NEW PLAN!

Stage 1.
St Kilda Line
Stops at South Wharf DFO, MCEC, Crown, Southbank, Flinders Street, Alexandra Gardens, Birrarung Marr, Rod Laver Arena, AAMI Park and Goschs Paddock, Fishermans Bend, Station Pier, Albert Park, Middle Park and St Kilda.

Stage 2
Maribyrnong Line
Stops at South Wharf DFO, MCEC, Crown, Southbank, Flinders Street, Alexandra Gardens, Birrarung Marr, Rod Laver Arena, AAMI Park and Goschs Paddock, Footscray Rd, Dynon Rd, Smithfield Rd, Farnsworth Ave, Pipemakers Park, Raleigh Rd, Maribyrnong Park, Alberfeldie Park, Riverside Park and Lily Reserve.

Stage 3
Yarra Line
Stops at South Wharf DFO, MCEC, Crown, Southbank, Flinders Street, Alexandra Gardens, Birrarung Marr, Rod Laver Arena, AAMI Park and Goschs Paddock, Chapel Street, Como Park, MacRoberston Bridge, Swan Street, Bridge Rd, Victoria Bridge, Gipps St, Johnston St and reverse.

Stage 4
Peninsula Line
Stops at Frankston, Mount Eliza, Mornington, Mount Martha, Safety Beach, Dromana, McCray, Rosebud, Rosebud West, Tootgarook, Blairgowrie and Sorrento.

NB: All lines return to the start via ALL stops.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
A NEW PLAN! Stage 1. St Kilda Line
Mr Gus Meister
Route 96 trams serve this same exact catchment, and will do a better job than any Ferry ever will.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

That is the most stupidest thing I have heard in at least 20 years.

I fully support protecting native Australia flora and fauna. National Parks protect flora and fauna as they were before westerners arrived. Governments need to maintain National Parks.

Now lets state the obvious, the Yarra is not a pristine example of Australian nature.
If you look at an early map of Melbourne from the 1800s, you can see the Yarra river actually took a more northern route, it was diverted to its current path sometime around 1900-1940.
So any "environmental damage" claim is stupid beyond belief.

To resolve "damage to river banks", build walls on the banks of the Yarra (as has been done next to Flinders St station / Southbank). The only google search results about "aquatic craters" appears to be a National Park in the USA. I don't have enough knowledge but "aquatic craters" sounds stupid to me.

This ridiculous approach to managing the Yarra River (down stream from CBD) is atrocious and blocks innovation.
tom9876543
You go take up your fight over the river speed limit with Parks Victoria and Melbourne Port Corporation (Paul Little did, and got nowhere)

It's fair to say that none of the Yarra River down stream from the CBD Is In original condition, having major alteration done to It's course and banks to facilitate port development, but that's not to say the river Is devoid of aquatic life, the local ecosystem evolves to the changing river.

PS   Aquatic Creatures was the word I was after.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

A NEW PLAN! Stage 1. St Kilda Line
Route 96 trams serve this same exact catchment, and will do a better job than any Ferry ever will.
Gman_86
But they have many more stops. And the St Kilda line stops at places where there are only buses linking. I feel like this is the transport tree. The higher it is the more satisfaction when riding.
Ferry-Never overcrowded and has a view!
Train-overcrowded in peak
Tram-Sudden, frequent stops and overcrowded
Buses-Bumpy and overcrowded
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I am now encouraged to re-post something that I previously posted and almost immediately deleted.

I suggest that we replace the Port Melbourne and St Kilda tram lines with a proper railway that could run direct into Flinders Street Station thereby avoiding any further need/discussion of a ferry between those locations.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy

Ferry-Never overcrowded and has a view!
Train-overcrowded in peak
Tram-Sudden, frequent stops and overcrowded
Buses-Bumpy and overcrowded
Mr Gus Meister


How big is this ferry? Sydney ferries are crowded frequently.
And the view? What possible importance is a view when planning public transport? There's not much of a view in underground trains but they work well.
Public transport exists to move as many people as possible as efficiently as possible to places they want to go. Watch them on a train or tram - heads down over phones, books or the paper, or chatting to a companion. Nobody gives a stuff about the view or lack thereof.

Gus; you have dozens of reasons why your ferries idea is not practicable. It is just not suitable for Melbourne. Instead of persisting with it, why not go and ponder something useful like the meaning of life, or where flies go in the winter?
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller


Ferry-Never overcrowded and has a view!
Train-overcrowded in peak
Tram-Sudden, frequent stops and overcrowded
Buses-Bumpy and overcrowded


How big is this ferry? Sydney ferries are crowded frequently.
And the view? What possible importance is a view when planning public transport? There's not much of a view in underground trains but they work well.
Public transport exists to move as many people as possible as efficiently as possible to places they want to go. Watch them on a train or tram - heads down over phones, books or the paper, or chatting to a companion. Nobody gives a stuff about the view or lack thereof.

Gus; you have dozens of reasons why your ferries idea is not practicable. It is just not suitable for Melbourne. Instead of persisting with it, why not go and ponder something useful like the meaning of life, or where flies go in the winter?
Valvegear
Sydney ferries have a maximum capacity. I have been one one with maximum capacity from Circular Quay to Darling Harbour. It wasn't squishy. Views. They may attract tourists. Tourists go on the F1 Manly ferry for a view. Tourists give a stuff about the view. I look out the window. I find ferries fun.

Meaning of life:
1 The condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.

2 The existence of an individual human being or anima

What do flies do in winter?
Most spend the winter as adults in cracks and crannies and wake up in spring to lay their eggs on decaying matter. House flies delight in unhygienic places, and their maggots feed on rotting food and other human waste. ... One winter fly that often attracts attention is the cluster fly.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

I am now encouraged to re-post something that I previously posted and almost immediately deleted.

I suggest that we replace the Port Melbourne and St Kilda tram lines with a proper railway that could run direct into Flinders Street Station thereby avoiding any further need/discussion of a ferry between those locations.
YM-Mundrabilla
They used to have the St Kilda train. Now the tram runs where the train did. I don't know about Port Melbourne but I know they did have a proposal for a Fisherman's Bend line.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I am now encouraged to re-post something that I previously posted and almost immediately deleted.

I suggest that we replace the Port Melbourne and St Kilda tram lines with a proper railway that could run direct into Flinders Street Station thereby avoiding any further need/discussion of a ferry between those locations.
They used to have the St Kilda train. Now the tram runs where the train did. I don't know about Port Melbourne but I know they did have a proposal for a Fisherman's Bend line.
Mr Gus Meister
Same thing with Port Melbourne - that in fact was the first line ever built in Australia. The line even ran down the pier itself.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Tourists go on the F1 Manly ferry for a view. Tourists give a stuff about the view.
"Mr Gus Meister"
They do this because it's there. It's there because it is a commuter service. It was never put into service so that tourists could enjoy the view. We don't design public transport so that little Gus can look out the window; we design it so that little Gus can get to school.
I can't work out whether you are genuinely ignorant about the function of public transport, or whether you're just an agent provocateur.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

Tourists go on the F1 Manly ferry for a view. Tourists give a stuff about the view.
They do this because it's there. It's there because it is a commuter service. It was never put into service so that tourists could enjoy the view. We don't design public transport so that little Gus can look out the window; we design it so that little Gus can get to school.
I can't work out whether you are genuinely ignorant about the function of public transport, or whether you're just an agent provocateur.
Valvegear
Ok.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

Tourists go on the F1 Manly ferry for a view. Tourists give a stuff about the view.
They do this because it's there. It's there because it is a commuter service. It was never put into service so that tourists could enjoy the view. We don't design public transport so that little Gus can look out the window; we design it so that little Gus can get to school.
I can't work out whether you are genuinely ignorant about the function of public transport, or whether you're just an agent provocateur.
Ok.
Mr Gus Meister
Have a look at this and see where there are gaps in Melbourne's PT (Train, tram, some buses and ferries). http://www.railmaps.com.au/melbourn.png
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Have a look at this and see where there are gaps in Melbourne's PT (Train, tram, some buses and ferries).
"Mr Gus Meister"
No thanks. The thread is headed Ferries for Melbourne; the subject has been thoroughly canvassed, ferries have been shown to be no use on the Melbourne PT system, and I can't see any point in rabbiting on about it.
  tom9876543 Train Controller

No thanks. The thread is headed Ferries for Melbourne; the subject has been thoroughly canvassed, ferries have been shown to be no use on the Melbourne PT system, and I can't see any point in rabbiting on about it.
Valvegear

The only way ferries could have any chance of success, is if they can achieve an average speed of about 50km/h - 70km/h.
Apparently "erosion" makes it is impossible to raise the speed limit in the Yarra, so ferries will never be viable.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
No thanks. The thread is headed Ferries for Melbourne; the subject has been thoroughly canvassed, ferries have been shown to be no use on the Melbourne PT system, and I can't see any point in rabbiting on about it.

The only way ferries could have any chance of success, is if they can achieve an average speed of about 50km/h - 70km/h.
Apparently "erosion" makes it is impossible to raise the speed limit in the Yarra, so ferries will never be viable.
tom9876543
For ferries to achieve average speeds above 50 km/h, their fuel consumption would be excessive !  making them even less viable.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

I guess ferries are USELESS for Melbourne. Sad

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