LNER A1 Tornado and the new P2 Prince of Wales

 
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I could not find the news thread on Tornado breaking 100mph, just some thoughs and vidoes.........

Extended news clip of Tornados run.............



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ayS3AT7nA

Promotional video by the P2 company



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wed_tAHB3IE

Neither of these locomotives are replica's but are the next loco in the sequence to be built, Prince of Wales is number 2007, there were 6 in the class, 2001 to 2006, 2007 being the next number. The same goes for Tornado. Both are built from the outset to comply with ALL modern regulations, the idea is for them to "home" on the mainlines. Inspite of this great effort has been put in to keep the "heritage" look. All new and additional systems being hidden as much as possible. Both builds are funded by what would now be known as "crowd funding", people are being asked to set up an automatic monthly donation equivalent in value to one beer a week, in 1990 when the "Tornado' project commenced this worked out as 1 pound 25 a week. For the "Prince of Wales it is slightly over 3 pounds  a week, still the price of a single pot.

Note: there is at least a dozen locos being built in Britain either completely from scratch or using some availible parts but mostly new components. This includes a second LNER P2, this is to be a replica of 2001 "Cock O' the North" as it was in latter life with walschaerts valve gear. Note, the P2 "Prince of Wales"is using Franklin/Lenz valve gear. The builders having done a GREAT deal of research to et it working as best they can.

In steam locomotives rebuilds NOTHING is impossible. Interestingly figures from building "Tornado" shows its VERY likely to be cheaper to build a new steam loco from scratch than rebuild one thats in poor condition.

REALLY BRINGS JOY TO ONES HEART................................

woodford

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  woodford Chief Commissioner

An interesting find came from "Tornado's" compliance testing. One of the reasons for banning steam from the main lines in Britain was the thought of the damage the balance weights on the driving wheels would do by "hammer blowing" the track. One of the tests they did for "Tornado" was to instrument a length of track to see what forces exist when the loco passed. It as found the loco was so well balanced it actual had less of hammer blow effect than the carriages.

Haynes, the publishers of all those worksop manuals has published an EXCELLENT book on the "Tornado", any one interested in steam locos particularly on modern lines will find it of interest.

woodford
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Ah, it's an overseas LNER. I wondered why I had never heard of anything like that on Tassie's Launceston and North East Railway. Although I note they have the same colour scheme as our LNER, but in reverse; Green with yellow highlights rather than yellow with green highlights.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
I could not find the news thread on Tornado breaking 100mph, just some thoughs and vidoes.........
woodford
You mean this one?
In steam locomotives rebuilds NOTHING is impossible. Interestingly figures from building "Tornado" shows its VERY likely to be cheaper to build a new steam loco from scratch than rebuild one that's in poor condition.
woodford
So when are you going to start your campaign to build a VR S class? Laughing
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
An interesting find came from "Tornado's" compliance testing. One of the reasons for banning steam from the main lines in Britain was the thought of the damage the balance weights on the driving wheels would do by "hammer blowing" the track. One of the tests they did for "Tornado" was to instrument a length of track to see what forces exist when the loco passed. It as found the loco was so well balanced it actual had less of hammer blow effect than the carriages.

Haynes, the publishers of all those worksop manuals has published an EXCELLENT book on the "Tornado", any one interested in steam locos particularly on modern lines will find it of interest.

woodford
woodford

Though the two things are not connected.

Steam was banned for a short period - approx 1968-1973 -  from BR lines, but there have been mainline specials running now for over 40 years.

Tornado did not hit the rails until 2008.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

An interesting find came from "Tornado's" compliance testing. One of the reasons for banning steam from the main lines in Britain was the thought of the damage the balance weights on the driving wheels would do by "hammer blowing" the track. One of the tests they did for "Tornado" was to instrument a length of track to see what forces exist when the loco passed. It as found the loco was so well balanced it actual had less of hammer blow effect than the carriages.

Haynes, the publishers of all those worksop manuals has published an EXCELLENT book on the "Tornado", any one interested in steam locos particularly on modern lines will find it of interest.

woodford

Though the two things are not connected.

Steam was banned for a short period - approx 1968-1973 -  from BR lines, but there have been mainline specials running now for over 40 years.

Tornado did not hit the rails until 2008.
bingley hall
While there is no direct connection, it WAS something the regulating body was worried about which is why the test was done. It was noted that "Tornado" is a 3 cylinder machine and its balance will be better than a 2 cylinder. The builders of "Tornado" did though put a lot of effort into getting the loco as good as they possibly could.

Remember the aim from the very begining of the A1 project was to build a main line steamer that would cruise at 90mph.

woodford
  t_woodroffe Assistant Commissioner

Hammer blow results from wheels not being rotationally balanced. Locomotives such as the VR R Class and NSWGR 38 Class had full rotational balance so no hammer blow. The imbalance in reciprocating forces was absorbed by the mass of the engine, tight coupling of locomotive and tender and to some degree the constant resistance trailing trucks. However, if you are in the lead car of a train hauled by an R or a 38 you can feel the piston thrusts which are not balanced by the weights in the driving wheels. I have no idea whether Tornado has its driving wheels rotationally balanced or whether some balancing of the reciprocating forces is allowed (as per, say, a VR S class.) Three cylinders allow more even torque and less balancing masses than two cylinders.

Carriages have no reciprocating masses (pistons, crossheads, rods) to balance and the wheels are rotationally balanced SO NO HAMMER BLOW.

TW
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I could not find the news thread on Tornado breaking 100mph, just some thoughs and vidoes.........
You mean this one?
In steam locomotives rebuilds NOTHING is impossible. Interestingly figures from building "Tornado" shows its VERY likely to be cheaper to build a new steam loco from scratch than rebuild one that's in poor condition.
So when are you going to start your campaign to build a VR S class? Laughing
LancedDendrite
I was disappointed in the number of people on Railpage using the word "impossible" when reffering to locomotive restoration, and I just wished to point out there is nothing either technically or politically in the end preventing one from getting steam going. I do though get the impression that overall railway control in Australia is much more immatrure than in Britain or Europe.

All the same though the A1 Steam Locomotive trust has shown the world what CAN be done it one REALLY tries. Tornado has a plaque on the front of it the says it all "THIS LOCOMOTIVE WAS BUILT AND PAYED FOR BY PEOPLE WHO SHARED A VISION AND WERE DETERMINED TO TURN  IT INTO REALITY".

woodford
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Carriages have no reciprocating masses (pistons, crossheads, rods) to balance and the wheels are rotationally balanced SO NO HAMMER BLOW.

TW
t_woodroffe
I've been in some carriages and have (trackside) felt loaded coal wagons go past with very flat tyres from lousy braking that must be damaging the rail. Thump-thump-thump...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I could not find the news thread on Tornado breaking 100mph, just some thoughs and vidoes.........
You mean this one?
In steam locomotives rebuilds NOTHING is impossible. Interestingly figures from building "Tornado" shows its VERY likely to be cheaper to build a new steam loco from scratch than rebuild one that's in poor condition.
So when are you going to start your campaign to build a VR S class? Laughing
I was disappointed in the number of people on Railpage using the word "impossible" when reffering to locomotive restoration, and I just wished to point out there is nothing either technically or politically in the end preventing one from getting steam going. I do though get the impression that overall railway control in Australia is much more immatrure than in Britain or Europe.

All the same though the A1 Steam Locomotive trust has shown the world what CAN be done it one REALLY tries. Tornado has a plaque on the front of it the says it all "THIS LOCOMOTIVE WAS BUILT AND PAYED FOR BY PEOPLE WHO SHARED A VISION AND WERE DETERMINED TO TURN  IT INTO REALITY".

woodford
woodford
Technically possible, perhaps, but politically and bureaucratically possible in Australia is another story entirely! Sad
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Tornado has a plaque on the front of it the says it all "THIS LOCOMOTIVE WAS BUILT AND PAYED FOR BY PEOPLE WHO SHARED A VISION AND WERE DETERMINED TO TURN  IT INTO REALITY".
woodford


I sincerely hope that said plaque says "PAID" and NOT "PAYED"! "PAYED" is the past tense of to pay in the sense of "to let (a ship) fall off to leeward", whereas "PAID"  is the past tense of to pay in the sense of "to give over (a certain amount of money) in exchange for something".
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Tornado has a plaque on the front of it the says it all "THIS LOCOMOTIVE WAS BUILT AND PAYED FOR BY PEOPLE WHO SHARED A VISION AND WERE DETERMINED TO TURN  IT INTO REALITY".


I sincerely hope that said plaque says "PAID" and NOT "PAYED"! "PAYED" is the past tense of to pay in the sense of "to let (a ship) fall off to leeward", whereas "PAID"  is the past tense of to pay in the sense of "to give over (a certain amount of money) in exchange for something".
Graham4405
Oops, slip of the mind, the plaque does say PAID.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I could not find the news thread on Tornado breaking 100mph, just some thoughs and vidoes.........
You mean this one?
In steam locomotives rebuilds NOTHING is impossible. Interestingly figures from building "Tornado" shows its VERY likely to be cheaper to build a new steam loco from scratch than rebuild one that's in poor condition.
So when are you going to start your campaign to build a VR S class? Laughing
I was disappointed in the number of people on Railpage using the word "impossible" when reffering to locomotive restoration, and I just wished to point out there is nothing either technically or politically in the end preventing one from getting steam going. I do though get the impression that overall railway control in Australia is much more immatrure than in Britain or Europe.

All the same though the A1 Steam Locomotive trust has shown the world what CAN be done it one REALLY tries. Tornado has a plaque on the front of it the says it all "THIS LOCOMOTIVE WAS BUILT AND PAYED FOR BY PEOPLE WHO SHARED A VISION AND WERE DETERMINED TO TURN  IT INTO REALITY".

woodford
Technically possible, perhaps, but politically and bureaucratically possible in Australia is another story entirely! Sad
YM-Mundrabilla
I think you are likely to be correct, thats why I said the Australian railways were immature. I though do not know enough about the acreditation system to make an accurate judgement. The frame work appears to be there, there's though still to much old state only system in place, with local management saying something like "this is my sand pit anyone else can go to hell". Look at VLine, they lose the NE line, so they effectively dump the its passenger service, this is NOT modern enlightened management.

woodford
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
Tornado has a plaque on the front of it the says it all "THIS LOCOMOTIVE WAS BUILT AND PAYED FOR BY PEOPLE WHO SHARED A VISION AND WERE DETERMINED TO TURN  IT INTO REALITY".


I sincerely hope that said plaque says "PAID" and NOT "PAYED"! "PAYED" is the past tense of to pay in the sense of "to let (a ship) fall off to leeward", whereas "PAID"  is the past tense of to pay in the sense of "to give over (a certain amount of money) in exchange for something".
Graham4405
Time for the enthusiasts in this country to start giving some thought to something along the same lines in this country, perhaps a new build Victorian S class on standard gauge would be a good candidate or a standard gauge South Australian 520, either would fit the loading gauge for most standard gauge lines in Australia.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
OK, excuse me while I foam off for a moment here:

This goes to show that with the right amount of organization, and the right amount of interest, a brand new Standard Gauge VR S class, or H class could in fact be built, in the same fashion as Tornado, complete with all modern safety equipment to allow higher running speeds.

The real question is whether or not the bueracracy in Victoria would allow for it to run on our tracks?

Of course, There are all sorts of things that would have to come into the thinking apart from the actual locomotive itself, for a start there is not currently any loco hauled passenger stock that is allowed to run at a speed any higher than what is currently acheived (115km/h), so if a new S class where to be built, new rollingstock would be required. Also there is currently no turning facilities at Albury, so that would need to be addressed.

Of course, this is just foaming, if the Tornado is anything to go by, it would take literally decades to build a new steam locomotive from scratch, but the thoughts are wonderful.

Just imagine a brand new H221 or S304 running at 140km/h on the North East, it would be a sight to behold.

Oh well back to reality.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Gman, it would only be possible to build S304 if a wealthy benefactor kicked off an appeal with a big donation, amounting to at least a quarter of the cost, so work could start as soon as others pledged monthly donations.

Before people mark this as "funny", there have been a few gifts of paintings worth up to $5 million to the National Gallery of Victoria in the last decade. That is about the right amount to kick off an appeal, all you need to do is find a benevolent rich person who is more mechanical than artsy-fartsy.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Of course, There are all sorts of things that would have to come into the thinking apart from the actual locomotive itself, for a start there is not currently any loco hauled passenger stock that is allowed to run at a speed any higher than what is currently acheived (115km/h), so if a new S class where to be built, new rollingstock would be required. Also there is currently no turning facilities at Albury, so that would need to be addressed.
Gman_86
If you were fine with using foreign rollingstock then XPT carriages (which theoretically might be available to preservation groups by the time a new-build was finished) would be more than capable of 140kph running on SG tracks. But 115kph running would probably be enough for most trips, which you could pull off with the original Spirit of Progress consist that SRHC has custody of, assuming the funding was available to gauge-convert it.

As for turning facilities: the real impediment is the need for a >76' turntable. This could be fixed if you were happy with using a shorter fuel-heavy tender and a high-capacity water gin (which would be needed for long-distance runs anyway). But it does help illustrate your point that it's not just the steam locomotive alone that matters in such an endeavour.

There's no doubt that you'd get a great deal of enthusiasm and perhaps even a decent level of financial support from the Australian railfan/preservation community for a new-build VR S class. The untested bit is whether that would be enough to make it a reality.
  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT
Well despite the foaming about a VR loco, is this a good time to mention that a NEW steam locomotive is ACTUALLY under construction in South Australia!!!!
Yes, true! It is a little narrow gauge "kettle" of the SAR Z-class a 4-4-0 with a 6-wheel tender.

The loco is well advanced in a shed. Still a long way to go though.

NEW steam will be on rails in Australia before too long!
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Perhaps even a decent level of financial support from the Australian railfan community
Somebody
Wishful thinking there.
  M636C Minister for Railways

In the nearly twenty years it took to build "Tornado", The Panavia Tornado aircraft after which the locomotive was named was very nearly withdrawn from RAF service. It was retained because a specific weapon guidance system had not been cleared for use on the Tornado's successor aircraft.

Both "Tornado" and "Prince of Wales" have plate frames which are readily made from available stock steel product. The bar frames used by the VR S class and H class can be cast or can be machined from slab steel, both of which would be  considerably more expensive and would require more specialised workshops than required by the plate frames of the British locomotives.

Given that the pool of enthusiasts in Australia who could fund such a construction project is probably between a fifth or a tenth of that in the UK, and the relative cost would be higher, we might expect it to take more than fifty years to complete the locomotive.

Couldn't we look at completing an operating N class (as an example) first? There is very little required to complete one of those, it would cost less and be able to run to more locations...

Similar conversions in the UK have been quite successful.

Peter
  woodford Chief Commissioner

In the nearly twenty years it took to build "Tornado", The Panavia Tornado aircraft after which the locomotive was named was very nearly withdrawn from RAF service. It was retained because a specific weapon guidance system had not been cleared for use on the Tornado's successor aircraft.

Both "Tornado" and "Prince of Wales" have plate frames which are readily made from available stock steel product. The bar frames used by the VR S class and H class can be cast or can be machined from slab steel, both of which would be  considerably more expensive and would require more specialised workshops than required by the plate frames of the British locomotives.

Given that the pool of enthusiasts in Australia who could fund such a construction project is probably between a fifth or a tenth of that in the UK, and the relative cost would be higher, we might expect it to take more than fifty years to complete the locomotive.

Couldn't we look at completing an operating N class (as an example) first? There is very little required to complete one of those, it would cost less and be able to run to more locations...

Similar conversions in the UK have been quite successful.

Peter
M636C
The reason for my starting of the thread is to show there's no such thing as "impossible" as some were saying in steam loco restoration area. The reason so much "new construction" is going on in Britain is they have runout of all the easy loco's to rebuild and are having to build a substantial percentage of there projects from scratch. Its is of course obvious that this stage has NOT been reached in Australia and I would love to see an N class up and running or maybe a J class on SG. There also appears to be a much greater market for heritage operations in Britain than in Australia, possible this because such operations are better understood and excepted by the overall railway establishment, where in Aus they appear to be in some way regarded as a nuisance.

A major problem does exist certainly in Victoria because it appears the Victorian Railways trashed all the loco drawings, Puffing Billy managed to save the NA and G drawings as a PB sympathisor was invloved in this trashing. It looks as though all others may now be gone. (i would be happy to hear otherwise). In Britain at least Doncaster donated all there loco drawings (11,000 of them) to the National Railway Museum as a consequence almost all the drawings for the A1 and the P2 were availible, all the AI trust had to do was sort all those drawings (the whole 11,000) out, as they were not in any order.

M636c said..............

"The bar frames used by the VR S class and H class can be cast or can be machined from slab steel......."

You can profile cut 150mm plate steel no problems, its relatively slow and it eats oxygen but it is no real issues. The NSW 60class garrats have cast steel frames, but one could fabricate these though. P and H the crane people build the chassis's of there large cranes and excatavators on site using submerged arc welding. They do this as there to large to move easily.

woodford
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

In the nearly twenty years it took to build "Tornado", The Panavia Tornado aircraft after which the locomotive was named was very nearly withdrawn from RAF service. It was retained because a specific weapon guidance system had not been cleared for use on the Tornado's successor aircraft.

Both "Tornado" and "Prince of Wales" have plate frames which are readily made from available stock steel product. The bar frames used by the VR S class and H class can be cast or can be machined from slab steel, both of which would be  considerably more expensive and would require more specialised workshops than required by the plate frames of the British locomotives.

Given that the pool of enthusiasts in Australia who could fund such a construction project is probably between a fifth or a tenth of that in the UK, and the relative cost would be higher, we might expect it to take more than fifty years to complete the locomotive.

Couldn't we look at completing an operating N class (as an example) first? There is very little required to complete one of those, it would cost less and be able to run to more locations...

Similar conversions in the UK have been quite successful.

Peter
The reason for my starting of the thread is to show there's no such thing as "impossible" as some were saying in steam loco restoration area. The reason so much "new construction" is going on in Britain is they have runout of all the easy loco's to rebuild and are having to build a substantial percentage of there projects from scratch. Its is of course obvious that this stage has NOT been reached in Australia and I would love to see an N class up and running or maybe a J class on SG. There also appears to be a much greater market for heritage operations in Britain than in Australia, possible this because such operations are better understood and excepted by the overall railway establishment, where in Aus they appear to be in some way regarded as a nuisance.

A major problem does exist certainly in Victoria because it appears the Victorian Railways trashed all the loco drawings, Puffing Billy managed to save the NA and G drawings as a PB sympathisor was invloved in this trashing. It looks as though all others may now be gone. (i would be happy to hear otherwise). In Britain at least Doncaster donated all there loco drawings (11,000 of them) to the National Railway Museum as a consequence almost all the drawings for the A1 and the P2 were availible, all the AI trust had to do was sort all those drawings (the whole 11,000) out, as they were not in any order.

M636c said..............

"The bar frames used by the VR S class and H class can be cast or can be machined from slab steel......."

You can profile cut 150mm plate steel no problems, its relatively slow and it eats oxygen but it is no real issues. The NSW 60class garrats have cast steel frames, but one could fabricate these though. P and H the crane people build the chassis's of there large cranes and excatavators on site using submerged arc welding. They do this as there to large to move easily.

woodford
woodford
Knocking up a fabricated plate frame for a British type loco might be cost effective, but I doubt the same could be said for somehow manufacturing a bar or a cast steel frame. For all the fuss about British steam locos they were technically backward in many aspects. They were fast because they were light and pulled light weight passenger cars. I would rate the chances of the best in British steam pulling something like the Broadway Limited as next to zero.
  Clarke Hudswell Junior Train Controller

And the point you are trying to make is what? That a locomotive built to a 13' high outline and a 19 ton axle load cannot pull as heavy a load as one built to a 15' high gauge and a 30 ton axle load?
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

And the point you are trying to make is what? That a locomotive built to a 13' high outline and a 19 ton axle load cannot pull as heavy a load as one built to a 15' high gauge and a 30 ton axle load?
"Clarke Hudswell"


Yes!!!
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I would rate the chances of the best in British steam pulling something like the Broadway Limited as next to zero


Not a fair or valid comparison there ! How many carriages and total tonnage does the Broadway Limited entail and compare to a Bristish train hauling the same amount of people.  How  much does a average Broadway Ltd carriage weigh compared to a British or Australian one?

Or, how  many people/tonnage did the Scotsman pull is Australia ?

Let's cpompare realistic items.

Regards,
David Head

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