What is wrong with my loco?

 
  Garahbara Station Master

Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
Hope you can assist.  Much appreciated and many thanks in advance.

I'm getting a clunck cluck clunck clunck in sync with the speed of two of my Trainorama locos.  First happened to my  Trainorama VR S class (Blue and gold) and now it has happened to my Trainorama ANR 900 Class (maroon).

The great load it is under the worse it is.  The video has a load of 4 cars.  If I give the loco  a bit of assistance, it is no where near as bad.

See this video. (2 minutes).



https://youtu.be/52_-fexsPxY

I pulled the VR S Class right down to individual cogs and gears to try and fix it.  Couldn't find a thing wrong with it.  Broken cog or whatever.  Put the VR S Class back together and it still did it.

Before I go pulling the 900 class apart, has anyone any idea what might be causing this?

Much appreciated for any advice anyone may have.

Taa in advance,

Alan.

TOOT!

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  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Well known problem, there was a article in AMRM recently ( last 2 years) and has been talked about a lot. wheel gear split axles issues. It is a big issue for many and has seen a lot of discussion ! when I find the thread I'll add it in to this post later.

Trainorama sell replacement wheel sets for about $20 (I think)

Regards,
David Head


Update:

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11369209.htm
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1988220.htm#1988220
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1951011.htm#1951011
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1884292.htm#1884292
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1822307.htm#1822307
  Garahbara Station Master

Location: Northern Rivers, NSW

Trainorama sell replacement wheel sets for about $20 (I think)

Regards,
David Head
dthead


By "Trainorama sell replacements", does this mean Bob's Hobbies in Sydney? If I give them a call, will they know what I'm on about?
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

By "Trainorama sell replacements", does this mean Bob's Hobbies in Sydney? If I give them a call, will they know what I'm on about?
Garahbara
Yes, and I am quite sure they will know. It will be up to you to work out how to replace the wheelsets, apparently it's not easy.

David
  Garahbara Station Master

Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
When you say "wheelset" I assume you mean this?



That is out of the Trainorama S Class that does clunck clunck clunck.

Do I replace ALL 6 wheelsets?  (3 in each bogie) How do I tell the busted ones?  Those forum threads/posts mention the axle "splits" but I can't work out which bit is meant to have "split", or what is meant by "split".  Is it the plastic bit the has the cog on it?  The steel axles (one on each wheel) slot inside the "sleeve" of the plastic "cog" bit.  The wheels axles inside the sleeve are a bit.... um.... lose.

Am I on track, or way way way off somewhere down a deadend branchline?
  Garahbara Station Master

Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
Ahhhhhhh.... yes.  Get out the really good super dooper magnifying glass, and yes.  There is a spilt from end to end on the plastic "sleeve/collar" with the cog on it.

Hmmmmm..... I've got an old Austrains 80 class that had a collision with the concrete floor.  hmmmmmm...... wheelsets look similar.  Now..... how do I get inside them bogies on the 80 Class? Shocked
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Okay...here we go.

The black plastic bit that holds the axle set together is called a "muff".

The muffs were made at the factory, apparently, by using "plastic" (it's not just plastic....it is a particular type of plastic) that had already been used in some other application. Apparently, each time this type of "plastic" is melted and re-moulded into some other shape, it loses some of its efficacy...so ends up not being as good at doing its job as it should be. This isn't such an issue IF the new use is something that is not required to perform a mechanical duty, but is just an ornament. Obviously the muff IS required to do a VERY IMPORTANT physical task.....and it fails.

You have the choice of buying complete new wheelsets from Bobs Hobbies, or you can buy new muffs: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/REPLACEMENT-FOR-CRACKED-GEAR-suit-Trainorama-Austrains-2-SETS-BULK-PACK-/172500175529?hash=item2829cfcaa9:g:8zYAAOSwal5YL6NN which are $22- for twleve axles (enough to re-build two locos).

You asked whether all wheel sets need to be replaced..... In my opinion, given the relative difficulty of dismantling the bogie, you would be wise to replace all muffs in each bogie. That is what I've been doing...and I have a fair few Traino locos that have suffered from this issue. I have a reserve supply of both the Bob's Hobbies AND the white muff options. I haven't used any of the white ones yet; they only arrived during this week.

Roachie
  Garahbara Station Master

Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
Okay...here we go......................................................


Roachie
Roachie
Breeyant, Roachie.  Taa for that. Cool

The wheelsets out of my old Austrains 80 class that had a fall from grace fit perfectly in the Trainorama S Class.  The "muff"  (see, I can speak the lingo now) on the 80 Class wheelsets is much thicker, but the same number of sprockets on the cog, and same cog diameter. (and a bit wider).

Having a closer look at  all the wheelsets in the S Class, the "muff" has split on all of them in at least one bogie.  One from end to end, the others, as far as the cog.

Have put the 80 Class wheelsets in the S Class (just one bogie so far) and runs just like a bought one (well the repaired bogie anyway).  Still cluncks from the un-repaired bogie.  

If I buy new muffs, I'll need to re-gauge the wheelsets. Crying or Very sad

Anyway, I'll do some overtime tonight and do the other S Class bogie, then I'll have to think about the 900 Class.  Oh....... and I just bought a new Trainorama GM Class (maroon) two weeks ago.  Think it is their "first run".  UH OH..... methinks. Sad

Now I know what's wrong, makes it easier to fix.

Thanks guys for all your help.

Much appreciated.



TOOT!
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
What Roachie says is the way to go though replacing all the muffs at the one time saves having to open it again later when the one or two that were good were not replaced to start with. It also makes it easier to remember when the muff's were changed over as well. The bogies are not the easiest things to open up.

Those that are still good well look it anyway could be held as spares as long as they do not crack in storage. One thing Roachie did not mention though is that these muff's can crack even if simply stored away in the box the loco came in. They are not quality made though the originals. Not good to see in a high priced model though but of late nearly all manufacturers have had things that should not happen, happen to models. Just a consequence of getting them made in China though, not much you can do about either other than simply replace them.
  Garahbara Station Master

Location: Northern Rivers, NSW


Those that are still good well look it anyway could be held as spares as long as they do not crack in storage. One thing Roachie did not mention though is that these muff's can crack even if simply stored away in the box the loco came in.
David Peters

Can crack in storage?  So I've found out now.  Hadn't run my Trainorama 900 Class for 12 months or so.  Was sure it worked fine last time I ran it.  The S Class started clunking 12 months ago, so I pulled it apart back then right down to the cog..........  Nup.  Couldn't find a thing, but now I know I'd have needed a magnifying glass. The S Class had sat in the cupboard for 12 months of so, giving up on it as a lost cause, until I got the 900 class out, and it clunked too.

So..... what's gunna happen with my brand new Trainorama GM Class.  It'll have been sitting in storage, since the first release arrived at the shop.  Haven't run it yet, as I haven't put a decoder in it, to see if it clunks too. Rolling Eyes
  Zuggy Beginner

Thanks for re-energizing this thread because 1 of my 2 44's now has the problem and I'm guessing the other won't be too far behind. I've had a go at trying to dismantle the bogie but I did not succeed as I thought I was about to shatter the plastic bogie cover.

So I would be very grateful if someone could give a clue, or point me to some instruction/guide on how to take these bogies apart.  

Thanks
Phillip
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
Traino replacement wheelsets are $7.00 each.

Wayne

Traino wheelsets are $7 each.

Wayne

https://www.bobshobbies.com.au/TrainOrama-44-Class-Replacement-Wheels-TRRW?search=replacement%2044%20class%20wheels
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
As I said (above), I've been using the replacement complete wheel sets from Trainorama/Bob's Hobbies and haven't had any issues with the replacements (so far).

A week or so ago, however, I decided to order 2 packs of the ones on ebay, which are only the muff.

Today I noticed one of my 47 class Trainorama locos was clicking; front bogie. Damn!! That's the first time a 47 has done this.

I figured I'd give the new version a crack (no pun intended!!!), so removed the bogie base (NB: unlike the 44 class, which has the side frames and cover plate all as one piece, the 47 has the narrow base plate as a separate piece to the sideframes....which ARE one piece).

I had already prepared some axles with the new, wider gear muff on to some older axles from various 44 class locos I'd already fixed. They fitted into the 47 class bogie perfectly...BUT...Houston: we have a problem!!!

The cover plate for these locos has 3 elliptical raised portion designed to allow for the height of the gear/muff. In the case of the 47 class (at least) these raised indents (or "valleys" if you prefer) are not wide enough to allow the cover plate to be clipped back onto the bogie. IE: the muff, having a full-width gear cog, unlike the Trainorama type, is too wide for the cover plate.

Just something you should know before ordering a heap of these ones off ebay. They are likely to be quite okay for the 44 class and probably any other locos that have a one piece cover plate/bogie side frame casting (such as the 42 class). However, I have not done any checks or attempted to fitted the ebay ones to any other loco/s.

Roachie
  Oscar Train Controller

Interesting to know Roachie. I think that's the first time I've read of a 47 suffering the same fate. When the issue first arose on the forum a few years back my sole 47 developed a click. All my other TrainOs were fine but everything is shelved and will be indefinitely with nowhere to run. I'll keep your post in mind when the time comes to open the bogies because I've been eyeing off those eBay ones for a while.
  a6et Minister for Railways

As I said (above), I've been using the replacement complete wheel sets from Trainorama/Bob's Hobbies and haven't had any issues with the replacements (so far).

A week or so ago, however, I decided to order 2 packs of the ones on ebay, which are only the muff.

Today I noticed one of my 47 class Trainorama locos was clicking; front bogie. Damn!! That's the first time a 47 has done this.

I figured I'd give the new version a crack (no pun intended!!!), so removed the bogie base (NB: unlike the 44 class, which has the side frames and cover plate all as one piece, the 47 has the narrow base plate as a separate piece to the sideframes....which ARE one piece).

I had already prepared some axles with the new, wider gear muff on to some older axles from various 44 class locos I'd already fixed. They fitted into the 47 class bogie perfectly...BUT...Houston: we have a problem!!!

The cover plate for these locos has 3 elliptical raised portion designed to allow for the height of the gear/muff. In the case of the 47 class (at least) these raised indents (or "valleys" if you prefer) are not wide enough to allow the cover plate to be clipped back onto the bogie. IE: the muff, having a full-width gear cog, unlike the Trainorama type, is too wide for the cover plate.

Just something you should know before ordering a heap of these ones off ebay. They are likely to be quite okay for the 44 class and probably any other locos that have a one piece cover plate/bogie side frame casting (such as the 42 class). However, I have not done any checks or attempted to fitted the ebay ones to any other loco/s.

Roachie
Roachie
Bill, the replacement wheels are not manufactured at the old factory aka San Da Kan. My understanding is SDK no longer produces anything for anyone.

The replacement wheelsets are made at TOR's new China factory which also produces models for the European market namely Heljan, the wheel sets have been redesigned by this factory which I have not heard that any Heljan model has suffered these problems.
  Captain Underpants Train Controller

Okay...here we go.

The black plastic bit that holds the axle set together is called a "muff".

The muffs were made at the factory, apparently, by using "plastic" (it's not just plastic....it is a particular type of plastic) that had already been used in some other application. Apparently, each time this type of "plastic" is melted and re-moulded into some other shape, it loses some of its efficacy...so ends up not being as good at doing its job as it should be. This isn't such an issue IF the new use is something that is not required to perform a mechanical duty, but is just an ornament. Obviously the muff IS required to do a VERY IMPORTANT physical task.....and it fails.

You have the choice of buying complete new wheelsets from Bobs Hobbies, or you can buy new muffs: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/REPLACEMENT-FOR-CRACKED-GEAR-suit-Trainorama-Austrains-2-SETS-BULK-PACK-/172500175529?hash=item2829cfcaa9:g:8zYAAOSwal5YL6NN which are $22- for twleve axles (enough to re-build two locos).

You asked whether all wheel sets need to be replaced..... In my opinion, given the relative difficulty of dismantling the bogie, you would be wise to replace all muffs in each bogie. That is what I've been doing...and I have a fair few Traino locos that have suffered from this issue. I have a reserve supply of both the Bob's Hobbies AND the white muff options. I haven't used any of the white ones yet; they only arrived during this week.

Roachie





Bill,

I'm a little concened with those muffs on eBay.
Looking at the photo they look very wide and appear to just fit meaning there is no left-to-right movement in the wheel set.
The loco will run fine on a straight track but around curves, especially tight curves the restricted movement might cause problems.

Let us know how they go.

Cheers

Captain U
Roachie
  Booly Junior Train Controller

Captain U , your suspicions with the Ebay gears being too wide are correct . I purchased a set , fitted them (which we all know is a prick of a job !) and set the back to back , ran beautiful on the straights but when it came to curves it derailed (32 inch radius).They don't allow for sideways movement. So back to the repair bench for this one .
  Captain Underpants Train Controller

Captain U , your suspicions with the Ebay gears being too wide are correct . I purchased a set , fitted them (which we all know is a prick of a job !) and set the back to back , ran beautiful on the straights but when it came to curves it derailed (32 inch radius).They don't allow for sideways movement. So back to the repair bench for this one .
Booly
Thanks Booly,

I knew it! Glad I didn't get them

Disappointing someone cashing in on a fix to this problem and failing to test them properly before selling them.
  Garahbara Station Master

Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
Well.... went and done it, didn't. I.  Got a dozen wheelsets from Bob's Hobbies.

My Trainorama VR S Class and SAR 900 Class (Maroon).

The VR S Class, the bogie sideframes are separate (one piece) and come off with a bit of screwdriver leverage.  The bogie plates took a bot more leverage, but once lifted off one end, (lever the end out, then up) just run a screwdriver longitudinally between the plate and bogie.  They come of with a couple of "snaps".  I did split the bogie plate a little on one of them, but it just clipped back on.

Now the 900 (44) Class.  Hooley dooley!Mad  Talk about gritted teeth!  (Mine, not the sprockets!)  I reckon it took me an hour to get the first one off.  Leverage here, leverage there............... twist.... nup... that'll break it.  Try again................

The bogie frames and plate are one piece.  Quite a bit more force than the S Class, using similar technique as the above, and they came off.  All I managed to break was one of the cross bars at the end of the bogie frame.  I did take the body and couplers off first, making it easier to do the initial leverage to lift the bogie frame at the end.

Just waiting for some glue to dry, and I'll give it a test run. PS.  DON"T FORGET THE STAFF EXCHANGERS, SPECIALLY THE FRONT END ONE.... Broke the front light mouldings off the chassis, and a rear driver off his mounts.  Mostly, so far, I'd call it a 8 out of 10 success.  OH.... and broke the driver steps off the front bogie as well.

Hope this helps.

Alan.


TOOT!
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
Interesting to know Roachie. I think that's the first time I've read of a 47 suffering the same fate. When the issue first arose on the forum a few years back my sole 47 developed a click. All my other TrainOs were fine but everything is shelved and will be indefinitely with nowhere to run. I'll keep your post in mind when the time comes to open the bogies because I've been eyeing off those eBay ones for a while.
Oscar
Oscar and others,

I have known for a while (and made numerous posts) that all aussie locos sourced from the same factory as the ToR 44's are susceptible to the splitting gear muff problem.  Sometimes is is not too bad and many owners do not notice the problem.  

It is obvious if you invert the loco and apply power as when cleaning wheels.  This is when I first noted the extent of the problem.  Applying a wire brush to clean the wheels I noted that many wheels stopped turning when a small amount of pressure was applied.  When the wheels stopped turning also present was a clicking noise.

This has been observed with all of the ToR locos (except my 42's and S class so far).  In fact I have observed this malady with many US locos too!!

Another problem with the afflicted locos is that the half wheelsets are not held in gauge and can wander causing the back to back dimensions to vary.  This leads to frequent derailments on pointwork or at rail joints.

Unfortunately ToR and Bob's Hobbies only offer the replacement gear complete with a wheel set.  A bit expensive at $42 per loco, especially when the problem is not the wheelset, but the gear component only.  I have around 25 locos likely to be afflicted with this problem.  Total cost about $1,000. Ouch!

Thankyou to those who have offered advice on the eBay sourced option.  I wondered how they would perform, but am now a bit more sceptical that they are a good solution.

Eureka have/are going to offer a solution too.  http://eurekamodels.blogspot.com.au/   See the post of 09/08/16 for details.

I will await their replacement detail/price before I make a big purchase.  Meanwhile most of my affected locos sit in their boxes awaiting their turn in the workshop.

Happy running,

John
  Speedbird Train Controller

I'm now wondering if this is what's causing this on my new Vlocity?



https://youtu.be/8o6EQvRQkAI
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Captain U , your suspicions with the Ebay gears being too wide are correct . I purchased a set , fitted them (which we all know is a prick of a job !) and set the back to back , ran beautiful on the straights but when it came to curves it derailed (32 inch radius).They don't allow for sideways movement. So back to the repair bench for this one .
Thanks Booly,

I knew it! Glad I didn't get them

Disappointing someone cashing in on a fix to this problem and failing to test them properly before selling them.
Captain Underpants
Well I have used the them on curves without any trouble. You need to make sure the new gear is centered accurately on the axles. Then again, Booly probably could have fixed the kink in his 813mm radius curve.

Cheers,

Terry Flynn.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Then again, Booly probably could have fixed the kink in his 813mm radius curve.

Cheers,

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855



Terry, You state there is a kink in his track, how do you know ? Or are you having a go at him .......

Regards,
David Head
  Booly Junior Train Controller

Terry , the Ebay gears are 5.06 mm wide and the housing is 5.12 mm wide , so there is only .06mm of side ways movement. So it doesn't matter what radius curves you have it will derail . And by the way considering you have never seen my layout it is a pretty wild asumption that my curves have kinks where the derailments occur . So instead of having a go at me and others on here ( which you seem to do reading your other posts ) how about replying with helpful posts ! . After all that is all i was replying to when asked about the Ebay gears.
Booly
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Terry , the Ebay gears are 5.06 mm wide and the housing is 5.12 mm wide , so there is only .06mm of side ways movement. So it doesn't matter what radius curves you have it will derail . And by the way considering you have never seen my layout it is a pretty wild asumption that my curves have kinks where the derailments occur . So instead of having a go at me and others on here ( which you seem to do reading your other posts ) how about replying with helpful posts ! . After all that is all i was replying to when asked about the Ebay gears.
Booly
Booly
Strange, my 44 with the wide gears gets round my 920mm radius curves, no derailment. It also gets around my friends layout with 762mm radius curves again no derailment. I also have done the sums and 0.06mm is just enough end play to get around 600mm radius with 16.5mm track gauge. I can think of 4 possible reasons why your model did not like going around your curves.

1 Gears not centered
2. Kink in your track
3. Wheels over gauge
4. Track under gauge

Which one caused your derailment?

Cheers,
Terry Flynn.

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