Talgo proposal for 2hr Sydney-Canberra tilt train

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

How long does it totally legally take to drive say Canberra Railway station to Central station ? Googlemaps say 3hr 3min.

Bearing in mind where the train goes, for some the travel time had to have local travel to the main station added on in total time travelled - and that goes in favor of the car.

The trip would have to be very short to entice people onto the train. True you will get city center to city center people quite happt, but that does not keep the trains full, or 1/4 full.

I suppose they could slow down road traffic Smile

Regards,
David Head
dthead

From central that time sounds about right but with the orbital network (Unless you are on the northern beaches) it can be sub 3 hours for many parts of Sydney. For me in south western Sydney it can take not much longer then 2hours and 20-30 minutes depending how long it takes me to get out of liverpool.

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I should also note that the train loses all of it's time from south of Macarthur. The east hills line is good for getting the XPT and Xplorer in and out of Sydney in as little as 30 minutes.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

From Liverpool in south west Sydney it is easily 2 and a half hours to Canberra for me. I remember meeting some friends at Canberra station once and they took off in the early 7am train and I left at 9am and still beat them to Kingston station. No speeding fines and I drove to the legal limit and stopped for a break near Marulan and some food and drink. How are you going to slow down a 110km/h highway. Slowing traffic down in such a manner actually leads to increased fatalities due to fatigue.

Do not forget that Canberra station is not exactly in the city centre either. It is close to parliament house, but rail wouldn't actually get centre to centre traffic. I know vinelander likes his trains but in Canberra there is no local train service and you need a car to get around because buses are not that frequent or reliable.

Once I worked out with some others that in a race from NSW parliament house to parliament house in Canberra that taking a plane would win but that 50% of the planes journey time would be just the bus trip from Canberra airport to the finish at Parliament house.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
Based on the size of Canberra and combined road, rail, bus and plane if you get a upgraded rail service from Canberra Airport to Central via the Sydney airport down to 2.5hr or less you will fill a seated 6-8 car train every hour for most of the day. Quieter over lunch and evening.

Yes again I say CANBERRA Airport,  kill off Civic and redevelop it. The airport has all the facilities of a significant airport of its size and the LR is planned to eventually connect to it.

The faster Canberra train woyld also eliminate the need for the Goulburn services and hence an enhanced service in frequency and speed will pull more numbers from there as well.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Civic is the former station on the Newcastle rail line. The current Canberra railway station is Kingston.

Goulburn only gets one direct Southern highlands peak hour nsw trainlink intercity service to Sydney each way a day. Goulburn also gets a few southern highlands services to Campbelltown a day, the 3-4 Canberra services a day, the 2 XPT services a day and the once a week Griffith service. So what services are you going to cancel?

My only issue with your idea is that it would leave Queanbeyan without a rail service to Sydney and considering that is the NSW city in the area. I don't think your idea is workable from a NSW trains point of view. Fixing the track and even the alignment to run alongside the kings highway instead of following the border alignment should help reduce travel time significantly without the need to build an expensive new rail line to the airport.

If the operators of Canberra airport want to build such an alignment then they should put the money up for it and look at operating trains to Sydney themselves. The light rail is also proposed to go to Kingston as well as the airport so that takes care of that argument in any case.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Civic is the former station on the Newcastle rail line. The current Canberra railway station is Kingston.

Goulburn only gets one direct Southern highlands peak hour nsw trainlink intercity service to Sydney each way a day. Goulburn also gets a few southern highlands services to Campbelltown a day, the 3-4 Canberra services a day, the 2 XPT services a day and the once a week Griffith service. So what services are you going to cancel?

My only issue with your idea is that it would leave Queanbeyan without a rail service to Sydney and considering that is the NSW city in the area. I don't think your idea is workable from a NSW trains point of view. Fixing the track and even the alignment to run alongside the kings highway instead of following the border alignment should help reduce travel time significantly without the need to build an expensive new rail line to the airport.

If the operators of Canberra airport want to build such an alignment then they should put the money up for it and look at operating trains to Sydney themselves. The light rail is also proposed to go to Kingston as well as the airport so that takes care of that argument in any case.
simstrain
The present official route for the Canberra Sydney high speed rail shows an underground station below Ainslie Avenue adjacent to the shopping centre.

The post office in the shopping centre is called Civic Square to differentiate it from the Newcastle suburb.

From the station, the line would tunnel under Mt Ainslie, and follow the Majura Parkway up to the border, then follow Gundaroo Road to a junction located on a ne line a bit south of Gunning.

This puts the line adjacent to Canberra Airport at the point it enters the tunnel and it would be easy to extend the line to Canberra Airport, and building it to the airport first would save the cost of the tunnel and the underground station if a cheaper alternative were required.

Canberra Airport is actually about the same distance from the city centre as Kingston. Kingston is closer to Parliament House but I don't see Parliament house as a major destination for rail travellers, at least not until they have left their baggage at their accommodation.

Building that high speed line (just the branch to Canberra) would reduce the journey time to Goulburn to less than half an hour but would bypass Queanbeyan entirely.

There is a direct road from Queanbeyan to Canberra Airport which would allow passengers from Queanbeyan to drive there in about ten minutes more than driving to Queanbeyan Station which is a long way from Queanbeyan's CBD (maybe further than Kingston is from Civic.)





Peter
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Little question: can Talgo trains work equally well at top speed in both directions? Or do they need a triangle to present the engine always at the front?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Scoping a preliminary feasibility study
Little question: can Talgo trains work equally well at top speed in both directions? Or do they need a triangle to present the engine always at the front?
awsgc24
Talgo sets have a driving trailer/cab car at the non-loco end of the train, so yes they can run just as fast in either direction.
  Lockspike Train Controller

Civic is the former station on the Newcastle rail line. The current Canberra railway station is Kingston.
simstrain
Maybe so, but the commercial district at the Southern end of Northbourne Ave is named Civic. "Canberra City" has only become common usage in the last 3-4 decades.
RTT was correct in referring to Civic as the proposed terminus of a HSR branchline to Canberra.

Canberra Airport is a better (and cheaper) station location for either a medium or high speed line to Canberra.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Little question: can Talgo trains work equally well at top speed in both directions? Or do they need a triangle to present the engine always at the front?
Talgo sets have a driving trailer/cab car at the non-loco end of the train, so yes they can run just as fast in either direction.
LancedDendrite
Thank you; nice to know for sure.

GM-class locos only have basic controls at the "flat" end, and presumably cannot be driven fast in reverse driection.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
Civic is the former station on the Newcastle rail line. The current Canberra railway station is Kingston.

Goulburn only gets one direct Southern highlands peak hour nsw trainlink intercity service to Sydney each way a day. Goulburn also gets a few southern highlands services to Campbelltown a day, the 3-4 Canberra services a day, the 2 XPT services a day and the once a week Griffith service. So what services are you going to cancel?

My only issue with your idea is that it would leave Queanbeyan without a rail service to Sydney and considering that is the NSW city in the area. I don't think your idea is workable from a NSW trains point of view. Fixing the track and even the alignment to run alongside the kings highway instead of following the border alignment should help reduce travel time significantly without the need to build an expensive new rail line to the airport.

If the operators of Canberra airport want to build such an alignment then they should put the money up for it and look at operating trains to Sydney themselves. The light rail is also proposed to go to Kingston as well as the airport so that takes care of that argument in any case.
The present official route for the Canberra Sydney high speed rail shows an underground station below Ainslie Avenue adjacent to the shopping centre.

The post office in the shopping centre is called Civic Square to differentiate it from the Newcastle suburb.

From the station, the line would tunnel under Mt Ainslie, and follow the Majura Parkway up to the border, then follow Gundaroo Road to a junction located on a ne line a bit south of Gunning.

This puts the line adjacent to Canberra Airport at the point it enters the tunnel and it would be easy to extend the line to Canberra Airport, and building it to the airport first would save the cost of the tunnel and the underground station if a cheaper alternative were required.

Canberra Airport is actually about the same distance from the city centre as Kingston. Kingston is closer to Parliament House but I don't see Parliament house as a major destination for rail travellers, at least not until they have left their baggage at their accommodation.

Building that high speed line (just the branch to Canberra) would reduce the journey time to Goulburn to less than half an hour but would bypass Queanbeyan entirely.

There is a direct road from Queanbeyan to Canberra Airport which would allow passengers from Queanbeyan to drive there in about ten minutes more than driving to Queanbeyan Station which is a long way from Queanbeyan's CBD (maybe further than Kingston is from Civic.)





Peter
M636C
Ok lets call it Kingston to be clear, but yes Civic is a location near the current station that at times comes up.

There are four or so extended bus and trains a day beyond Moss Vale to Gouburn, obviously they would be cut/curtailed if an enhanced service to/from Canberra.

Going direct to say Kingston from Bungendore, you save around 6-7km and more favorable terrain and you basically go around the back of the airport on southern side. If you go to a station say under the main terminus of the airport you save around 10km although a tunnel is involved unless you come around from the north.

From the Airport you can enter more closely to Canberra if there is really a need fairly easily and this is the question. Yes you will get closer to the centre of Canberra but closer to what? Still too far to walk to 99% of the greater city of Canberra which is over 30km across and mostly a low density city with island communities. I doubt there is an ideal location where this is resolved at all. Getting next to a Light Rail station is probably as good as its going to get.

Now I know Sims has this love affair with this concept that he reads my comment on building the line to the airport and see's "lets do this for Canberra Airport's sake", but that's not what I proposed it for. If you are going to spend $1B or more upgrading the line to Sydney so much that you are going to run a reasonable train every 1hr or 2hr at the most, a shed in a park in the southern end of Canberra is not the destination. Right now most users are OAP, welfare, students, a few locals along the line and the odd train buff and tourist for which the current arrangement is "OK".

If you are going to be pulling people out of plans and cars in large numbers, from a few hundred an hour in peak every 2hr in off-peak, you are getting a different level of clientele. Additionally by the time its done the Light Rail will be at the airport. The Airport has far more than Kingston will ever offer.  More bus services, LR, car parks, food, more taxi,  hire car, hotel transfers, connection to plane etc etc.

As for Queenabeyane, yes cutting the train down there will have some effect but not much. Again how many use the service now? We are building MSR to attract a few thousand users a day, targeting more business, political and tourists, the NSW govt wont' fund this upgrade on its own at all, it will be funded by Fed/ACT govt especially as the bulk of the route to Sydney is on Fed funded tracks. What the few NSW voters down that way loose in local proximity they gain in speed on the train so overall no loss and probably only more to gain. The current service crawls from Kingtston to Queen'ie and then runs straight into significant terrain, it won't be easy to fix and will ultimately cost travel time. Run the LR down to Queen'ie from the airport for a fraction of the cost and that put them back in their box and keep them quiet.
  apw5910 Chief Train Controller

Location: Location: Location.
You forget that Queanbeyan is the "capital" of a very swinging federal seat, it is THE "bellwether" seat in most federal elections. That counts a lot more than sensible routing of rail tracks by mere topography.
  M636C Minister for Railways

You forget that Queanbeyan is the "capital" of a very swinging federal seat, it is THE "bellwether" seat in most federal elections. That counts a lot more than sensible routing of rail tracks by mere topography.
apw5910
One advantage of using Canberra Airport is that a relatively clear path exists to extend a high speed line to Queanbeyan.

I can't imagine that any operator would want to run trains to Queanbeyan but as you imply, it could become a condition of Federal Funding, particularly if the announcement were to be made just prior to a Federal Election.

Just look at the Defence Headquarters Joint Operational Command, which has its western fence along the rail line just so it could be in the Eden Monaro electorate. The only road access is via a rail overbridge into the ACT with no direct connection to anywhere in Eden Monaro. But the money was spent in NSW in a marginal electorate (except for quite a bit on road upgrading in the ACT).

Peter
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
You forget that Queanbeyan is the "capital" of a very swinging federal seat, it is THE "bellwether" seat in most federal elections. That counts a lot more than sensible routing of rail tracks by mere topography.
One advantage of using Canberra Airport is that a relatively clear path exists to extend a high speed line to Queanbeyan.

I can't imagine that any operator would want to run trains to Queanbeyan but as you imply, it could become a condition of Federal Funding, particularly if the announcement were to be made just prior to a Federal Election.

Just look at the Defence Headquarters Joint Operational Command, which has its western fence along the rail line just so it could be in the Eden Monaro electorate. The only road access is via a rail overbridge into the ACT with no direct connection to anywhere in Eden Monaro. But the money was spent in NSW in a marginal electorate (except for quite a bit on road upgrading in the ACT).

Peter
M636C
I agree it could be an influence however there are other factors at play and as M636C indicates there are ways to appease the peasants by throwing the peanuts at the right angle to make it look like gold in the sun.

To go via Quean'ie will add significant cost and/or add significant time, not just because its 5-10km longer, but because the terrain is far more of a challenge, so you spend the money or time in travel. Also drops the travelling public in a park in the southern end of Canberra. This all makes the project less viable overall. The extra cost to me would be in the billion dollar mark looking the terrain on Google Maps and from what I remember on the train.

So the train will run to the airport, direct, I think this would be a done deal. Now the politics comes into play. First of all how many of these swing voters in Quean'ie actually give a F__ about the loss of a train they rarely or never used and may prefer a train that gets to Sydney in less than half the time, but they now have a 15min extra drive to get to the station.

Options
- 1) Upgrade a road
- 2) Build/major upgrade a school or hospital
- 3) Extend the light rail down the old alignment

Any or all of the above could actually be cheaper than running the train via Quean'ie to a useless destination such as Kingston that is likely to heavily compromise the project.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

M636 we aren't talking about the vhst in here. We are talking about talgo making a 2 hour journey with the existing line. The VHST is a different conversation all together.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Maybe so, but the commercial district at the Southern end of Northbourne Ave is named Civic. "Canberra City" has only become common usage in the last 3-4 decades.
RTT was correct in referring to Civic as the proposed terminus of a HSR branchline to Canberra.

Canberra Airport is a better (and cheaper) station location for either a medium or high speed line to Canberra.
Lockspike

Is their a rail station called Civic in Canberra already that I don't know about? 3-4 decades is a long time and since I am only 41 sorry if I did not know about that.

Vhst is never going to happen for a start and any branch off the current line is most likely only going to the airport with a minor extension to Kingston for terminating and maintenance by NSW trains. Any modification of the current line is not going to be in a tunnel under the Canberra CBD. This however will adversely affect Queanbeyan and is highly likely to be an unpopular with voters.

While 2 hours might be pushing it. Fixing the current line to Canberra to allow faster speeds and a new alignment along the kings highway should allow at least a 30-40 minute improvement in travel time.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

As for you RTT. Kingston has plenty of scope to be expanded into a proper terminus. Regardless of whether the train comes from Queanbeyan, Canberra airport or both. Light rail in Canberra is also proposed to go to Fyshwick via Kingston.

As for the majority of the route being on federally funded tracks you are mistaken again. The Goulburn to Canberra branch is under the control of John Holland Rail as part of the CRN. The ARTC has a lease for the main south line from Macarthur but most of this line was upgraded by the NSW state government and barely any federal money if any has been spent on it since the ARTC makes money on the line being the main freight route between Sydney and Melbourne.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
As for you RTT. Kingston has plenty of scope to be expanded into a proper terminus. Regardless of whether the train comes from Queanbeyan, Canberra airport or both. Light rail in Canberra is also proposed to go to Fyshwick via Kingston.

As for the majority of the route being on federally funded tracks you are mistaken again. The Goulburn to Canberra branch is under the control of John Holland Rail as part of the CRN. The ARTC has a lease for the main south line from Macarthur but most of this line was upgraded by the NSW state government and barely any federal money if any has been spent on it since the ARTC makes money on the line being the main freight route between Sydney and Melbourne.
simstrain

Re Sydney Trains, ARTC and CRN, here are the distance markers

Central-Macarthur 0 - 56.58 (56.58, 17.2%)
Macarthur-Joppa  56.58 - 230.49 (173.91, 52.8%)
Joppa-Kingston  230.49 - 329.16 (98.67, 30.0%)

Does anyone have the average speeds for these sectors?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Central to Campbelltown is 36 minutes and in an xpt according to nsw trainlink timetable and that covers 48km's.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
As for you RTT. Kingston has plenty of scope to be expanded into a proper terminus. Regardless of whether the train comes from Queanbeyan, Canberra airport or both. Light rail in Canberra is also proposed to go to Fyshwick via Kingston.

As for the majority of the route being on federally funded tracks you are mistaken again. The Goulburn to Canberra branch is under the control of John Holland Rail as part of the CRN. The ARTC has a lease for the main south line from Macarthur but most of this line was upgraded by the NSW state government and barely any federal money if any has been spent on it since the ARTC makes money on the line being the main freight route between Sydney and Melbourne.

Re Sydney Trains, ARTC and CRN, here are the distance markers

Central-Macarthur 0 - 56.58 (56.58, 17.2%)
Macarthur-Joppa  56.58 - 230.49 (173.91, 52.8%)
Joppa-Kingston  230.49 - 329.16 (98.67, 30.0%)

Does anyone have the average speeds for these sectors?
james.au
I did the whole line breakdown for the XPL sometime ago in another thread and what would happen if you increased the average speed for station to station for a train averaging 150km/hr allowing 60-90sec for each station stop and on an improved alignment not exceeding 105% of the crow flys.

I'll dig it up or recalculate its not complicated.

The current corridor to Caneberra from the mainline is not bad for the first half but gets dragged into the mud beyond Bungendore, hence why I promote rebuilding from the ground up on flat land more direct. The current almost 1.5hr should be 45min realistically. Thats an average 135km/hr Goulburn to Canberra station, so 40min isn't that far off achievable either which is 150km/h.

Rethinking some of the comments of the SuperVoyergers with their by-modal power supply. Perhaps this is where it could work. The mainline will be protected from low height O/H due to the potential future option of double stacking (yes it will happen one day Sims). So you either go for a higher height O/H or bi-modal and then back on Canberra branch install O/H.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
As for you RTT. Kingston has plenty of scope to be expanded into a proper terminus. Regardless of whether the train comes from Queanbeyan, Canberra airport or both. Light rail in Canberra is also proposed to go to Fyshwick via Kingston.

As for the majority of the route being on federally funded tracks you are mistaken again. The Goulburn to Canberra branch is under the control of John Holland Rail as part of the CRN. The ARTC has a lease for the main south line from Macarthur but most of this line was upgraded by the NSW state government and barely any federal money if any has been spent on it since the ARTC makes money on the line being the main freight route between Sydney and Melbourne.

You want to spend money building a "proper" terminus in a park in the southern end of Canberra for a few people in Queanbyan over just building a simple single track platform at Canberra airport with escalators to all the mod cons that you could hope to have and more in your park.

I am not mistaken, the feds control the mainline south of the O/H and the Canberra branch is in control of the state. I never said anything else. I did say the mainline which is funded by the feds will need a significant upgrade should this proposal get up to be viable. Who will pay for this the feds.

This is a proposal that if it was to fly would need tri govt funding as why bother if the others won't. ACT, NSW and the Feds. Likely however that the feds would take over the Canberra branch both new and old and thus simplify the entire project. ACT would probably fund the accelerated extension of the tram and extension down to the border to keep the Quean'ies happy along with their new school and hospital extension.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The mainline from Macarthur to Moss vale was/is in good condition since it was part of the cityrail intercity network before ARTC takeover and got a proper concrete sleeper job done in the 90's and not the hatch job that the ARTC did to the rest of the main south.

Kingston is not in the south of Canberra it is a kilometre from the centre of Canberra which is parliament house. When people visit Canberra they want to visit the places that are within a short distance of Kingston. Canberra Airport is actually closer to Queanbeyan then it is to the Canberra CBD. The railway station actually has one of the most frequent bus services (the 830 and 833) that connects it frequently to the city centre and Queanbeyan via parliament house.

Even if the airport built it's own rail line to the airport from the existing line, whose trains are they going to use? The feds have no idea when it comes to passenger rail and the vhst is a fairytale. The ACT Government doesn't have money to run a loss making railway operation. Is the airport going to build and run a private train to / from Central station?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I did the whole line breakdown for the XPL sometime ago in another thread and what would happen if you increased the average speed for station to station for a train averaging 150km/hr allowing 60-90sec for each station stop and on an improved alignment not exceeding 105% of the crow flys.
RTT_Rules

One problem is that the XPL's top speed is only 145km/h.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
I did the whole line breakdown for the XPL sometime ago in another thread and what would happen if you increased the average speed for station to station for a train averaging 150km/hr allowing 60-90sec for each station stop and on an improved alignment not exceeding 105% of the crow flys.

One problem is that the XPL's top speed is only 145km/h.
simstrain
If you are going to spend $1-2B upgrading the track to 160-200km/hr running with the aim to increase ridership significantly ie by a factor of 10 as a minimum. Buying some new rolling stock isn't going to break the budget especially when a 6 car train set costs around $10m a piece. This was the basis for the average speeds, I wasn't even targetting 200km/hr rolling stock, simply 160km/h
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
The mainline from Macarthur to Moss vale was/is in good condition since it was part of the cityrail intercity network before ARTC takeover and got a proper concrete sleeper job done in the 90's and not the hatch job that the ARTC did to the rest of the main south.

Kingston is not in the south of Canberra it is a kilometre from the centre of Canberra which is parliament house. When people visit Canberra they want to visit the places that are within a short distance of Kingston. Canberra Airport is actually closer to Queanbeyan then it is to the Canberra CBD. The railway station actually has one of the most frequent bus services (the 830 and 833) that connects it frequently to the city centre and Queanbeyan via parliament house.

Even if the airport built it's own rail line to the airport from the existing line, whose trains are they going to use? The feds have no idea when it comes to passenger rail and the vhst is a fairytale. The ACT Government doesn't have money to run a loss making railway operation. Is the airport going to build and run a private train to / from Central station?
simstrain
While Railcorp may have maintained the commuter networks to some reasonable degree of standard, it is well known that under Railcorp and NSW govt the interstate lines were run into the ground. Not everything can be fixed to a high standard with the allocated budget and yes with the aid of hindsight the ARTC and feds would have likely done the Vic NE differently and no one predicted record flooding.

No one arrives by plane and/or train as a tourist or business and runs up to parliament house. Things like hotels usually come first and often the hire car before that.

I can just imagine a business trip to Canberra running out from Kingston station and yelling, "damn just missed the 833". Please once and for all, lets get real. I travel, for work and pleasure alot. A station with buggerall facilities in a park is not going to cut it if you want rail to be taken seriously. You want rail to be successful, provide the facilities travelers expect, taxis, hire cars, hotel desks, buses to anywhere, food, car parks, connections etc. All this exists now in one place in Canberra, The Airport!

And please drop the fetish about The Airport building the line, only you are talking about this, no one else. It won't happen, we all know it so move on. The only reason that Can Airport raised the option of building a HST terminal (not train) at the airport was to get on the band wagon because if by some chance it actually happens, this is the only airport in Australia that will suffer significant loss of patronage, about 40% being Sydney - Canberra - Sydney and it would probably loose at least half. Canberra  airport is already suffering loss of users having peaked at 3.3m in 2009-10 and been dropping ever since down to 2.8m for the year recently.

Even if the MSR train is as popular as we hope it may be, we are still talking a few hourly services in peak and maybe 2hrly services during day and evening. The private services that feed off the airport traffic will offer better services if they can do it from one shop, not two. Its simply not big enough numbers.

Location is only mildy relevant as the city while 30km across, is not slow to get around.

The NSW govt isn't going to fund this on their own and the feds are in control of 50% of the track route and have a vested interest for interstate travel. It will only ever get up for this sort of multi billion dollar upgrade if the two and likely 3 govts fund together.   If you say it won't happen (which I don't disagree), why bother arguing this. This whole thread is hypothetical.

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