Federal body says no to funds for Maldon Dombarton

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 01 Mar 2017 10:26
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
“It’s extremely frustrating that we have both a state and federal government who seem oblivious to the transport issues in our region and the importance of the Maldon-Dombarton as a key piece of infrastructure not only to resolving congestion issues but to opening our region for more job creating opportunities,” Ms Bird said.
Somebody


I dont dispute they believe they need the line but what is the justification?

Federal body says no to funds for Maldon Dombarton

Sponsored advertisement

  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

“It’s extremely frustrating that we have both a state and federal government who seem oblivious to the transport issues in our region and the importance of the Maldon-Dombarton as a key piece of infrastructure not only to resolving congestion issues but to opening our region for more job creating opportunities,” Ms Bird said.


I dont dispute they believe they need the line but what is the justification?

Federal body says no to funds for Maldon Dombarton
bevans
Sensible. This could only ever be justified by lots of western coal heading for Inner Harbour. Most of it now heads for Newcastle.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
How much would it cost to complete the M-D link?

There is a long tunnel, IIRC about 4km long. What is the gradient in this tunnel? If diesels are to be used, a small gradient should be planned, say 1 in 400 to suit drainage. Thus diesels will not have to be powering heavily through the tunnel causing fumes. The junction to this tunnel can be move up or down the 1 in 30 of the U-MV line to make the tunnel gradient 1 in 400.

It is noted that Stephens (of Panama Canal fame) who designed and built the first Cascade tunnel made the gradient too steep, and there where fume problem from day one. Eddy (of NSWR fame) also made the first Stanwell Park too steep at the 1 in 40 ruling gradient, and it was also a "Rathole Tunnel".

For possible rathole tunnel at Rhyndston in TAS, see https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p492175.htm#492175

In WA, the Swan View tunnel at the ruling grade was a rathole tunnel, leading to some fatality(s).
  62440 Chief Commissioner

I remember a site visit by private train, we stopped at the tunnel mouth before running through the odd passing loop. Overhead masts appeared soon after to the tunnel mouth. There was a presentation on the line construction and work had started. Much of the non-tunnel was well advanced. The grade through the tunnel was the ruling grade, pretty steep but the intention was to use electric locos. Calculations on diesels showed you couldn't triple head as the third loco would have no air. Steam locos would only be allowed downhill.
The visit was in 1983 and there was a presentation at the PWI Convention NSW
The need for the line has diminished in the intervening years, any funds were better spent on straightening out the main line.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
It might be useful to read the IA assessment to get more detail.

http://infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/projects/files/Maldon-to-Dombarton-summary.pdf

Key items here are that:

1. The BCR is less than 1, so not generating net economic benefits
2. Coal traffic might be overstated given that mines in the area are probably going to close within 20 years instead of produce for the next 50
3. Changes to the Sydney metro network (e.g. metro to Hurstville) are not announced/committed (and are probably the opposite to be honest) and so further reduce the justification for the line.

Plus, NSW was asking the Federal government for all of the funding, and modelling shows that financial revenues (i.e. access charges) won't be enough to recover total costs.  Again, the project has lots of economic benefits that are not monetised through its use.  These include freight user benefits (approx $377m) which could be argued are somewhat of a subsidy to rail users.

My advice to the relevant people in the area - go back to the drawing board and see what else could be more economically positive for rail in the region.  How about taking that request almost $1bn and turn it into another request, this time asking for improvements to the current Illawarra line to improve passenger times?  $1bn might get you substantially greater benefits if invested in different ways.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney

There is a long tunnel, about 4km long. What is the gradient in this tunnel?
awsgc24
Are the heights above sea level available online anywhere. Old country public timetables tabulated distances from Sydney, and heights above sea levels for all passenger stations, but are any of these available on line?

The following website tabulates much information about NSW railways, but heights above sea level do not appear to be included.

See: http://www.nswrail.net/lines/nsw-lines.php
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
There is a long tunnel, IIRC about 4km long. What is the gradient in this tunnel?
awsgc24
1 in 30. Or would be, if ever completed to the original plans. Only a short length was driven into the hillside.

Btw, I think the Swan View tunnel was made just because they wanted a tunnel on the system. "Complete the set," so to speak, real railways have tunnels. It's now a pleasant walk in John Forrest National Park, near Perth. There's no great overburden, and it's not very long. The deviation that replaced the tunnel makes more sense. So you have to wonder why they didn't just do it like that in the first place.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
There is a long tunnel, IIRC about 4km long. What is the gradient in this tunnel?
1 in 30. Or would be, if ever completed to the original plans. Only a short length was driven into the hillside.
apw5910

If the junction is moved towards Moss Vale, then the elevation of the junction rises 33m for every 1000m along the line, and this reduces the gradient in the proposed tunnel. The tunnel would probably be longer; hard to say without a plan. The aim is to reduce the gradient in the proposed tunnel to reduce the diesel diesel problem.

A 4km tunnel at 1 in 30 has a 133m difference in level between to two ends.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
There is a long tunnel, IIRC about 4km long. What is the gradient in this tunnel?
1 in 30. Or would be, if ever completed to the original plans. Only a short length was driven into the hillside.

If the junction is moved towards Moss Vale, then the elevation of the junction rises 33m for every 1000m along the line, and this reduces the gradient in the proposed tunnel. The tunnel would probably be longer; hard to say without a plan. The aim is to reduce the gradient in the proposed tunnel to reduce the diesel diesel problem.

A 4km tunnel at 1 in 30 has a 133m difference in level between to two ends.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Even if IA recommended this project as a priority I doubt it would happen.

Federal funding of freight rail projects has fallen to its lowest in a decade and is hardly on the radar now. By contrast the feds love to plow money into platinum plated urban road projects like Westconnex regardless.

"In a report highly critical of the federal government's funding of the $16.8 billion motorway, Commonwealth Auditor-General Grant Hehir also found that upfront payments and altering milestones for later support "did not adequately protect the Australian government's financial interests".

...the Audit Office's report noted that both the Coalition and federal Labor made commitments to funding WestConnex before the business case for the project was finalised in NSW in 2013.

And it said the decisions by both major parties to provide support at the early stages of the project were "inconsistent with the advice" from both Infrastructure Australia and the Department of Infrastructure"

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/audit-office-highly-critical-of-government-funding-for-westconnex-20170213-guc9dr.html

Imagine them funding a rail project to the tune of $1.2m... a metre! Surprised
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

“It’s extremely frustrating that we have both a state and federal government who seem oblivious to the transport issues in our region and the importance of the Maldon-Dombarton as a key piece of infrastructure not only to resolving congestion issues but to opening our region for more job creating opportunities,” Ms Bird said.


I dont dispute they believe they need the line but what is the justification?

Federal body says no to funds for Maldon Dombarton
bevans

The fact that it is half built already is the justification. The fact it can remove freight from the south coast line and connect into the ssfl. It would allow passenger services from Campbelltown to Wollongong for the significant amount of people from the South western area of Sydney who travel to Wollongong for university and work everyday.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I can understand maldon to dombarton not being on IA's priority list, but it should definitely be on INSW's priority list.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

“It’s extremely frustrating that we have both a state and federal government who seem oblivious to the transport issues in our region and the importance of the Maldon-Dombarton as a key piece of infrastructure not only to resolving congestion issues but to opening our region for more job creating opportunities,” Ms Bird said.


I dont dispute they believe they need the line but what is the justification?

Federal body says no to funds for Maldon Dombarton

The fact that it is half built already is the justification. The fact it can remove freight from the south coast line and connect into the ssfl. It would allow passenger services from Campbelltown to Wollongong for the significant amount of people from the South western area of Sydney who travel to Wollongong for university and work everyday.
simstrain
It is not half built. It is around 5 percent built and half of that would need to be re-done due to time and changed engineering standards. There is plenty of spare capacity on the south coast line and how many people are on those Campbelltown-Wollongong buses? Straightening the main south anyone?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

This project shouldn't come at the expense of the main south. But the buses and the roads from campbelltown to wollongong are extremely busy. The University of Wollongong has courses in nursing and students from Campbelltown and Liverpool have to make the journey down there. Lots of kids from this south western area of Sydney also go to beaches and places like jamberoo park and so it is a very common journey. Nobody is taking a 4 hour train journey via the south coast line and therefore the bus service is extremely popular.

The land is there and even the new housing development at wilton has left space for the train to go through. So finish it up and get it working asap.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
This project shouldn't come at the expense of the main south. But the buses and the roads from campbelltown to wollongong are extremely busy. The University of Wollongong has courses in nursing and students from Campbelltown and Liverpool have to make the journey down there. Lots of kids from this south western area of Sydney also go to beaches and places like jamberoo park and so it is a very common journey. Nobody is taking a 4 hour train journey via the south coast line and therefore the bus service is extremely popular.

The land is there and even the new housing development at wilton has left space for the train to go through. So finish it up and get it working asap.
simstrain

The Infra Australia assessment seems to suggest it was only ever considered as a freight connector, not a passenger line.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Straightening the main south anyone?
"fzr560"
Definitely ! . . . a far more important priority.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Thousands and thousands of concession holders will be shatttered. Does anyone have any real figures on public transport usage between macarthur and Illawarra regions? Lots is a little vague for me. Then again I dont own a money tree.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Straightening the main south anyone?
Definitely ! . . . a far more important priority.
Valvegear

How so. Inland rail will make the main south pointless and a multi purpose rail line between south western Sydney and Illawarra has way more potential then the main south for getting trucks off roads.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Straightening the main south anyone?
Definitely ! . . . a far more important priority.

How so. Inland rail will make the main south pointless and a multi purpose rail line between south western Sydney and Illawarra has way more potential then the main south for getting trucks off roads.
simstrain
Pointless? Again, your point of view would carry more weight if you'd provide some figures. I apologise to those that I'm boring but the main south will continue to be the main route between the 2 largest cities in the country. It is also carries considerable amounts of grain, quarry products and garbage, just for starters. So besides concession holding uni students travelling for 35 weeks a year, please tell us what this billion dollar project will be used for.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Straightening the main south anyone?
Definitely ! . . . a far more important priority.

How so. Inland rail will make the main south pointless and a multi purpose rail line between south western Sydney and Illawarra has way more potential then the main south for getting trucks off roads.
Pointless? Again, your point of view would carry more weight if you'd provide some figures. I apologise to those that I'm boring but the main south will continue to be the main route between the 2 largest cities in the country. It is also carries considerable amounts of grain, quarry products and garbage, just for starters. So besides concession holding uni students travelling for 35 weeks a year, please tell us what this billion dollar project will be used for.
fzr560

Badgery's creek airport and the Moorebank Intermodal.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Straightening the main south anyone?
Definitely ! . . . a far more important priority.

How so. Inland rail will make the main south pointless and a multi purpose rail line between south western Sydney and Illawarra has way more potential then the main south for getting trucks off roads.
Pointless? Again, your point of view would carry more weight if you'd provide some figures. I apologise to those that I'm boring but the main south will continue to be the main route between the 2 largest cities in the country. It is also carries considerable amounts of grain, quarry products and garbage, just for starters. So besides concession holding uni students travelling for 35 weeks a year, please tell us what this billion dollar project will be used for.

Badgery's creek airport and the Moorebank Intermodal.
simstrain
No and No
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Straightening the main south anyone?
Definitely ! . . . a far more important priority.

How so. Inland rail will make the main south pointless and a multi purpose rail line between south western Sydney and Illawarra has way more potential then the main south for getting trucks off roads.
Pointless? Again, your point of view would carry more weight if you'd provide some figures. I apologise to those that I'm boring but the main south will continue to be the main route between the 2 largest cities in the country. It is also carries considerable amounts of grain, quarry products and garbage, just for starters. So besides concession holding uni students travelling for 35 weeks a year, please tell us what this billion dollar project will be used for.

Badgery's creek airport and the Moorebank Intermodal.
No and No
fzr560

Why do you say No and No for? Please explain!!!!!
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Straightening the main south anyone?
Definitely ! . . . a far more important priority.

How so. Inland rail will make the main south pointless and a multi purpose rail line between south western Sydney and Illawarra has way more potential then the main south for getting trucks off roads.
Pointless? Again, your point of view would carry more weight if you'd provide some figures. I apologise to those that I'm boring but the main south will continue to be the main route between the 2 largest cities in the country. It is also carries considerable amounts of grain, quarry products and garbage, just for starters. So besides concession holding uni students travelling for 35 weeks a year, please tell us what this billion dollar project will be used for.

Badgery's creek airport and the Moorebank Intermodal.
No and No

Why do you say No and No for? Please explain!!!!!
simstrain
I should explain? I'm not the one suggesting that we spend one billion dollars(borrowed money) on a project that could not be justified in 1988, could not be justified in 2011 and almost certainly can't be justified ATM. If anyone needs to explain it is the person who thinks that the report is wrong. Feel free to provide some stats to support your view and tell us why the report is wrong.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Badgeries Ck won't use a heavy haul freight line for anything.  Airports and freight rail inter-modality just dont go together.

Moorebank intermodal won't use a line that doesn't connect it to the key container port (i.e. Botany) the hinterland terminals (i.e. all over NSW) or interstate terminals.

Pretty clear to me.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I should explain? I'm not the one suggesting that we spend one billion dollars(borrowed money) on a project that could not be justified in 1988, could not be justified in 2011 and almost certainly can't be justified ATM. If anyone needs to explain it is the person who thinks that the report is wrong. Feel free to provide some stats to support your view and tell us why the report is wrong.
fzr560

Except it was justified because the project was started in 1983 and only an incompetent anti rail premier in Nick Greiner stopped the project. It was started again in 2009 only to be cancelled by an anti rail prime minister in 2013.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.