Reservoir and Keon park level crossing removals

 
  62440 Deputy Commissioner

The grade approaching Reservoir is 1 in 50 and it continues rising at a lesser grade after the station. track level would have to go up around 7m, so the crest would move about 350m, beyond the existing platform. An elevated or a lowered station could improve the linkage between the shopping areas either side. There is a rail power building to consider but a trench could be built alongside, just. The road intersection is a horror, glad I don't have to use it!

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  chomper Beginner

There is one thing people are forgetting with their "maps". VicRoads and Darebin Council in their infinite wisdom hobbled High St south of the reservoirs. Not only that, Spring St has been turned into the designated arterial as it runs from St. Georges Rd (with the corresponding roadworks some years ago at Reservoir's spaghetti junction).
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
If anyone thinks I judged decisions made decades ago based on what I know now, consider this; The Caulfield to Dandenong corridor is the busiest in Greater Melbourne today. Was it the busiest corridor back in the 1950s?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Considering the terrain in that area, I wonder if Ruthven station will also be lowered during this level crossing removal project, cutting down the embankment just north of that station.
  James974 Chief Train Controller

Considering the terrain in that area, I wonder if Ruthven station will also be lowered during this level crossing removal project, cutting down the embankment just north of that station.
Myrtone
Let's wait and see LXRA options for Reservoir level crossing removal in mid-2017. I'd rather see an elevated solution since it would  be easier to untangle the junction that way and provide a better walkability in the area. Well just wait and see when it happens.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
In this case, rail-under would do just as well or better.
  TOQ-1 Chief Train Controller

Location: Power Trainger
In this case, rail-under would do just as well or better.
Not really. Rail Under, you're limited to building bridges across the trench. Rail over there's more flexibility with where you can put the pylons to rearrange the roads.

In either case theres 600m between where the Level Crossing is and Ruthven which means Reservoir can be separated without affecting it.
  James974 Chief Train Controller

Also the premier is open to more level crossings in the future, so likely will be a few on the South Morang line worthy of removals as mentioned Keon Park. Reservoir will be separated at the same time as the Bell street crossing, so still better than if it was done on it own. But there aren't as many level crossings on the South Morang line when compared with the Upfield or Frankston line. But all of the crossings are not even near Reservoir.

Most crossing are located south of Reservoir (10 crossings) all are close enough to be removed together making it easier to make it a package of works but they are not as busy as the ones up north. The Authurton Road crossing and Beavers Road as one package in Northcote. Second package of works Woolton ave, Normanby ave and Hutton street in Thornbury. And the final package of works Cramer street, Murray Road and Regent street in Preston. The level crossing Oakover road should be included in Bell street removal, but if not will be included in second package.

There are 6 crossings north, with only 2 being on really busy main roads (Keon Park and Childs Road) but Keon Park is more near two other crossings Settlement Road and Station street. If Keon Park was up for removal, I would package those three package since they are quite close proximity from each other. The other three including Childs Road can be another package of works. These packages would take priority.

If I were to rank the crossing to remove together first, Keon Park package of works, then the Child Road package, then the Preston package, then the Thornbury package and lastly the two in Northcote. If another 50 crossings were picked for removal it would be the 6 crossings North delivered in two packages to save money.

If I was going to be make it easier for the future, I would try to get the Oakover Road crossing removed at the same at as Bell street. Not as busy but it is closer to Bell street to warrant a removal and not add significant cost to the project, and then it could package the crossings in bunches of two or three. Adding Keon Park would result in extra funding on top of the 50 crossing, it would be done separately. I'd rather see it removed with the other three crossing in the new list of 50 crossings. The new list which will happen sooner than 2022, since more crossing are being fast tracked at the moment.
  James974 Chief Train Controller

In this case, rail-under would do just as well or better.
Not really. Rail Under, you're limited to building bridges across the trench. Rail over there's more flexibility with where you can put the pylons to rearrange the roads.
TOQ-1
Exactly, also I explained in detail what should happen with the level crossing removals on the South Morang Line, in a seperate post if you like to read.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Not really. Rail Under, you're limited to building bridges across the trench. Rail over there's more flexibility with where you can put the pylons to rearrange the roads.
TOQ-1

But surely there is flexilbily as to where across the trench the bridges can be located.

In either case theres 600m between where the Level Crossing is and Ruthven which means Reservoir can be separated without affecting it.
TOQ-1

What would the height difference be between Reservoir and Ruthven?

Also the premier is open to more level crossings in the future, so likely will be a few on the South Morang line worthy of removals as mentioned Keon Park. Reservoir will be separated at the same time as the Bell street crossing, so still better than if it was done on it own. But there aren't as many level crossings on the South Morang line when compared with the Upfield or Frankston line. But all of the crossings are not even near Reservoir.
James974

There is a crossover at Bell street level crossing that could not be used while Bell street, Preston, is being grade separated, but it could of course be used while the Reservoir level crossing is being grade separated.

Most crossing are located south of Reservoir (10 crossings) all are close enough to be removed together making it easier to make it a package of works but they are not as busy as the ones up north. The Authurton Road crossing and Beavers Road as one package in Northcote. Second package of works Woolton ave, Normanby ave and Hutton street in Thornbury. And the final package of works Cramer street, Murray Road and Regent street in Preston. The level crossing Oakover road should be included in Bell street removal, but if not will be included in second package.
James974

Is this a plan to close or grade separate every level crossing between Clifton Hill and Ruthven? Hopefully this will include those pedestrian level crossings.

There are 6 crossings north, with only 2 being on really busy main roads (Keon Park and Childs Road) but Keon Park is more near two other crossings Settlement Road and Station street. If Keon Park was up for removal, I would package those three package since they are quite close proximity from each other. The other three including Childs Road can be another package of works. These packages would take priority.
James974

Would some of these level crossings be closed rather than grade separated.

If I were to rank the crossing to remove together first, Keon Park package of works, then the Child Road package, then the Preston package, then the Thornbury package and lastly the two in Northcote. If another 50 crossings were picked for removal it would be the 6 crossings North delivered in two packages to save money.
James974

I'm not sure what to say on this.

If I was going to be make it easier for the future, I would try to get the Oakover Road crossing removed at the same at as Bell street. Not as busy but it is closer to Bell street to warrant a removal and not add significant cost to the project, and then it could package the crossings in bunches of two or three. Adding Keon Park would result in extra funding on top of the 50 crossing, it would be done separately. I'd rather see it removed with the other three crossing in the new list of 50 crossings. The new list which will happen sooner than 2022, since more crossing are being fast tracked at the moment.
James974

Is this about removing all level crossings past Rushall before the line is diverted?
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

If anyone thinks I judged decisions made decades ago based on what I know now, consider this; The Caulfield to Dandenong corridor is the busiest in Greater Melbourne today. Was it the busiest corridor back in the 1950s?
Myrtone
Don't know about the 50s, but the 1963 Metropolitan WTT lists 80 down trains through Hughesdale compared to 102 through Surrey Hills. I haven't compared any other lines, nor counted goods trains or country trains which may not be listed in the Metro WTT.
  AndyChee Station Staff

The M160 water mains pipeline exits reservoirs 2&3, running south along Alexandra St, west along Queen St and Powell St, then south along Spring St.  The M160 pipeline crosses the rail line underneath Powell St, north of Regent station.

Diagram map here: http://www.yoursay.melbournewater.com.au/application/files/9914/6586/7190/M40_fact_sheet_July_2015.pdf
http://www.yoursay.melbournewater.com.au/application/files/8514/6700/0822/M40_fact_sheet_June_2016.pdf

The M40 mains pipeline also crosses the railway line at some stage, though the exact location isn't shown on the map (it crosses somewhere south of Regent St).

Here's the tunnel borer used to lay the M40 pipeline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idxvBOS1qv0
  AndyChee Station Staff

I have heard of temporary water mains run on the surface when and where underground water mains are being replaced, each building having their water line temporarily attached to it. By contrast, moving or replacing railway tracks involves equipment such as buses to temporarily replace trains.
Myrtone

The water mains is not your standard underground water mains in the street.  This pipe is 1.7m in diameter, big enough for a jockey to walk upright.  The equipment required to replace such water mains is comparable to boring a rail tunnel.  Temporary surface mains substitutes for this size are not feasible.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
How far below Powell Street is the pipeline given that the slope in that area?
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
How far below Powell Street is the pipeline given that the slope in that area?
Myrtone

Contact melbourne water - yarra water etc - whoever is responsible , and ask them. Then you can enlighten us....

Regards,
David Head
  AndyChee Station Staff

How far below Powell Street is the pipeline given that the slope in that area?
Myrtone
You could make an educated guess, by looking at the Youtube video of the M40 tunnel borer above, and seeing how deep the trench was made.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
But the fact is that the railway is higher near reservoir station than is St. George's Road.
  AndyChee Station Staff

Unless you have an alternative hypothesis, it's a safe assumption that the pipeline depth at St George's Rd is the same as Powell St/Regent Station i.e. the pipeline runs parallel to the surface terrain.  If anything, the pipeline would be at a shallower depth at Powell St, in order for gravity to pull water down-slope through the network.

https://ibb.co/c966bQ
^^ the above picture of the depth cross-section is in the PDF above, showing that at St George's Rd, the pipelines (centrelines) are probably 2 metres below the surface.

By the way, you might be able to email the project team  m40@melbournewater.com.au  and ask them about the depths of the M40 and M160 pipelines at the railway crossing locations.

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