Federal Budget - $20 billion investment in rail

 

News article: $20 billion investment in rail

The Turnbull-Joyce Government is delivering a $20 billion investment in rail that will cut congestion in cities, grow the regions and create thousands of new jobs.

  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Off topic...

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The railway....
"I think there was a mass act of stupidity of putting poles right next to the gutter such"

Hindsight is 20:20 - Electricity was mass rolled out well before the uptake of cars and busses....

"Hitting a +2 foot diameter timber power pole"

Again, hindsight. The rollout of timber power poles came long before the automobile. My point was around idealism vs reality. In my mum's mind "they build things to last in SA". In reality, Vic switched to collapsible hollow concrete and steel (initially on main roads) when they realised there was an issue with people dying. SA eventually caught on in more recent years and started creating collapsible stobie poles with hollow centres....

Timber poles are still used in Vic, but not on fast travelling thoroughfares.

"Most people I know who have used any of the East Coast Suburban railways and Perth normally have praise for Perth."

Oh I love Perth. It's beautiful. But the proof is in the taste of the pudding... Melbourne and Sydney have always been economic powerhouses. People move there because it's where things happen. People are attracted to chaos.

A pretty doll by comparison usually sits on a shelf or in a glass cabinet never to be touched.....


"The railway down the centre of a freeway is excellent use of space"

In an ideal world. But from a user point of view it's unwelcoming. Your points above raised about distance from homes and bus stops, equally applies to Perth. It's just in Perth you have the addition of a long walk (or ride) over an uncovered bridge over freeway lanes directly out in the elements without any shelter from surrounding buildings or trees or shop canopies.

As stated, beautiful in theory and in an ideal world. But leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to practicality from a user point of view. For the train driver, it's fantastic. For the freeway drivers, it's amazing, For the town planners, it's beautiful and poetic.

Me, on my bike, wielding an umbrella, when it's windy and rainy? Well it doesn't rain that much in Perth I suppose, but give me Melbourne's Public transport system anyday.....




cabidass
So the timber power poles that line the city streets only mm off the gutter were installed before cars?

I do remember many years back that it dawned on them that there was a probably and did a big PR exercise that as poles were replaced they would be set back. Meanwhile back in the late 80's me catching the bus up Victoria Road in Sydney I could see the "nicks" taken out of the majority of power poles along the way. And yes when I look at the outer corner of the top of  some of the buses, especially above the rear wheel, bits of point missing.

Note: a collapsing light pole is inherently dangerous, a collapsing power power bringing down power lines with it is likely to be more problematic for the accident and rescuers. Bringing down HV lines adds even more to the mix and itself could cause more problems that was was solved.

The "quaint" inner suburban stations of the past where most users are walk up are nice. Make good for photos and modelling etc, although hopeless and costly to service with a train designed to carry 1000 people stopping every 2-3min.

The modern mega stations are not so "quaint", designed for mass numbers, spaced 6-10min apart, usually surrounded by large carparks and bus transfer stations or kiss and ride drop offs and longer walks to the platform. However long walkways over the free way, should be covered, but if riding your bike, then the rain should not have been an issue for you anyway as you have chosen to get wet.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Each to their own I suppose.

There of course are little studies on the subject matter that I'm aware of. And of the studies that do exist, there is usually another that says the exact opposite...

Power poles falling, it's not like the movies. They trip out and shut off.....

I love how people say "Oh my friend visited Perth and they love the way everything is laid out" and then fail to mention... Oh, and then they came back to live and work in Melbourne....

The truth is in the result.

If Perth's layout of everything was so fantastic, people would just move over there in droves. But there are other factors at play. Like life.

And then if everyone did move over there, I'm guessing the problems that Melb and Sydney face presently, would quickly appear over there....

I must admit I haven't been in a while, but last time I was there, most of the major suburban bus stops didn't even have shelters. They were little more than park benches.  I remember thinking how funny it was that I went to the suburbs, from a regional area, and there were less shelters... Things may have changed since then but it was an eye opener at the time.

Back in Melbourne if I'm on foot, I just walk under the shop canopies or in the shelter of the trees and houses/buildings.

Go to Perth, make the long walk on the gang plank out in the elements because someone put a railway line in the middle of a freeway.

A truck catches fire ploombing black acrid smoke, and the freeway and rail line gets shut down..

Melb, things just keep rolling on.

Maybe someone should do a study on it all.....
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Road project typically have good short term benefits, but then it goes away quickly as the capacity of the road gets limited. Rail projects have great long term benefit since the capacity is increased by a much substantial amount. To reduce the traffic on Parramatta Road simply reduce the lanes. Less lanes means less traffic, and with the extra space add a dedicated Transit Lane, could be used for Buses or Trams and cycling.

In the 21st Century, there are many more efficient ways to increase the capacity of the road, by simply having different modes of transport using it. If Sydney kept its trams in the first place on Paramatta Road, the traffic would be reduced compared to today. This is because less space is used on the road to carry the same amount of people on cars. This can be done without the need of billions spent on the tunnel, that would just means more people would use their cars on already congested parts of Sydney.
It is a bit simplistic to suggest that you could just remove a traffic lane from Parramatta Road and then all your transport problems would be fixed!  Sure the outcome would be less traffic on Parramatta Road, but what you would also find is that Parramatta Road would be at a stand still for more hours during the day, which would also spread to more roads in the surrounding area.

If you want to attract economic activity to Sydney or any other city for that matter, it is imperative that you have a transport network that is fit for purpose.  This means that you can't have freeways that simply end in the inner suburban area and force all the traffic onto an inadequate arterial road.  This is why projects like Westconnex in Sydney and East-West Link in Victoria are needed.

Take CityLink in Victoria that was constructed in the late 1990s.  Based on your argument, you would say that it would be better if this project had never been built.  Can you imagine how difficult it would be to travel between the eastern and western suburbs of Melbourne if this project did not exist today?

Obviously I support public transport projects given that I spend my time reading these forums, but to take the view that all road projects are bad is a simplistic argument and one that I would only expect to be put forward by the Greens or other extreme left parties.

Ross
Rossco T
I see you are still whining about the scrapping of the E-W Link. I agree though that D Andrews has canned the E-W link for the wrong reasons. To shore up votes and to try and head off the green vote.

I cannot speak for NSW but as regards to Victoria ever since I have been here (26 Years) the Transport spend has gone overwhelmingly to freeways and you can see evidence of this, from old one aspect signalling to rolling stock that is over 50 years old and rotting wooden sleepers on the Metro network and on the other hand brand spanking new freeways all over the shop. People now want an efficient PT network and is fed up with the Victorian obsession with freeways. Vic has the best road network and there is still congestion and for you to label every one who rails against the obsession with freeways as extreme left wing is utter crap and you are just not listening to the posters. Many of whom have stated that the Ring Road should be completed before the E-W link.

Michael
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I see you are still whining about the scrapping of the E-W Link. I agree though that D Andrews has canned the E-W link for the wrong reasons. To shore up votes and to try and head off the green vote.

I cannot speak for NSW but as regards to Victoria ever since I have been here (26 Years) the Transport spend has gone overwhelmingly to freeways and you can see evidence of this, from old one aspect signalling to rolling stock that is over 50 years old and rotting wooden sleepers on the Metro network and on the other hand brand spanking new freeways all over the shop. People now want an efficient PT network and is fed up with the Victorian obsession with freeways. Vic has the best road network and there is still congestion and for you to label every one who rails against the obsession with freeways as extreme left wing is utter crap and you are just not listening to the posters. Many of whom have stated that the Ring Road should be completed before the E-W link.

Michael
mejhammers1
He canned it because it didn't stack up, only 45 cent return for every dollar invested. It was a money losing project because first tunnelling in the city is quite expensive and second the it is essential a freeway bypass, anyone using the Eastern Freeway are probably just trying to get into the CBD. So yeah East West Link is just as bad as the WestConnex, again its a CBD bypass, where most traffic would rather head into the CBD or Parramatta.

The North East Link project is actually probably the only freeway that makes sense to build at the moment, but even though it'll cost alot, a rail link there wouldn't make sense since it goes through a green wedge, unlikely get developments there.

Victoria hasn't got the huge funding into rail since the city loop was built in the 1980s. Most of it was constructing roads and has never fixed any congestion. Recent rail extensions/electrification have happened over the past decade and slowing seeing new rolling stock. The tracks are outdated and the level crossings still exist. Now at least huge funding has been added to remove level crossings and build Metro tunnel and an extension out to Mernda. There have been talks about electrifying to Melton and the Airport link. Also some single track section are up for duplicating as well. But more still needs to be done.

Sydney, I'm not so sure about, but its rail network is 10 times better since it has double deckers, no level crossings and not much single track at all. But Sydney roads are the most congested, as known in the news. But I don't think building more roads to connect other roads makes sense and relieve congestion. Melbourne has done that with CityLink and EastLink and all it does it distribute the traffic somewhere else. East Link brought traffic onto Eastern Freeway. And City Link brought traffic Kings street, Dynon Road, Footscray Road, Alexander Parade, and Montague street. If you've been in that part of Melbourne you see that these areas are not pedestrian friendly and bring congestion onto those arterial roads.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

He canned it because it didn't stack up, only 45 cent return for every dollar invested. It was a money losing project .....
James974

I don't think the economic argument of '45c in the dollar' is really a valid one overall. While it is regularly cited, as someone else has already pointed out, governments pick and choose the use of business cases on projects depending on something as irrelevant as their bowel movements in the morning...

Besides, a business case is never a sole valid gauge to a projects viability.

What I take with more weight, is that the likes of RACV champions the EW link, but it's further down the list when compared to the NW Ring Road.

The likes of the RACV seem to do a better job of gauging objective community sentiment and outcome.

With regards to the City Loop, works began in 1971. This was likely after a few years of deliberations of varying solutions. So we are talking mid 60s. At that time rail use was still extremely popular, and cars were a lot rarer than they are now.

Since that time, the cost of cars plummeted, or more so they became more desirable and a larger slice of the family budget. That is why rail investment stymied.

We wanted independence. And we could afford it.

Now we are seeing a reversal of that trend. Since the boom times in the naughties, household budgets have increasingly got squeezed as people have spent well beyond their means. Despite getting out of the GFC unscathed, our household debt is a record highs. Literally.

If I take the car to Melb from Latrobe Valley, it costs me about $50 in fuel, and about $30 in parking. And I have to stay alert and awake as I drive. If I take the train, it costs me about $30. And I get to sleep. Now I was only doing this on the odd occasion for a high paying contract. But imaging someone who does this 5 days a week! When we add in the cost savings from weekly/monthly/concession tickets, the savings yield adds up immensely.

When you have debt to pay off, this matters.

Despite the suggestion of green motivations, this is the largest reason why train travel is back in vogue - Money. Or lack thereof.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sydney, I'm not so sure about, but its rail network is 10 times better since it has double deckers, no level crossings and not much single track at all. But Sydney roads are the most congested, as known in the news. But I don't think building more roads to connect other roads makes sense and relieve congestion.
James974

The difference is that it isn't just roads being invested in Sydney. Light rail, Sydney Metro, New electric rolling stock, new ferries are also being invested in. It isn't one or the other that is being done it is both types. I mentioned also the possibility exists once westconnex is finished to put in a LR or t-way along parramatta road.

P.S. Might I also point out that the moorebank intermodal terminal also has the ability to move trucks off the Motorways in addition to the existing ones in south western Sydney. https://www.railexpress.com.au/qube-kicks-off-moorebank-development/
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
I see you are still whining about the scrapping of the E-W Link. I agree though that D Andrews has canned the E-W link for the wrong reasons. To shore up votes and to try and head off the green vote.

I cannot speak for NSW but as regards to Victoria ever since I have been here (26 Years) the Transport spend has gone overwhelmingly to freeways and you can see evidence of this, from old one aspect signalling to rolling stock that is over 50 years old and rotting wooden sleepers on the Metro network and on the other hand brand spanking new freeways all over the shop. People now want an efficient PT network and is fed up with the Victorian obsession with freeways. Vic has the best road network and there is still congestion and for you to label every one who rails against the obsession with freeways as extreme left wing is utter crap and you are just not listening to the posters. Many of whom have stated that the Ring Road should be completed before the E-W link.

Michael
mejhammers1

You are correct that in Victoria, up until around the late 1990s/early 2000s (around the time of the original Regional Fast Rail Project) there was a significant imbalance in transport spending, with nearly all the money going to roads and freeway projects and very little going to public transport.

This is partially understandable as rail patronage had been in decline and the rail network poorly managed until things started to pick up in the late 1990s.

However, we have now moved on substantially from this time, with lots of significant rail projects starting from the 1990s as follows:

  • Cranbourne electrification
  • Sprinter Trains
  • Watergardens electrification
  • Xtrapolis and Siemens Trains
  • Craigieburn electrification
  • Regional Fast Rail/V/Locity Trains
  • Clifton Hill - Westgarth Duplication
  • South Morang Extension (including Keon Park - Epping Duplication)
  • Regional Rail Link
  • New suburban stations (eg Cardinia Rd, Lynbrook, Roxburgh Park etc)
  • Significant improvement in off-peak service frequencies to 10 minutes on many lines)
  • Sunbury Electrification
  • Grade Separations (various)
  • Mernda Rail Extension
  • Heidelberg-Rosanna Duplication
  • Melbourne Metro
  • Melton Duplication/Ballarat Line Upgrade


However, just because the rail network has historically been underfunded does not mean that we can simply ignore the freeway network. The existing ending of the Eastern Freeway at Hoddle Street is inefficient and constructing EWL will make this work better.

I don't recall making the argument that EWL is more important than completing the Ring Road as they are both important projects and each with their own challenges.

There may be some on these pages who do not support EWL and would prefer to see the funding reallocated to rail projects, and fair enough as this is afterall a rail forum.  However polling at the time of the 2014 State Election showed that support for the EWL was sitting at around  65%.  This shows that Dan Andrews was able to win the election despite supporting the scrapping of the project and not because of it, although I will concede that it may have helped him hand onto some of the inner city seats from the Greens.

Ross
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
He canned it because it didn't stack up, only 45 cent return for every dollar invested. It was a money losing project because first tunnelling in the city is quite expensive and second the it is essential a freeway bypass, anyone using the Eastern Freeway are probably just trying to get into the CBD. So yeah East West Link is just as bad as the WestConnex, again its a CBD bypass, where most traffic would rather head into the CBD or Parramatta.
James974
That is Dan Andrew's claim that the project didn't stack up to justify his (political) decision for scrapping the project.  The 45 cent return is not what is contained in the final business case for the project, this is just a figure that Dan Andrews would like you to believe.

Maybe we will have to just wait and see what happens when the EWL gets built (and it will as there will be another Coalition Government at some point in the future) and we'll see if the project actually makes money.  CityLink seems to be a fairly good earner for Transurban afterall, and that included a fairly expensive tunnel.

Ross
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

He canned it because it didn't stack up, only 45 cent return for every dollar invested. It was a money losing project because first tunnelling in the city is quite expensive and second the it is essential a freeway bypass, anyone using the Eastern Freeway are probably just trying to get into the CBD. So yeah East West Link is just as bad as the WestConnex, again its a CBD bypass, where most traffic would rather head into the CBD or Parramatta.
That is Dan Andrew's claim that the project didn't stack up to justify his (political) decision for scrapping the project.  The 45 cent return is not what is contained in the final business case for the project, this is just a figure that Dan Andrews would like you to believe.

Maybe we will have to just wait and see what happens when the EWL gets built (and it will as there will be another Coalition Government at some point in the future) and we'll see if the project actually makes money.  CityLink seems to be a fairly good earner for Transurban afterall, and that included a fairly expensive tunnel.

Ross
Rossco T
I had a nice look into the East West Link Document and found out that the claim is true that the project didn't stack up. BCR without WEBs = 0.8 which already included widening to the Tulla and Eastern Freeways. Also made an assumption that the Doncaster rail and Metro rail would not significantly reduce the benefits of east west connection. It clearly states house prices will drop from the visual overhead ramps.

I only believe that it would be money making if they built the North East Link first, then the East West Link. This was not the case in the document, it said the North East link also wouldn't change anything either. Who do you want to believe cause the document assumes benefits like time savings, which we know only last very short on freeways. Also says it would help development of Arden which could be delivered with Metro Rail instead.

Maybe you should have a look at the document yourself.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
I had a nice look into the East West Link Document and found out that the claim is true that the project didn't stack up. BCR without WEBs = 0.8 which already included widening to the Tulla and Eastern Freeways. Also made an assumption that the Doncaster rail and Metro rail would not significantly reduce the benefits of east west connection. It clearly states house prices will drop from the visual overhead ramps.

I only believe that it would be money making if they built the North East Link first, then the East West Link. This was not the case in the document, it said the North East link also wouldn't change anything either. Who do you want to believe cause the document assumes benefits like time savings, which we know only last very short on freeways. Also says it would help development of Arden which could be delivered with Metro Rail instead.

Maybe you should have a look at the document yourself.
James974

That's true that the business case suggested that the BCR without WEBs was 0.8, but the BCR with WEBS was 1.4.  I guess that leaves you with the philosophical argument about whether or not WEBs should be included in this type of analysis.  I think it is a bit simplistic to argue that the project didn't stack up, I would suggest that it's more political 'spin' to justify Dan Andrews's position.

One thing that would have made the BCR much higher was if the western portion of EWL (i.e. CityLink to Western Ring Road) were to be included in the analysis.  For whatever reason the Government chose to split the project into 2 sections with separate analysis undertaken to justify each component on its own merits.  My understanding is that if both halves of the project were to be considered as a single package the BCR would have been higher.

Interesting your comments about North East Link, my expectation is that if North East Link is constructed first then some of the demand for EWL would be reduced.  I am thinking about the traffic that comes from the Ringwood area and heads towards the northern industrial areas.  This traffic would now have the ability to use NEL without having to cut through the inner northern suburbs.

Will be interesting to see what ends up happening...

Ross
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
....

Interesting your comments about North East Link, my expectation is that if North East Link is constructed first then some of the demand for EWL would be reduced.  I am thinking about the traffic that comes from the Ringwood area and heads towards the northern industrial areas.  This traffic would now have the ability to use NEL without having to cut through the inner northern suburbs.

Will be interesting to see what ends up happening...

Ross
Rossco T
I would say that a lot of heavy industrial traffic is better off diverted towards where they're actually going anyway (Hume Fwy, Western Ring Road, Tullamarine, etc) rather than taking them through the inner city just because that's where the big $$$ is being spent. NE Link will ultimately divert a lot of heavy trucking away from the Monash and the city which is a good thing - better than a huge tunnel under Carlton and Parkville.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

As Pascoe pointed out its all a con because it is over 10 years.
Pointed out.....?

It was mentioned twice in the government's own press release.
bingley hall
And how many punters read the press releases?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

As Pascoe pointed out its all a con because it is over 10 years.
Pointed out.....?

It was mentioned twice in the government's own press release.
bingley hall
And how many punters read the press releases?
"nswtrains"



People have certain view points based on there own preferences and experiences, and most will NOT shift from there particular view no matter WHAT evidence one can supply. Its in the end one of democracies great weakness's. You cannot FORCE anyone to read information, particularly a lot of government information which is often seen as either politically motivated or biased.

It takes a great deal of effort to obtain accurate information, as I woodford, know only to well. Most people simply are not able to do such investigations, so are victims of the mass media, none of which is in any way really accurate.

woodford
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

As an offside to the new airport at BC being built. http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/05/northrop-grumman-announces-electronic-systems-support-facility-for-western-sydney/

I am not against the cross river rail or any other rail project in Qld and Victoria. I just think it is incorrect to state that NSW is getting all this money when the inland rail is primarily designed to better connect Brisbane to Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth and doesn't do anything significant for the NSW economy after construction is finished. It is truly a national project.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I think it is also time for state governments to stop treating the federal government like a piggy bank.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
I think it is also time for state governments to stop treating the federal government like a piggy bank.
simstrain
Then states would have to raise more revenue. Anyone for higher taxes?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I think it is also time for state governments to stop treating the federal government like a piggy bank.
Then states would have to raise more revenue. Anyone for higher taxes?
Graham4405

Happy to if it goes to good projects that make returns elsewhere.  Im all for land taxes for example (assuming stamp duties and payroll taxes are slashed)
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I think it is also time for state governments to stop treating the federal government like a piggy bank.
Then states would have to raise more revenue. Anyone for higher taxes?
Graham4405

Welcome to how Sydney operates. Because NSW only gets back a fraction of the taxes it's people pay to the federal government it has had to get involved in privatisation in rail, road and hospitals. In conjunction with stamp duty, opal, toll kickbacks and higher registration fees. Moving the fee for the emergency services levy out of insurance and into council rates to make sure foreigners pay this important fee. NSW has had to do this since federation.

Private hospitals are big business in Sydney. Many people unhappy with wait times at public hospitals are paying more to get certain surgeries done sooner in private facilities. This is how things are in Sydney.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I think it is also time for state governments to stop treating the federal government like a piggy bank.
Then states would have to raise more revenue. Anyone for higher taxes?
Graham4405

We are low taxed by comparison with many, especially European countries...I'm happy to pay higher taxes if I know the end result is better infrastructure and other services.

Around 2 years ago Deputy PM Joyce was on ABC's Q & A programme.

Tony Jones (presenter) asked Barnaby a question regards infrastructure and Barnaby said if we want more infrastructure etc we need to pay higher taxes.

Barnaby then asked the audience...who is happy to pay higher taxes so the government can improve infrastructure and other services...Question
Expecting no show of hands from the audience, nearly half put their hands up.

Barnaby was confounded and he soon realised the ABC audience are generally an educated lot....something he obviously wasn't used to.

Mike.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
We are low taxed by comparison with many, especially European countries...I'm happy to pay higher taxes if I know the end result is better infrastructure and other services.
The Vinelander

Yes, I understand and agree. But the average Australian probably doesn't. As a nation we have been pushing taxes down for as long as I can remember!
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I see you are still whining about the scrapping of the E-W Link. I agree though that D Andrews has canned the E-W link for the wrong reasons. To shore up votes and to try and head off the green vote.

I cannot speak for NSW but as regards to Victoria ever since I have been here (26 Years) the Transport spend has gone overwhelmingly to freeways and you can see evidence of this, from old one aspect signalling to rolling stock that is over 50 years old and rotting wooden sleepers on the Metro network and on the other hand brand spanking new freeways all over the shop. People now want an efficient PT network and is fed up with the Victorian obsession with freeways. Vic has the best road network and there is still congestion and for you to label every one who rails against the obsession with freeways as extreme left wing is utter crap and you are just not listening to the posters. Many of whom have stated that the Ring Road should be completed before the E-W link.

Michael

You are correct that in Victoria, up until around the late 1990s/early 2000s (around the time of the original Regional Fast Rail Project) there was a significant imbalance in transport spending, with nearly all the money going to roads and freeway projects and very little going to public transport.

This is partially understandable as rail patronage had been in decline and the rail network poorly managed until things started to pick up in the late 1990s.

However, we have now moved on substantially from this time, with lots of significant rail projects starting from the 1990s as follows:

  • Cranbourne electrification
  • Sprinter Trains
  • Watergardens electrification
  • Xtrapolis and Siemens Trains
  • Craigieburn electrification
  • Regional Fast Rail/V/Locity Trains
  • Clifton Hill - Westgarth Duplication
  • South Morang Extension (including Keon Park - Epping Duplication)
  • Regional Rail Link
  • New suburban stations (eg Cardinia Rd, Lynbrook, Roxburgh Park etc)
  • Significant improvement in off-peak service frequencies to 10 minutes on many lines)
  • Sunbury Electrification
  • Grade Separations (various)
  • Mernda Rail Extension
  • Heidelberg-Rosanna Duplication
  • Melbourne Metro
  • Melton Duplication/Ballarat Line Upgrade


However, just because the rail network has historically been underfunded does not mean that we can simply ignore the freeway network. The existing ending of the Eastern Freeway at Hoddle Street is inefficient and constructing EWL will make this work better.

I don't recall making the argument that EWL is more important than completing the Ring Road as they are both important projects and each with their own challenges.

There may be some on these pages who do not support EWL and would prefer to see the funding reallocated to rail projects, and fair enough as this is afterall a rail forum.  However polling at the time of the 2014 State Election showed that support for the EWL was sitting at around  65%.  This shows that Dan Andrews was able to win the election despite supporting the scrapping of the project and not because of it, although I will concede that it may have helped him hand onto some of the inner city seats from the Greens.

Ross
Rossco T
I never said to Ignore the freeway network Rossco. The point I was making that whilst our PT assets were sweated to the point of exhaustion, brand new spanking freeways were being built. For a supposedly first world jurisdiction like Victoria, that is not much of a list over 27 years. On further examination some do not add up to much. Let's look at the rolling stock investments for e.g. By 2019 we will have 101 x 6 car Xtrapolis on the network. This has taken 17 years!! 17 years for a cheap, base off the shelf product. In comparison TFL built 192 7 and 8 car trains in 8 years and Sydney 78 x 8 car trains in 9 years. Both of which are much more sophisticated than the Xtrapolis.

The existing ending of the Eastern Freeway at Hoddle Street is inefficient and constructing EWL will make this work better.

How Rossco, how is the E-W link going to help with traffic on Hoddle Street which is a N-S road?. Traffic will still exit at Hoddle Street with all the ensuing congestion.

And Rossco, remember the last Government diverted some $350 Million from a major rail project to find a country road by-pass. That should not bee acceptable.

Michael
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The existing ending of the Eastern Freeway at Hoddle Street is inefficient and constructing EWL will make this work better.

How Rossco, how is the E-W link going to help with traffic on Hoddle Street which is a N-S road?. Traffic will still exit at Hoddle Street with all the ensuing congestion.

And Rossco, remember the last Government diverted some $350 Million from a major rail project to find a country road by-pass. That should not bee acceptable.

Michael
mejhammers1

The answer is that east west through traffic can be diverted under and allow faster north south traffic flow at hoddle street. Mind you a cheaper solution is to just build an underpass at hoddle street instead of a whole new freeway.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I think it is also time for state governments to stop treating the federal government like a piggy bank.
Then states would have to raise more revenue. Anyone for higher taxes?

We are low taxed by comparison with many, especially European countries...I'm happy to pay higher taxes if I know the end result is better infrastructure and other services.

Around 2 years ago Deputy PM Joyce was on ABC's Q & A programme.

Tony Jones (presenter) asked Barnaby a question regards infrastructure and Barnaby said if we want more infrastructure etc we need to pay higher taxes.

Barnaby then asked the audience...who is happy to pay higher taxes so the government can improve infrastructure and other services...Question
Expecting no show of hands from the audience, nearly half put their hands up.

Barnaby was confounded and he soon realised the ABC audience are generally an educated lot....something he obviously wasn't used to.

Mike.
The Vinelander
One pf the problems here is politicians when ever any infrastructure project comes are constantly bombarded by financial questions usually about the tax burden, and as they almost never talk to the people directly they get a false image.
I get the impression that neither major party has learned ANYTHING about the defeat of the liberal party in Indi................ What, a $100 million to completely fix the NE line, thats a joke.............

Also look at the amount of media tax cuts always get..........................

woodford

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