Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

Longer distance rail services in Britain are nothing like V/Line.  They have Wifi better food and drink and better seats and they are not velocity crap.
x31
And doors that you stick your head out the window to find the door handle on the outside (Intercity 125 type trains)

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  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
All great in  increasing frequency to encourage more use. But if it is too hard to get to the station, most will drive.

whether   a huge increase in parking, a huge increase in bus to station as feeders, or somewhere in between may be needed, and not just the Geelong station - this could apply to many other metro lines as well.

Regards,
David Head
  Tony M. Station Master

Interestingly, it was pointed out to me that the big office blocks currently being built in Geelong's CBD to house the various government departments being transferred there (to try and make up for the jobs shortfall now that Ford's and Alcoa have closed) are all maybe five minutes walk from Geelong station.

Considering how much Melbourne-based government workers dislike moving out to live in rural centers, and how the Geelong job market isn't currently over-saturated with skilled office workers, it'll be interesting to see if Geelong gets more commuter traffic flowing the other way in coming years.

(it was also pointed out that you currently can't get a park in the Geelong station car park because all the tradies working on those office blocks are leaving their cars there all day)
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
If you do the maths, 200km/hr trains and track will have to work hard to save +10min as no way will you get 200km/h station to station. Yes its possible, Vienna certainly managed it (within 1km of main station you are +150km/h), but at significant cost and for much longer distance and more populated services at a much higher frequency.
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
If you do the maths, 200km/hr trains and track will have to work hard to save +10min as no way will you get 200km/h station to station. Yes its possible, Vienna certainly managed it (within 1km of main station you are +150km/h), but at significant cost and for much longer distance and more populated services at a much higher frequency.
RTT_Rules
I did the math yesterday with some of @woodford's calculations from other threads. A 30 minute EMU service to the CBD from Geelong would be achievable with 200km/h rolling stock and a new shorter, direct alignment into the CBD (Metro2) originating at Geelong with stops at North Geelong then Newport, Port Melbourne, Southbank & Flinders St. Any more stops and the 30 minute target isn't achievable.

This type of service would come at the cost of many billions of dollars.



No Government in our lifetime will ever make the sort of investment needed to run this type of service even if they make outlandish statements that they will. You simply can't justify it.

I think we all need to accept that the current service is what it is and move on.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

30 minutes geelong to the melbourne cbd is ludacrisly not needed.   Even 45 minutes is foam territory.
  cabidass Train Controller

This type of service would come at the cost of many billions of dollars.

No Government in our lifetime will ever make the sort of investment.......
SamTheMan79

Well it does depend on what happens with long term population over the next 33 years.

Previous forecasts by the ABS were suggesting a Melbourne population of 10mil by that time. In the Herald Sun yesterday, they were leaning towards 8mil.

Whatever the resulting number, it then becomes a question of where the people live and work.

For the last 30 years we've seen this 'centralisation' rhetoric. Now, we are getting loud cries and policy for 'decentralisation'.

So if we break that down, if the people live and work in these satellite hubs (either suburban or regional), there is less need for an express service to Melbourne proper.

However, if the people are decentralised, but the work is still centralised in a large part, that means the need for a higher speed service is greater.

I can't see a 200km service to/from Geelong. Not at this stage. But a service with a much greater speed, as well as more express trains that only come from select stations as well, well that seems more probable in my opinion.

When we break it down, for the last 100 years our state has operated in a 'less than ideal' way. We rarely get what we really (think we) need. Yet the world and economy and life, still turns.
  John.Z Junior Train Controller

If you do the maths, 200km/hr trains and track will have to work hard to save +10min as no way will you get 200km/h station to station. Yes its possible, Vienna certainly managed it (within 1km of main station you are +150km/h), but at significant cost and for much longer distance and more populated services at a much higher frequency.
I did the math yesterday with some of @woodford's calculations from other threads. A 30 minute EMU service to the CBD from Geelong would be achievable with 200km/h rolling stock and a new shorter, direct alignment into the CBD (Metro2) originating at Geelong with stops at North Geelong then Newport, Port Melbourne, Southbank & Flinders St. Any more stops and the 30 minute target isn't achievable.

This type of service would come at the cost of many billions of dollars.



No Government in our lifetime will ever make the sort of investment needed to run this type of service even if they make outlandish statements that they will. You simply can't justify it.

I think we all need to accept that the current service is what it is and move on.
SamTheMan79
I'd drop the stops between Newport and Flinders St and have it stop at Lara instead, but otherwise I agree it would cost billions, but if MT2 is already being built then the additional cost of building another twin tunnel would be less than if it was being built by itself. However, like CD9 we see the government can't think far enough ahead to do the sensible.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
If you do the maths, 200km/hr trains and track will have to work hard to save +10min as no way will you get 200km/h station to station. Yes its possible, Vienna certainly managed it (within 1km of main station you are +150km/h), but at significant cost and for much longer distance and more populated services at a much higher frequency.
I did the math yesterday with some of @woodford's calculations from other threads. A 30 minute EMU service to the CBD from Geelong would be achievable with 200km/h rolling stock and a new shorter, direct alignment into the CBD (Metro2) originating at Geelong with stops at North Geelong then Newport, Port Melbourne, Southbank & Flinders St. Any more stops and the 30 minute target isn't achievable.

This type of service would come at the cost of many billions of dollars.



No Government in our lifetime will ever make the sort of investment needed to run this type of service even if they make outlandish statements that they will. You simply can't justify it.

I think we all need to accept that the current service is what it is and move on.
I'd drop the stops between Newport and Flinders St and have it stop at Lara instead, but otherwise I agree it would cost billions, but if MT2 is already being built then the additional cost of building another twin tunnel would be less than if it was being built by itself. However, like CD9 we see the government can't think far enough ahead to do the sensible.
John.Z
Where does Flinders Street fit Into things ?

The Country rail terminal Is Southern Cross on Spencer Street.

Premium services to and from Geelong and Melbourne should be express with a stop all stations service following.

WCR used to run an Impressive express service between Geelong and Melbourne (vv) with their B, S and even R class locomotives.
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
If you do the maths, 200km/hr trains and track will have to work hard to save +10min as no way will you get 200km/h station to station. Yes its possible, Vienna certainly managed it (within 1km of main station you are +150km/h), but at significant cost and for much longer distance and more populated services at a much higher frequency.
I did the math yesterday with some of @woodford's calculations from other threads. A 30 minute EMU service to the CBD from Geelong would be achievable with 200km/h rolling stock and a new shorter, direct alignment into the CBD (Metro2) originating at Geelong with stops at North Geelong then Newport, Port Melbourne, Southbank & Flinders St. Any more stops and the 30 minute target isn't achievable.

This type of service would come at the cost of many billions of dollars.



No Government in our lifetime will ever make the sort of investment needed to run this type of service even if they make outlandish statements that they will. You simply can't justify it.

I think we all need to accept that the current service is what it is and move on.
I'd drop the stops between Newport and Flinders St and have it stop at Lara instead, but otherwise I agree it would cost billions, but if MT2 is already being built then the additional cost of building another twin tunnel would be less than if it was being built by itself. However, like CD9 we see the government can't think far enough ahead to do the sensible.
Where does Flinders Street fit Into things ?

The Country rail terminal Is Southern Cross on Spencer Street.

Premium services to and from Geelong and Melbourne should be express with a stop all stations service following.

WCR used to run an Impressive express service between Geelong and Melbourne (vv) with their B, S and even R class locomotives.
Nightfire
A Liberal/National Report finds half-hour rail service from Geelong to Melbourne would help counter population surge of an additional 3.8 million people by 2051.

I was simply giving an example of what could be done with items from the Network Development Plan.




Where does Flinders Street fit Into things - Metro2




The Country rail terminal Is Southern Cross on Spencer Street - Geelong line will hardly be "Country" by 2051

Premium services to and from Geelong and Melbourne should be express with a stop all stations service following - No argument here

WCR used to run an Impressive express service between Geelong and Melbourne (vv) with their B, S and even R class locomotives - Irrelevant 45+ years later in 2051.






  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
If you do the maths, 200km/hr trains and track will have to work hard to save +10min as no way will you get 200km/h station to station. Yes its possible, Vienna certainly managed it (within 1km of main station you are +150km/h), but at significant cost and for much longer distance and more populated services at a much higher frequency.
I did the math yesterday with some of @woodford's calculations from other threads. A 30 minute EMU service to the CBD from Geelong would be achievable with 200km/h rolling stock and a new shorter, direct alignment into the CBD (Metro2) originating at Geelong with stops at North Geelong then Newport, Port Melbourne, Southbank & Flinders St. Any more stops and the 30 minute target isn't achievable.

This type of service would come at the cost of many billions of dollars.



No Government in our lifetime will ever make the sort of investment needed to run this type of service even if they make outlandish statements that they will. You simply can't justify it.

I think we all need to accept that the current service is what it is and move on.
I'd drop the stops between Newport and Flinders St and have it stop at Lara instead, but otherwise I agree it would cost billions, but if MT2 is already being built then the additional cost of building another twin tunnel would be less than if it was being built by itself. However, like CD9 we see the government can't think far enough ahead to do the sensible.
Where does Flinders Street fit Into things ?

The Country rail terminal Is Southern Cross on Spencer Street.

Premium services to and from Geelong and Melbourne should be express with a stop all stations service following.

WCR used to run an Impressive express service between Geelong and Melbourne (vv) with their B, S and even R class locomotives.
Nightfire
Why on earth does Geelong need a Premium service to and from Melbourne?


What Geelong railway services need is the following:
  • Electrification
  • Train sets like interurban multiple units (IMU- same train runs on the Gold Coast Line) can travel at 130km/hr - no need for 200km/hr+ plus service to Geelong
  • Be include in the Melbourne fare system (ZONE 1 AND 2)
  • 20 mins apart in off-peak
  • Service should be as follow - Waurn Ponds stopping all stations to Tarneit and then express to Sunshine, then Footscray and stopping at Southern Cross
  John.Z Junior Train Controller

I believe that Geelong should be used as a first step in the re-arrangement of how we transport people around Melbourne. 2.5kV AC electrification, 200km/hr. Waurn Ponds to Werribee, then express to City. In the future you can add the following express lines:

*Warragul/Clyde SAS to Westall, express to City
*Belgrave/Lilydale SAS to Box Hill, express to City
*Baxter/Stony Point SAS to Moorabbin, express to City
*Ballarat SAS to Melton, express to City
*Bendigo SAS to Melbourne Airport, express to City

All of a sudden, we have 3 paths from the west and 3 paths from the east, and we can set up a Paris RER style of service from our most popular longer distance routes, separate them from our Metro style of service and target an effective way to transport people into and out of Melbourne.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I believe that Geelong should be used as a first step in the re-arrangement of how we transport people around Melbourne. 2.5kV AC electrification, 200km/hr. Waurn Ponds to Werribee, then express to City. In the future you can add the following express lines:

*Warragul/Clyde SAS to Westall, express to City
*Belgrave/Lilydale SAS to Box Hill, express to City
*Baxter/Stony Point SAS to Moorabbin, express to City
*Ballarat SAS to Melton, express to City
*Bendigo SAS to Melbourne Airport, express to City

All of a sudden, we have 3 paths from the west and 3 paths from the east, and we can set up a Paris RER style of service from our most popular longer distance routes, separate them from our Metro style of service and target an effective way to transport people into and out of Melbourne.
John.Z
Might make some sense if we knew what SAS and RER meant.
  John.Z Junior Train Controller

SAS is stopping all stations, it would be the only services between those stops

RER (Regional Express Network) is the name of the brand in Paris that runs semi-metro, semi-regionals services between the centre of Paris and the outskirts of the greater paris region.



For reference, the longest line on the RER is the D (green line) which is 190km end to end.
Waurn Ponds to Warragul is 184km
Bendigo to Belgrave is 206km (Obviously weight towards the north)
Ballarat to Stony Point is 193km (161km to Frankston)

The RER uses electric (and in some cases double deck) rolling stock and has limited stops within the area which is overlaps the Paris Metro with.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
SAS is stopping all stations, it would be the only services between those stops

RER (Regional Express Network) is the name of the brand in Paris that runs semi-metro, semi-regionals services between the centre of Paris and the outskirts of the greater paris region.



For reference, the longest line on the RER is the D (green line) which is 190km end to end.
Waurn Ponds to Warragul is 184km
Bendigo to Belgrave is 206km (Obviously weight towards the north)
Ballarat to Stony Point is 193km (161km to Frankston)

The RER uses electric (and in some cases double deck) rolling stock and has limited stops within the area which is overlaps the Paris Metro with.
John.Z
Thanks John Z
  stuA79 Beginner

The RRL Project should have delivered this something like this, but then again this is "DumbStraya", the land where multi billion dollar projects deliver almost nothing.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The RRL Project should have delivered this something like this, but then again this is "DumbStraya", the land where multi billion dollar projects deliver almost nothing.
stuA79

WE all know the RRL was castrated by the former government, however the August timetable, operating within the constraints of the RRL that we have I think goes some way towards addressing several issues with the existing timetable.

BTW, welcome to the forum stuA79.

Mike.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Given all the hoo haa about Geelong services and their lack of capacity for increasing traffic levels would the Geelong line not be the ideal route for double deck trains especially taking into account the limited (or ideally non existent on some services) stopping patterns and pressure for paths.

It won't be considered, of course, as someone will say they won't fit through the South Geelong tunnel which, I assume, is sacred like the bluestone bridges on the Bendigo line that resulted in the destruction of umpteen kilometres of double line.
  cabidass Train Controller

The government seems to be on point with keeping things unified. ie. all trains xtrapolis. All trains vlocity. All trains single deck.

Keeping everything similar has all sorts of benefits - from maintenance to cleaning and repair.

So while Geelong may be able to handle double-decker trains, the current government's ... train ... of thought is that having unique things for a separate line, doesn't make any rational nor economic sense.

And it does make sense. It doesn't always work. But it worked for the likes of the SEC back in the day. And all manner of things operate better when a unified governing set of standards are implemented.
  reubstar6 Locomotive Driver

I know this is kind of off topic but I thought Metro 2 was going via Newport, Fishermans Bend, Southern Cross, Flagstaff and Fitzroy before Clifton Hill. That's at least what the Network Development Plan stated (excluding Newport part, which was for later). I didn't realise Flinders Street and Southbank were part of it. Please, can someone provide relevant links that can give me updates. I'm genuinely interested. Thank you.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The government seems to be on point with keeping things unified. ie. all trains xtrapolis. All trains vlocity. All trains single deck.

Keeping everything similar has all sorts of benefits - from maintenance to cleaning and repair.

So while Geelong may be able to handle double-decker trains, the current government's ... train ... of thought is that having unique things for a separate line, doesn't make any rational nor economic sense.

And it does make sense. It doesn't always work. But it worked for the likes of the SEC back in the day. And all manner of things operate better when a unified governing set of standards are implemented.
cabidass
Not saying that double deck is necessarily the answer but the lowest common denominator in all things is not.
Mediocrity for ever.
  cabidass Train Controller

What are you getting that is the lowest common demoninator?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
What are you getting that is the lowest common demoninator?
cabidass
The same equipment, configuration, maintenance regime and operation is not necessarily the optimum arrangement for every service.

In Victoria the lowest common denominator seems to be 3 car Vlocitys regardless of the needs of specific services.

The foregoing is all very easy for Vline where from a rolling stock point of view the show can just about run itself.

The QANTAS fleet, for example, is predominately Boeing 737s and whilst they might be good for Melbourne - Adelaide how would you like to go to London on one. There are 'horses for courses' in the air, at sea and on rail but the Victorian standard seems to be identical horses regardless of the course.
  cabidass Train Controller

The same equipment, configuration, maintenance regime and operation is not necessarily the optimum arrangement for every service.
YM-Mundrabilla

Yes. I'd alluded to that. So what pray tell would be the optimum outcome then?

At the moment we're discussing the electrification of Geelong. Of which I presume will come with time once the west fills out a bit. We've already agreed that double-decker carriages are likely not it.

The rail network will be shortly filled with:

  • Sprinters
  • X'trapolis
  • High Capacity X'trapolis
  • Comeng
  • Vlocity
  • Long Haul Vlocity
  • N-class - H
  • N-class - N


How much more diversified do you think it needs to be?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Electrification doesn't have to mean metro. If Adelaide can put panto's onto a vlocity then why can't vline. Vline should convert all non metro lines to the north, west and south west to SG and electrify to Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo and Seymour.

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