Should we get an updated PTV network development plan?

 
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It was back in 2012-2013 when this report released and mentions vary amount of great projects for the public to see and the government to have a working plan for the rail network. But there are flaws in the plan. Eg Some projects should of happened in different timeframes, lack in mention of funding and some project left out (Dandenong quad and Cranbourne extension). There is some projects mentioned in Melbourne metro tunnel business case from this plan. Previous government did feasibilty studies were made on Rowville, Doncaster and Airport lines, but made no commitment to start any projects. Current government seems to want to invest into the rail network and thought can't just rely on a plan back in 2012-2013. This plan has potential to be a great plan for our rail network with abit of tweaks and public consultation.

Update:
(Infrastructure Victoria was a good step in the right direction, already Plan Melbourne updated and PTV plan is mentioned for a review as well, so we can only hope that they're doing it for PTV network development plan)

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  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
(Infrastructure Victoria was a good step in the right direction, but mentioned updating Plan Melbourne, so why can't do the same for the PTV network development plan)
James974
Does such a plan even exist?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

(Infrastructure Victoria was a good step in the right direction, but mentioned updating Plan Melbourne, so why can't do the same for the PTV network development plan)
Does such a plan even exist?
Valvegear
Which plan do you mean? Website links to each seperate plan as follows with vary amounts of infrastructure project in each.
Interesting to have a read.

PTV network development plan: https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/about-ptv/ptv-data-and-reports/network-development-plan-metropolitan-rail/
The Plan Melbourne website link is here; http://www.planmelbourne.vic.gov.au/Plan-Melbourne
Infrastructure Victoria: http://www.infrastructurevictoria.com.au
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
We're barely into Stage 2. So far the Sunshine-Dandenong Tunnel is about to start construction, Melton and Hurstbridge lines are being duplicated, The Bayside Rail project has upgraded across the Frankston and Werribee/Williamstown Lines. (There's also a few projects that have skipped some steps, such as the Mernda extension). In all though, there's 9-10 years until the Metro Tunnel is completed and so there's about 9-10 years before the completion of Stage 2.

While the plan should be a document that should receive updates, infrastructure planning is a long term process, hence the lack of inclusion of funding, there's not much point costing a project today that won't be built for 30 years when there are so many factors involved that can and will change the costs. It's far better for things to be costed and funded as they come up. I think updating the plan every 5 or 10 years should be enough, especially if the stages last for about that long. (Remember that while the plan was initially published in 2012, the former Government shelved it in favor of their version of the Metro Tunnel and the whole thing has been essentially delayed by 4-5 years, thanks politics).

I'd imagine that the Infrastructure Victoria Report as well as Infrastructure Victoria will have a significant influence on the Network Development Plan as it is developed.

Also remember, PTV is going to become a part of Transport for Victoria, so there may be some shake up in the planning when that happens.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

We're barely into Stage 2. So far the Sunshine-Dandenong Tunnel is about to start construction, Melton and Hurstbridge lines are being duplicated, The Bayside Rail project has upgraded across the Frankston and Werribee/Williamstown Lines. (There's also a few projects that have skipped some steps, such as the Mernda extension). In all though, there's 9-10 years until the Metro Tunnel is completed and so there's about 9-10 years before the completion of Stage 2.

While the plan should be a document that should receive updates, infrastructure planning is a long term process, hence the lack of inclusion of funding, there's not much point costing a project today that won't be built for 30 years when there are so many factors involved that can and will change the costs. It's far better for things to be costed and funded as they come up. I think updating the plan every 5 or 10 years should be enough, especially if the stages last for about that long. (Remember that while the plan was initially published in 2012, the former Government shelved it in favor of their version of the Metro Tunnel and the whole thing has been essentially delayed by 4-5 years, thanks politics).

I'd imagine that the Infrastructure Victoria Report as well as Infrastructure Victoria will have a significant influence on the Network Development Plan as it is developed.

Also remember, PTV is going to become a part of Transport for Victoria, so there may be some shake up in the planning when that happens.
TOQ-1
Thank you, that makes a lot of sense regarding how there's no need a refresh because only at the start of stage 2 of the plan. But there are some unanswered questions from Infrastructure Victoria with how they scrapped the need of Rowville and Doncaster rail, which was a major part of the PTV plan, but they did extend the tunnel metro 2 from fisherman's bend to Newport. Then Plan Melbourne is getting a refresh even though this 30 year plan only came in 2014. So maybe an update is needed if they going to not build the Rowville and Doncaster links.

Yes cost will change over time and therefore funding is irrelevant. Yes that I agree on, but what I meant is the plan needs to be achievable. Like in PTV stage 3, it said in 5 years can build metro 2, Doncaster, Rowville and Airport links. Im glad Infrastructure Victoria has happened and projects listed there pretty alright. Just wonder if the Rowville rail or Doncaster rail are worth it or not.

But I believe an update on the plan could happen soon as you said every 5 to 10 years should receive updates, this plan is almost 5 years old. The updates could add projects originally not included or able to move projects forward.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
We're barely into Stage 2. So far the Sunshine-Dandenong Tunnel is about to start construction, Melton and Hurstbridge lines are being duplicated, The Bayside Rail project has upgraded across the Frankston and Werribee/Williamstown Lines. (There's also a few projects that have skipped some steps, such as the Mernda extension). In all though, there's 9-10 years until the Metro Tunnel is completed and so there's about 9-10 years before the completion of Stage 2.

While the plan should be a document that should receive updates, infrastructure planning is a long term process, hence the lack of inclusion of funding, there's not much point costing a project today that won't be built for 30 years when there are so many factors involved that can and will change the costs. It's far better for things to be costed and funded as they come up. I think updating the plan every 5 or 10 years should be enough, especially if the stages last for about that long. (Remember that while the plan was initially published in 2012, the former Government shelved it in favor of their version of the Metro Tunnel and the whole thing has been essentially delayed by 4-5 years, thanks politics).

I'd imagine that the Infrastructure Victoria Report as well as Infrastructure Victoria will have a significant influence on the Network Development Plan as it is developed.

Also remember, PTV is going to become a part of Transport for Victoria, so there may be some shake up in the planning when that happens.
TOQ-1
@TOQ-1 There is every chance they could bring forward some of the projects from Stage 3 & 4 after the smaller projects from Stage 2 are completed like they did with the Mernda Rail project.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Instead of a development plan, I would like the PTC and Government people to Google "Sydney Trains", and look at the section headed "Trackwork".
There, planned up to six months in advance, is routine track maintenance, detailing exactly where and when the work will be happening, whether our not there will need to be bustitutions, plus any other necessary information.
If any of the PTC or Government people do take up my suggestion and look it up, we will need to have paramedics standing by as the Shiny Bums, one by one, keel over from shock.
"Routine Track Maintenance? Never heard of it. Must be something in the Sydney water that causes crazy ideas like that."
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Instead of a development plan, I would like the PTV and Government people to Google "Sydney Trains", and look at the section headed "Trackwork".
There, planned up to six months in advance, is routine track maintenance, detailing exactly where and when the work will be happening, whether our not there will need to be bustitutions, plus any other necessary information.
If any of the PTV or Government people do take up my suggestion and look it up, we will need to have paramedics standing by as the Shiny Bums, one by one, keel over from shock.
"Routine Track Maintenance? Never heard of it. Must be something in the Sydney water that causes crazy ideas like that."
Valvegear
If you check the metro trains website, it has a map with similar information about track works and disruptions ahead of time, Heres the link; http://www.metrotrains.com.au/planned-works/.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
If you check the metro trains website, it has a map with similar information about track works and disruptions ahead of time, Heres the link;
James974

I had checked it. The Metro page is absolutely outstanding for its complete lack of any decent, detailed information.
Your comment that it has a map, "with similar information" is so wide of the mark that it's not funny. Have a look at the Sydney page and you'll understand why I say this. There is no similarity at all; Sydney's info is fully detailed for the next six months; Metro has a little detail up to 1st March, i.e 17 days.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

If you check the metro trains website, it has a map with similar information about track works and disruptions ahead of time, Heres the link;

I had checked it. The Metro page is absolutely outstanding for its complete lack of any decent, detailed information.
Your comment that it has a map, "with similar information" is so wide of the mark that it's not funny. Have a look at the Sydney page and you'll understand why I say this. There is no similarity at all; Sydney's info is fully detailed for the next six months; Metro has a little detail up to 1st March, i.e 17 days.
Valvegear
I'm sorry thats the best Melbourne has to offer with that kind of information, It is completely lack of decent and detailed as Sydney Trains as done. I can see it is well thought out where disruptions are noted well ahead of time. Yes I agree it is nowhere near as similar to what Sydney Train got selecting from current to 6 months in advanced. Wow unbelievable what I saw on the front page (subscribe to our free track work to receive emails every week) yes definitely needs this kind of thing in Melbourne.
Seems like this is quite easy to implement, just the government can only fix it if they run the system, Metro trains is a private operator only for profit. They have done some sneaky stuff like ghost trains before where they run them with no passengers only to get as much money out of the system.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
A revision would be nice now and then.

The the Clyde Rail extension, it isn't on the network development plan but in the few years since that was made roughly 80,000 homes have been approved for construction in the area and some of those estates are coming online now, in fact the location of the planned Cranbourne East station in one of the urban growth plans has now been mostly built on, with a school being placed where carparking was going to be placed. There is still room but it isn't ideal as the road system surrounding the area has changed.

Casey is the 8th fasted growing area of Australia and the third in Victoria behind Wyndham and Whittlesea, which are getting/have gotten rail connections.

http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/building-planning/strategic-planning/growth-areas
http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/files/assets/public/building-planning/strategic-planning/urban-growth-boundary/growth-precincts-map.pdf
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
A revision would be nice now and then.

The the Clyde Rail extension, it isn't on the network development plan but in the few years since that was made roughly 80,000 homes have been approved for construction in the area and some of those estates are coming online now, in fact the location of the planned Cranbourne East station in one of the urban growth plans has now been mostly built on, with a school being placed where carparking was going to be placed. There is still room but it isn't ideal as the road system surrounding the area has changed.

Casey is the 8th fasted growing area of Australia and the third in Victoria behind Wyndham and Whittlesea, which are getting/have gotten rail connections.

http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/building-planning/strategic-planning/growth-areas
http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/files/assets/public/building-planning/strategic-planning/urban-growth-boundary/growth-precincts-map.pdf
drunkill
Personally I think that buses would suffice for that area until a new, faster double-deck (dare I say it) network can be developed. If we keep extending the current system we will have Metro trains running to Bendigo in 2050.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

A revision would be nice now and then.

The the Clyde Rail extension, it isn't on the network development plan but in the few years since that was made roughly 80,000 homes have been approved for construction in the area and some of those estates are coming online now, in fact the location of the planned Cranbourne East station in one of the urban growth plans has now been mostly built on, with a school being placed where carparking was going to be placed. There is still room but it isn't ideal as the road system surrounding the area has changed.

Casey is the 8th fasted growing area of Australia and the third in Victoria behind Wyndham and Whittlesea, which are getting/have gotten rail connections.

http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/building-planning/strategic-planning/growth-areas
http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/files/assets/public/building-planning/strategic-planning/urban-growth-boundary/growth-precincts-map.pdf
Personally I think that buses would suffice for that area until a new, faster double-deck (dare I say it) network can be developed. If we keep extending the current system we will have Metro trains running to Bendigo in 2050.
railblogger
Double decker trains are not happening in Melbourne despite them being very useful, it require a lot of Infrastructure changes to bridges and the Metro tunnel has no provision for this in mind. Only gonna be longer trains also Clyde Rail extension should happen soon, but need Quad btw Caulfeild and Dandenong and Duplicate Cranbourne in mind first. That require significant funding itself.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
A revision would be nice now and then.

The the Clyde Rail extension, it isn't on the network development plan but in the few years since that was made roughly 80,000 homes have been approved for construction in the area and some of those estates are coming online now, in fact the location of the planned Cranbourne East station in one of the urban growth plans has now been mostly built on, with a school being placed where carparking was going to be placed. There is still room but it isn't ideal as the road system surrounding the area has changed.

Casey is the 8th fasted growing area of Australia and the third in Victoria behind Wyndham and Whittlesea, which are getting/have gotten rail connections.

http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/building-planning/strategic-planning/growth-areas
http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/files/assets/public/building-planning/strategic-planning/urban-growth-boundary/growth-precincts-map.pdf
Personally I think that buses would suffice for that area until a new, faster double-deck (dare I say it) network can be developed. If we keep extending the current system we will have Metro trains running to Bendigo in 2050.
Double decker trains are not happening in Melbourne despite them being very useful, it require a lot of Infrastructure changes to bridges and the Metro tunnel has no provision for this in mind. Only gonna be longer trains also Clyde Rail extension should happen soon, but need Quad btw Caulfeild and Dandenong and Duplicate Cranbourne in mind first. That require significant funding itself.
James974
You haven't read my post.

I am referring to an entirely new network that uses none of the existing infrastructure in Melbourne.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
You haven't read my post.

I am referring to an entirely new network that uses none of the existing infrastructure in Melbourne.
railblogger
Well that's not going to happen in the next 75 or so years with most of the government expenditure for rail going into achieving the already existing Network Development Plan.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Please if possible discuss within the PTV network plan not beyond it. Projects such as Clyde rail extension should be included in the updated plan. I like the idea of quadding the dandenong line, but that would cost a few billion. Another idea was to Extend Alemein line to Chadstone shopping centre. Another idea was to Quad RRL. Also an idea was for Melbourne airport line could join up with sunbury line and have lines run the route. Any of you have good ideas.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Please if possible discuss within the PTV network plan not beyond it. Projects such as Clyde rail extension should be included in the updated plan. I like the idea of quadding the dandenong line, but that would cost a few billion. Another idea was to Extend Alemein line to Chadstone shopping centre. Another idea was to Quad RRL. Also an idea was for Melbourne airport line could join up with sunbury line and have lines run the route. Any of you have good ideas.
James974
Alamein line extension should continue to Oakleigh and Monash Uni to provide connectivity with the Pakenham/Cranbourne lines and to alleviate capacity issues on the 601 bus.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Please if possible discuss within the PTV network plan not beyond it. Projects such as Clyde rail extension should be included in the updated plan. I like the idea of quadding the dandenong line, but that would cost a few billion. Another idea was to Extend Alemein line to Chadstone shopping centre. Another idea was to Quad RRL. Also an idea was for Melbourne airport line could join up with sunbury line and have lines run the route. Any of you have good ideas.
Alamein line extension should continue to Oakleigh and Monash Uni to provide connectivity with the Pakenham/Cranbourne lines and to alleviate capacity issues on the 601 bus.
railblogger
And also potentially could go from Monash Uni to Rowville as well.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Hello everyone, I've made an interesting find, Infrastructure Victoria actually does mention a revamped PTV network development plan.

This is shown on page 125 on the document. This is actually kind of nesserary despite the lack of time that has passed. But many things have changed, e.g. Mernda Rail has changed priority in the plan, the Cranbourne extension isn't in that plan at all and you could say that stage 1 is completed and stage 2 of the plan is on it's way.

“Review and update Public Transport Victoria’s Network development plan – Metropolitan rail within 0-5 years to transparently identify and prioritise network upgrades and enhancements required to remove physical and operational constraints that will maximise the use of the existing rail network.” pg 125 - Infrastructure Victoria 30 year plan
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

I was going to suggest that eventually the airport would be served by a Metro service to somewhere near Donnybrook with quadded tracks so Seymour line trains could be diverted. Furthermore, the Bendigo line should be diverted via the airport with a set-down/pick up only option to avoid overcrowding.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I was going to suggest that eventually the airport would be served by a Metro service to somewhere near Donnybrook with quadded tracks so Seymour line trains could be diverted. Furthermore, the Bendigo line should be diverted via the airport with a set-down/pick up only option to avoid overcrowding.
reubstar6
I do support an Airport Line to allow Bendigo line using it in the longer term. In the shorter term the Upfield line could be reinstated to Somerton and allow Seymour trains run via there (according to PTV plan). Longer term will have the Wallan line electrified and may see Vline service run services via Airport. Regional service running separately are shown in the Rails Future report, I link it below.

The High speed rail study suggests that if an airport line was going to be built direct that provision could be made to allow HSR to run via the Airport. As quoted on page 237 "If the Melbourne Airport Rail Link project were to proceed, combining the rail link and HSR projects into the same corridor could be cost e cient, minimise social impacts through the use of one corridor, and o er a better planning solution for access to Melbourne CBD. e overall net benefit of developing the two projects together may be higher than developing the projects separately."

Rails Future's report
http://www.railfutures.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/160804-Regional-Rail-paper-v14.1.11-final-for-printing.pdf

Possible Routes to the airport:
https://www.danielbowen.com/2017/05/14/which-way-to-the-airport/

HSR report- The map and the possible routes show pages 234-238
https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/files/HSR_Phase_2-Main_Report_Low_Res.pdf
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

I suggest aby Airport Link will diverge to the North on the down side of Sunshine......
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
And also potentially could go from Monash Uni to Rowville as well.
"James974"

At those sort of costs, you may as well extend the Glen Waverley line and build a subway all the way to Rowville with an intermediate stop at Scoresby, and maybe Wheelers Hill (suburbia needs a rail station, even if it remains as quiet as Laburnum). But it seems that a subway is only allowed to be built in the city.
  Allstarbernie Beginner

There are several rail proposed projects on the north east line,  but how about consolidating some of them :

Re-route xpt Seymour Albury Bendigo etc services via melbourne airport and the rail reserves on the proposed outer metropolitan ring road.   This would free up track space on existing metro lines,  as well as connecting regional Victoria with melbourne airport transport hub.   You can still maintain the proposed metro melbourne airport to Dandenong services if required

Using the OMRR reserve would remove all interurban and interstate passenger services from the Craigieburn to broadmeadow section,  and given the number of new estates in the mickleham wollert Beveridge wallan catchment,   additional services are required in the next few years
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

There are several rail proposed projects on the north east line, but how about consolidating some of them : Re-route xpt Seymour Albury Bendigo etc services via melbourne airport and the rail reserves on the proposed outer metropolitan ring road. This would free up track space on existing metro lines, as well as connecting regional Victoria with melbourne airport transport hub. You can still maintain the proposed metro melbourne airport to Dandenong services if required Using the OMRR reserve would remove all interurban and interstate passenger services from the Craigieburn to broadmeadow section, and given the number of new estates in the mickleham wollert Beveridge wallan catchment, additional services are required in the next few years
Allstarbernie

Interesting idea. I quite like it actually. My only problem is the existing Standard Gauge (SG) line running through Albion. I guess by the time that's done their might be calls to do whatever's beyond Wallan in SG anyway so the broad gauge line could be converted to SG on the Albion line. That way freight could run via Albion and all passenger movements (including V/lines (SG) and XPTs, etc.) could run via the new airport link.

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