Speed passing signal at Red according to rules

 
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
What speed is permitted in the various states when passing a red signal according to the rules?

In NSW and VIC, for electric trains at list, this is called "tripping past", as the signals are fitted with "train trip stops."

Accidents can and do occur if the train driver fails to observe the "trip past" speed limits.


"Signals Past at Danger" or "SPAD" are not quite the same thing, as these apply to going past a red signal WITHOUT authority.

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  theanimal Deputy Commissioner

What speed is permitted in the various states when passing a red signal according to the rules?

In NSW and VIC, for electric trains at list, this is called "tripping past", as the signals are fitted with "train trip stops."

Accidents can and do occur if the train driver fails to observe the "trip past" speed limits.


"Signals Past at Danger" or "SPAD" are not quite the same thing, as these apply to going past a red signal WITHOUT authority.
awsgc24


in NSW Sydney Trains safeworking rules there is no mention of "tripping past" signals, NSG 608 is titled PASSING SIGNALS AT STOP, a read is suggested, there is a distinction between an Absolute signal versus a Permissive signal.

Not sure that the casual rail fan will understand the differences, what are you trying to find out?
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
I've never 'tripped past' a signal in NSW, nor heard it referred to as such beyond suburban driver's, it certainly isn't a universal state-wide term...Nor are the majority of signals beyond the metropolitan area fitted with train stops.

Anyways...
In NSW ARTC/RailCorp/JHN territory:
Speed beyond an Absolute Signal = Track speed based on information from the NCO
Speed beyond an Permissive Signal = Restricted speed, defined as a speed at which you can stop short of any obstruction. Great fun when you  end up arguing with Middle Hunter Control because you've refused to move your loaded coal train past an auto in the fog. Rolling Eyes
  gordon_s1942 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
When I have had to warn a Driver of a possible Signal Failure, particularly in one instance where the signal was a Tonnage Signal, I have given the Driver the option of passing it at STOP or stopping and ringing up the Signal Box ahead.
I always told the Driver what time the last Train left and if possible that it had arrived 'Complete' at the next Signal Box.
There was also a Tunnel in the section which added to the instructions regarding passing of Signals at Stop.
I had one occasion where the Fireman was sent to walk through the Tunnel to inspect the line but he took so long, the Driver went looking for him but somehow they passed one another !!!
It was late at night but to walk past one another ???

I have seen a Driver 'Trip' past a defective signal on a single decker Interurban.
He moved the Train forward at barely a walking pace until the lever hit the Trip and released the Air.
He then did what he had to do in the cab before resetting the Trip lever and proceeding on once the Air was back.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
I always told the Driver what time the last Train left and if possible that it had arrived 'Complete' at the next Signal Box.
gordon_s1942
That is a very good confidence builder for the following train.

In the olden days, many track circuits between signalboxes weren't indicated to anywhere, leaving the train in "dark territory."

Even the Glenbrook accident of c1980 was like this.

These days, with cheaper telemetry systems, most if not all track circuits are indicated.

Many stations, such as Chatwood and Gordon, have little kiosks visible to both staff and passengers, with a illuminated diagram showing where all trains are including their run number. If the train is running late, one or more of the characters in the run number is coloured red, so that you can easily tell how late it is.
  gordon_s1942 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
Advising a Driver to pass a signal at stop was never taken lightly. If the Train was approaching me and a signal in the section was at Stop, My permission to pass said signal would be based on whether there was a  Train ahead or the Section was clear.
Under NO circumstances would I EVER advise a Driver to proceed if there was a Train Ahead and less that 15 minutes had passed since I may have authorised it to pass that Signal at Stop.
I would also advise the Driver/Fireman that if they did NOT proceed or stopped in the section ahead for any reason, they were to IMMEDIATELY protect their Train in the Rear as another could be following after at least15 minutes had passed.
This method of working would NOT be used if more than one signal in the section had failed, then we would use Block Working between the Signal Box's, slower but safer.
Due to persistent failure of the Signal Telephones for the departing direction, the Drivers would ring us regarding any signal problems  and thats when you had to be extra careful passing on info from the other Signal box.
  nswtrains Deputy Commissioner

I always told the Driver what time the last Train left and if possible that it had arrived 'Complete' at the next Signal Box.
That is a very good confidence builder for the following train.

In the olden days, many track circuits between signalboxes weren't indicated to anywhere, leaving the train in "dark territory."

Even the Glenbrook accident of c1980 was like this.

These days, with cheaper telemetry systems, most if not all track circuits are indicated.

Many stations, such as Chatwood and Gordon, have little kiosks visible to both staff and passengers, with a illuminated diagram showing where all trains are including their run number. If the train is running late, one or more of the characters in the run number is coloured red, so that you can easily tell how late it is.
awsgc24
You are referring to the Train Location System which is an information only system located on most stations in NSW as well as on I Phone 7 models used by most employees. It is not a signalling system and should not be relied upon as such as it can be inaccurate at times.
  MILW Junior Train Controller

Location: Earth
Regarding NSW and rule NSG608, while trains may run at up to line speed after passing absolute signals at stop under the authority of the network control officer, might I suggest that this is not a good idea if the line speed is high. Restricted speed - i.e. a speed allowing the train to be stopped short of any obstruction within sighting distance - is always a better idea, even if the network control officer (signaller/network controller) has given assurances that the line is clear.

In most cases, signallers will not recommend speeds when using rule NSG608 and it is therefore at the driver's discretion, but any attempt by Operations personnel to minimize delays in the event of signal failures by encouraging more than restricted speed should be disregarded.

The risk is that the network control officer, who may control a large area and be working under the pressure of a heavy workload, may make a mistake or give misleading information that instils the driver with a false sense of security about the condition of the line ahead. It's better to be safe, and perhaps a few minutes late, than sorry, lest we have a repeat of Glenbrook.

Also, in automatic sections, there is some question of whether their indications in signal boxes should be relied upon for safety-critical purposes owing to the potential of the track diagrams to freeze or suffer telemetry failure.

My opinion only.

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