Port Adelaide to get new train station served by 1km rail spur

 
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I did not say it would be done the tram that is but it could be done. Taking the tram down Port Road is a no go now account of the T2T project, a tram extension and bridge has not been allowed for at South Road/Port Road intersection. South Road is going to be lowered under Port Road so a bridge would be needed to jump the gap there! And getting from the current Entertainment centre onto the rail alignment at Bowden would be very costly account of all the business premises that would need to be bought and demolished now.

That is why I put up this idea. It might not be done soon though but will it eventually get done though. There have been several plans put forward to extend the Tram line like this though and my idea just combines bits and pieces from all of them. I too hope that a tram line is not put into replace the current rail service as when the football is on at Adelaide Oval it would never cope with the football crowds, the trains are jam packed now when it happens.

It does seem that the current Govt here has something like this planned but is keeping it all close to their chest. Do it one step at a time maybe and the public will not notice until it is done, well that could well be the thinking here. I hope not though as has been said the train is a lot better and quicker especially for huge crowds!

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  cpdbear Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Probably the important thing to note with the Adelaide Now article is that these figures are the margin after the 2012 election, whilst the figures I quoted in my post above (60.6% / 39.4%) are for the most recent election in 2014 and from the AEC website.
Pressman
It should be noted that the seat of Lee used to actually cover the areas around Port Adelaide (Birkenhead, Peterhead, Exeter). The seat of Port Adelaide use to only just take in Port Adelaide and included suburbs like Mawson Lakes. The current member for Lee is the Minister of Transport who hold the seat with 54%.

Under the 2016 redistribution Port Adelaide has taken over some of Lee suburbs, expanding into Birkenhead, Semaphore, Exter and Lee has been cut back to only included Semaphore Park (boundary is Bower Road and Old Port Road). The predicted swing for Lee to change is 2.6% and Port Adelaide 12.6% (based on projected figures), this likely makes the Minister Stephen Mulligan a little nervous as his seat has become more marginal. The seat of Lee is now the third most marginal Labor seat in SA (after Hurle Vale 1.7% and King 1.4%).

The announcement was really the only major Transport thing for the Outer Western suburbs, as they missed out on electrification and the nearest road project is Torrens to Torrens.
  Halo Chief Train Controller

This is the problem with SA trains.

How often do you see them running at 60kmph between stations. Unless you go out to Gawler or Lonsdale, the answer is never.

Our trains are the closest transport we have that could be called mass transit. The idea is that you drive, use a bus, or other minor form of transport to get to the train. Then do the same in the city (if that's your destination). That's why the Adelaide Railway Station isn't located in Victoria Square. You take a tram to you final destination.

Our stations are far too close together. Trains barely get to 50kmph before hitting the brakes for the next station 1km away.

Yes they are convenient, but are slow as crap and would be better suited for busses on all lines. (said the train-tram fan in a Dissapointed voice).
  fairmont1998 Beginner


Our stations are far too close together. Trains barely get to 50kmph before hitting the brakes for the next station 1km away.
Halo
Slight exaggeration. The trains go well over 50kph between stations on the Port line.
  normangerman Junior Train Controller

Most trains between Mile End and Adelaide Showground travel at 100km/h
  ARG706 Chief Commissioner

Location: SA
I think if freights went that fast, there would be a lot of derailments. Isn't the limit for the pox boxes 90kph?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".

Halo Our stations are far too close together. Trains barely get to 50kmph before hitting the brakes for the next station 1km away.
For you they might be too close together now, but if every other station was removed tomorrow because they were all to close together how are you going to get on if your legs give out at an early age or when you get older and have to walk a kilometre or maybe more in some cases to use a train. You will most likely use your car if you have one and so you would simply drive passengers away from using the trains.

It is alright to say things like this though but you have to stop and think of the future for yourself and those that have disabilities, old age people, those that cannot walk great distances through old age or if a bit younger due to medical conditions etc. Most of these will affect you sooner or later in life and then you will be the one complaining about not having a railway station close and handy to where you live. You cannot have it both ways though it is one or the other here.

Major surgery like I have just undergone warn you against excessive exercise till you have fully recuperated from the operation and as I do not own a car PT is how I get around because the train station is a simple 3 minute walk away from where I live. If I have to walk a kilometre or more to catch the train my doctor would have fits!
  62430 Chief Train Controller

Location: Metro Adelaide

Slight exaggeration. The trains go well over 50kph between stations on the Port line.
fairmont1998
eg speed restriction at Brompton Gasworks captured today
by Alex C, on Flickr
  62440 Deputy Commissioner

There is no doubt a new rail station at Edinburgh/Direk is a better use of government $$$ than the proposed station at Port Adelaide. Inner suburbs should have lower priority than outer suburbs in regards to public transport. This is simply bad planning and should be cancelled.
So that includes the 3km of track required or do they equip a few railcars with gauge changing bogies and pay ARTC access fees each trip?
Pressman
The main line is due to be diverted along the northern link, when that happens the section of line to Bolivar Rd can be regauged. But beyond that, no chance. Only one LX in this section at Bagster Rd
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: On a freight train to crazy town
The main line is due to be diverted along the northern link, ......
62440
Not any more
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
The main line is due to be diverted along the northern link, ......
Not any more
bingley hall
Yes, any notion of including a rail link in the northern connector project was dashed by a certain federal pollie who would only grant funding for the road project as long as it DID NOT include any rail. Rolling Eyes
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The main line is due to be diverted along the northern link, when that happens the section of line to Bolivar Rd can be regauged. But beyond that, no chance. Only one LX in this section at Bagster Rd
62440
The proposal for a railway didn't make it into the final version of the Northern Connector project in any form other than provision of extra space on the western side of the motorway.

Nobody else appears to be that eager for it, otherwise they would have a shovel-ready plan and business case for it and would have applied for it to be funded in the run up to each federal budget. The Abbott Government may have killed it, but he was just one voice in the choir that also included the ALP state government and the industry.

In the event that it is replaced by the Northern Connector and abandoned by ARTC, I doubt there's much chance of the current ARTC corridor beyond Salisbury being used for passenger service if it can only be extended for four kilometres and not to other developments further out. The most useful passenger application in the event that ARTC abandon the line would probably be to rebuild the corridor from Dry Creek to Salisbury with a central express passing lane to allow Gawler trains to run fast from Adelaide to Elizabeth (stopping at only Mawson Lakes and Salisbury) and seamlessly overtake all stations Adelaide-Elizabeth services.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I doubt any replacing of existing rail lines here is going to be done anytime soon though, some projects that help road traffic flows maybe like the currently building dive in the parklands or Oaklands for example but the rail component is really only a small part of improving road traffic flows more than anything else.

The dive for instance will stop Hawker Street and Ovingham (Torrens Road) level crossings being blocked while SG freights wait for a suburban service to clear the diamonds in the parklands. It will of course give standard gauge services a non stop run but that is what is wanted to stop road traffic holdups. Also it will remove the current Park Terrace level crossing at Bowden as well as few other minor level crossings there as well. Again to ease road traffic holdups!

But deviating long sections of existing rail track anywhere just because it seems like a good idea at the time, I think would be pie in the sky type of things really because it might save a kilometre or more on the trip but what is that compared to the distance the train has run say coming from Perth, Darwin or Sydney, it is a drop in the ocean really. A couple of kilometres saved is not going to save much in the long run though!
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The idea behind Northern Connector rail was not about saving distance (a couple of the options would have been a touch longer and all options much curvier than the present route) but about taking freight trains out of the northern suburbs. The Ghan incident at Park Terrace is still very raw for a lot of people, and the delays on Park Terrace very real for even more people every day.

The problem with that theory is that it has an extremely poor bang:buck ratio. Only six road level crossings would be bypassed, but the vast majority of the benefit could be gained by simpler grade separations at just Kings Road (27,800 vehicles/day) and Park Terrace (18,600) rather than a massive project with a greenfield railway and 4-8 grade separations.

Northern Connector rail would be nice to do if we didn't have anything else to spend the money on, but ultimately it is a solution looking for a problem. No wonder it only made sense during the stimulus package years and nobody has bothered resurrecting it since then.

But this is all way off track for this thread. What we should really be talking about is what will be done with the current rail corridor through Port Adelaide once the service is truncated to the new station and the land handed over the John Rau's buddies at a tenth of its real value.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
For you they might be too close together now, but if every other station was removed tomorrow because they were all to close together how are you going to get on if your legs give out at an early age or when you get older and have to walk a kilometre or maybe more in some cases to use a train. You will most likely use your car if you have one and so you would simply drive passengers away from using the trains.

It is alright to say things like this though but you have to stop and think of the future for yourself and those that have disabilities, old age people, those that cannot walk great distances through old age or if a bit younger due to medical conditions etc. Most of these will affect you sooner or later in life and then you will be the one complaining about not having a railway station close and handy to where you live. You cannot have it both ways though it is one or the other here.

Major surgery like I have just undergone warn you against excessive exercise till you have fully recuperated from the operation and as I do not own a car PT is how I get around because the train station is a simple 3 minute walk away from where I live. If I have to walk a kilometre or more to catch the train my doctor would have fits!
David Peters
1km spacing is ok and typical in Sydney and Brisbane also but yes if the line was built today they would be 2km or more apart unless closer to the city. After +15 stations on an all stopper, every single day, even this pro-rail users would likely look at other options.

The way to manage it is running a 2 tiered timetable to reduce the number of stops. The Gawler line doesn't do this but the proposed electrification extension would likely trigger this.  The southern line uses Tonsley to do this concept.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The idea behind Northern Connector rail was not about saving distance (a couple of the options would have been a touch longer and all options much curvier than the present route) but about taking freight trains out of the northern suburbs. The Ghan incident at Park Terrace is still very raw for a lot of people, and the delays on Park Terrace very real for even more people every day.

The problem with that theory is that it has an extremely poor bang:buck ratio. Only six road level crossings would be bypassed, but the vast majority of the benefit could be gained by simpler grade separations at just Kings Road (27,800 vehicles/day) and Park Terrace (18,600) rather than a massive project with a greenfield railway and 4-8 grade separations.

Northern Connector rail would be nice to do if we didn't have anything else to spend the money on, but ultimately it is a solution looking for a problem. No wonder it only made sense during the stimulus package years and nobody has bothered resurrecting it since then.

But this is all way off track for this thread. What we should really be talking about is what will be done with the current rail corridor through Port Adelaide once the service is truncated to the new station and the land handed over the John Rau's buddies at a tenth of its real value.
justapassenger
The current track is staying to Outer Harbor, just that a new 1km track and new station might be built to get people closer (?) to the Port Adelaide CBD and future development in the Port. But one has to ask though will this development ever go ahead though, it could be 20, 30 or 40 years or more before it gets done and in the meantime that 1Km of track and the station just become another white elephant that the current Govt has squandered money on.

I have to agree with the part about a tenth of the real value though. Most of the land there in that development is privately owned though now so some company that has to shift because the govt want the land is going to ask top dollar for it, even if it is bought only as sections of it are put up for sale at any one time. I personally think though that who ever thought up a housing development there was honestly smoking or using something way to strong for them. It could be done I suppose, but you have to look at that area and think would I really want to live there, not all buildings will be vacated etc in one go so in the mean time you have to put up with a mix of industry and housing all in the same place for a while and it will not work though as it has been done in other places and failed miserably.

Personally I think it is just the Labor Party trying to win votes in Port Adelaide because they are scared that it may not now be the safe seat that it used to be. By doing this it makes it look like Labor are actually doing something for Port Adelaide, but in reality all they care about are votes on election day!
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I agree with you David about the Port, it's never really changed and I don't understand what they think the place will become. Like the apartments on the "New Port" side, all they've done is stack the waterside with some pretty ordinary looking apartments like they do all over Melbourne. Do they really think that's going to change the character of the entire area? It's still pretty industrial with Adelaide Brighton etc still within sight.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I agree with you David about the Port, it's never really changed and I don't understand what they think the place will become. Like the apartments on the "New Port" side, all they've done is stack the waterside with some pretty ordinary looking apartments like they do all over Melbourne. Do they really think that's going to change the character of the entire area? It's still pretty industrial with Adelaide Brighton etc still within sight.
don_dunstan
Not only that don_dunstan but it has a stigma attached to it as well you mention the words Port Adelaide and everyone immediately thinks of a rundown industrial area and really that is not far of the mark either! It has always had this stigma though and I doubt it could ever really be changed no matter what they do there!
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Not only that don_dunstan but it has a stigma attached to it as well you mention the words Port Adelaide and everyone immediately thinks of a rundown industrial area and really that is not far of the mark either! It has always had this stigma though and I doubt it could ever really be changed no matter what they do there!
David Peters
There's an unfortunate vast gap between Fremantle and Port Adelaide, it shouldn't be that way but it is. They're also trying to sell off bits to developers too cheaply in an effort to try and gentrify it with up-market apartments; there has to be something other than nice historical buildings. And I think they're going the wrong way by trying to close the Sunday market, all that will do is hive off land to developers too cheaply (yet again).
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Not only that don_dunstan but it has a stigma attached to it as well you mention the words Port Adelaide and everyone immediately thinks of a rundown industrial area and really that is not far of the mark either! It has always had this stigma though and I doubt it could ever really be changed no matter what they do there!
There's an unfortunate vast gap between Fremantle and Port Adelaide, it shouldn't be that way but it is. They're also trying to sell off bits to developers too cheaply in an effort to try and gentrify it with up-market apartments; there has to be something other than nice historical buildings. And I think they're going the wrong way by trying to close the Sunday market, all that will do is hive off land to developers too cheaply (yet again).
don_dunstan
It should be noted that it is the developer who wants to close the market and demolish No. 1 Shed.

Having seen port redevelopments overseas I fail to be convinced that removing any maritime activity from the inner harbour upstream from the bridges will actually create the vibrancy that is sought.

I have a photo of a boat yard at North Vancouver right next to a ferry terminal and a rather busy shopping arcade.

Similarly the V & A Docks in Cape Town have on-water activity and a couple of dry docks right in the middle of the redeveloped docks teeming with people at the weekends.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
It should be noted that it is the developer who wants to close the market and demolish No. 1 Shed.

Having seen port redevelopments overseas I fail to be convinced that removing any maritime activity from the inner harbour upstream from the bridges will actually create the vibrancy that is sought.

I have a photo of a boat yard at North Vancouver right next to a ferry terminal and a rather busy shopping arcade.

Similarly the V & A Docks in Cape Town have on-water activity and a couple of dry docks right in the middle of the redeveloped docks teeming with people at the weekends.
kipioneer
They have already removed too much; the townhouses along the eastern and western side are already a bit "Gold Coast" rather than a nice historical sea-port. Why building another damn shopping centre right on the wharf when there's already one that's under-utilised and sad just off Vincent St? Tell the developers they need to have a go at redeveloping that first. Agree that the Sunday Markets aren't a good use of the present building but I think there's more to trying to revitalise the Port other than just hiving everything off to developers to turn it into Queensland in Adelaide.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The current track is staying to Outer Harbor, …
David Peters
For now, at least. It will take a while for the developers to draw up the plans for what they want to do there, no point announcing it before then.

Personally I think it is just the Labor Party trying to win votes in Port Adelaide because they are scared that it may not now be the safe seat that it used to be. By doing this it makes it look like Labor are actually doing something for Port Adelaide, but in reality all they care about are votes on election day!
David Peters
This is incorrect. Port Adelaide has just become even safer with the latest redistribution and is now the third-safest seat in the state. It will not be where the election is won or lost, and is a poor choice for vote-buying compared to the 20 ALP seats with smaller margins.

If we had some form of proportional representation using the additional member system then it might make sense, because you would be closer to a system where votes in Port Adelaide would have as much value as votes in marginal seats.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
It should be noted that it is the developer who wants to close the market and demolish No. 1 Shed.

Having seen port redevelopments overseas I fail to be convinced that removing any maritime activity from the inner harbour upstream from the bridges will actually create the vibrancy that is sought.

I have a photo of a boat yard at North Vancouver right next to a ferry terminal and a rather busy shopping arcade.

Similarly the V & A Docks in Cape Town have on-water activity and a couple of dry docks right in the middle of the redeveloped docks teeming with people at the weekends.
They have already removed too much; the townhouses along the eastern and western side are already a bit "Gold Coast" rather than a nice historical sea-port. Why building another damn shopping centre right on the wharf when there's already one that's under-utilised and sad just off Vincent St? Tell the developers they need to have a go at redeveloping that first. Agree that the Sunday Markets aren't a good use of the present building but I think there's more to trying to revitalise the Port other than just hiving everything off to developers to turn it into Queensland in Adelaide.
don_dunstan
A developer if he really wants to make Port Adelaide could start with both main streets actually. St Vincent Street West looks like a slum in places Especially the Northern side of it with vacant and run down buildings galore along that section and Commercial Road is the same at the Northern end of it just before St Vincent Street. Some of these older buildings could be demolished or God forbid done up a hell of a lot and business's might just rent them out or something. The most familiar sign these days in the Port is "Building for rent" signs!

I have to agree though that building things just for the sake of building them almost is not the way to go, if it gets done everywhere at Port Adelaide it will pretty soon lose any relevance to any kind of maritime history at all. What it needs is an overall plan for the whole area drawn up and try if possible to retain as much as possible that remains there!

There was plans to build a multi story modern hotel there as well near or alongside the Number 1 shed, but with hotel rooms in the CBD in places empty or whole floors locked out of use in places would a high class hotel ever get booked out down there, I doubt it in the least because tourist wise it is to far off the beaten track really.  There are now more high class hotels in Adelaide CBD that cannot get fully booked out without adding a white elephant at Port Adelaide. Port Adelaide is way off the map for tourist type buses that run around these days, the Port is not exactly an area most would want to see and even less so if it is all demolished and modern shoe box buildings put up in the place of heritage buildings!
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
There was plans to build a multi story modern hotel there as well near or alongside the Number 1 shed, but with hotel rooms in the CBD in places empty or whole floors locked out of use in places would a high class hotel ever get booked out down there, I doubt it in the least because tourist wise it is to far off the beaten track really.
David Peters
There is a new multi storey hotel built in only the past couple of years between No. 1 shed and Nelson Street, over the road from the British.

The developer is the same fellow.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
There was plans to build a multi story modern hotel there as well near or alongside the Number 1 shed, but with hotel rooms in the CBD in places empty or whole floors locked out of use in places would a high class hotel ever get booked out down there, I doubt it in the least because tourist wise it is to far off the beaten track really.
There is a new multi storey hotel built in only the past couple of years between No. 1 shed and Nelson Street, over the road from the British.

The developer is the same fellow.
kipioneer
Actually it is still being built as on Google Earth they show it as 2017 and it still has scaffolding around the building! I still say it will be a white elephant though for who ever owns it! But as long as it is not government money being wasted what does anyone really care.

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