Malcolm Turncoat's imploding act

 
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...But somehow MT and BS have convinced many of us the pathway forward is to close down even more coal power stations and replace them with the very technology that has driven up prices.

Unfortunately there is a very large number of lemmings that are walking into the BS/ALP light beling both power prices and wages will be better under him which is akin to Queen Cersi asking the North to join her at the dinner table!!!
RTT_Rules
Still intent on pinning it on renewables Rolling Eyes

The ACCC released its report into Retail Electricity Prices. Doesn't really fit in with Abbott & Co's anti-renewables agenda so I guess they need to discredit the ACCC now.

"Price increased blamed on 'gold plating' of networks

Mr Sims told AM the ACCC's report showed that so-called "gold plating" was the biggest factor behind the power price increases.

The practice allows power companies to pass through the cost of investing in poles and wires to consumers, encouraging costly over-investment."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-16/clean-energy-target-not-certain-to-lower-power-prices-accc/9052094

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  doyle Assistant Commissioner

@Groundrely you took the words right from my mouth

Some of these comments are at peak stupid

The intewebby thing is your friend use it properly and get those dam facts right
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...Malcolm should save his own party the trouble of sacking him at the 30th lost Newspoll and just resign now.
don_dunstan
Regardless who is at its helm, the Liberal Party fundamentally exists to protect and advance the interests of those on the extreme right of the $Ledger$. If you’re not a great believer in piddle down economics who do you vote for?

No Notion? They seem to vote with the LNP on matters that adversely impact those on the wrong side of that ledger.

NXP? Snakes and ladders where you hope your interests land on the ladder.

That F-off-we’re-all-right party which would rather the government spent nothing or some 'Kill-it, Burn-it, Dig-it up' one-issue lot.

That leaves the ALP and the Greens.

The ALP was created out of that bottom 50%. However it’s a very broad church and cat herding isn’t pretty. They try to balance pragmatism with idealism and its road to hell has been paved with good intentions.

The Greens are idealists but not very pragmatic. Besides they are captive to a misguided belief the future's worth saving. Hardly a realistic proposition Laughing
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The Greens are idealists but not very pragmatic. Besides they are captive to a misguided belief the future's worth saving. Hardly a realistic proposition Laughing
Groundrelay
If we follow their advice we'll all be living in mud yurts and crapping into a hole in the ground. I wouldn't call them so much 'idealists' as 'Luddite delusional lunatic fringe'.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

...But somehow MT and BS have convinced many of us the pathway forward is to close down even more coal power stations and replace them with the very technology that has driven up prices.

Unfortunately there is a very large number of lemmings that are walking into the BS/ALP light beling both power prices and wages will be better under him which is akin to Queen Cersi asking the North to join her at the dinner table!!!
Still intent on pinning it on renewables Rolling Eyes

The ACCC released its report into Retail Electricity Prices. Doesn't really fit in with Abbott & Co's anti-renewables agenda so I guess they need to discredit the ACCC now.

"Price increased blamed on 'gold plating' of networks

Mr Sims told AM the ACCC's report showed that so-called "gold plating" was the biggest factor behind the power price increases.

The practice allows power companies to pass through the cost of investing in poles and wires to consumers, encouraging costly over-investment."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-16/clean-energy-target-not-certain-to-lower-power-prices-accc/9052094
Groundrelay
The Gold Plating of the distribution network was known some time ago. I saw a graph in the SMH the other day ago comparing our electricity prices to comparable economies and we came out OK. The main problem is our low population and large land mass making distribution of electricity expensive.

Maybe the huge east coast network was not such a great idea and a more local network may have been cheaper.

The other issue is that electricity prices were kept artificially low under public ownership to buy votes. Maybe the public owners had no real idea how much it was costing to produce power from their respective generators.

Privatisation changed all of that and cost have blown out exacerbated by life expired power stations.With no new units coming on line it is highly unlikely private money will invest in coal fired power stations that will not come on stream for years. Hence private money will want to invest in cheaper and quicker to build re-newables.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
...But somehow MT and BS have convinced many of us the pathway forward is to close down even more coal power stations and replace them with the very technology that has driven up prices.

Unfortunately there is a very large number of lemmings that are walking into the BS/ALP light beling both power prices and wages will be better under him which is akin to Queen Cersi asking the North to join her at the dinner table!!!
Still intent on pinning it on renewables Rolling Eyes

The ACCC released its report into Retail Electricity Prices. Doesn't really fit in with Abbott & Co's anti-renewables agenda so I guess they need to discredit the ACCC now.

"Price increased blamed on 'gold plating' of networks

Mr Sims told AM the ACCC's report showed that so-called "gold plating" was the biggest factor behind the power price increases.

The practice allows power companies to pass through the cost of investing in poles and wires to consumers, encouraging costly over-investment."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-16/clean-energy-target-not-certain-to-lower-power-prices-accc/9052094
Groundrelay
While I don't argue much was due to network upgrades some of which is to accommodate renewables, network upgrades do not explain the massive rise in power station gate power prices as well as the various shortages or near shortages brought on by a cut back in reliable base load supply. The only reason we have not had more blackouts was because of the closure of Point Henry and Kurri Kurri aluminium smelters which combined released over 500MW. Note the closures were brought on in part by rising power prices during a period of  low metal prices.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
According to that ACCC report the 'switch to renewables' constitutes 7% of your power bill - but that doesn't take into account the extremely heavy subsidies that are given to excessively generous feed-in tariffs paid to solar households for providing the grid with energy at times when its really not needed; also the fact that Chinese-made solar panels (almost all of the market) are highly subsidised by the Chinese government with a view to driving the Germans/everyone else out of business. As soon as these subsidies finish who knows what they'll actually cost - much more than they do now anyway. Also, the panels themselves have relatively short lives; they outlive their commercial usefulness after about 10-12 years (sometimes sooner if the quality is low) and become landfill.

And network charges being 48% doesn't make a lick of sense to me - most of the network was built in the fifties and sixties and was paid for by taxpayers and consumers -
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
...But somehow MT and BS have convinced many of us the pathway forward is to close down even more coal power stations and replace them with the very technology that has driven up prices.

Unfortunately there is a very large number of lemmings that are walking into the BS/ALP light beling both power prices and wages will be better under him which is akin to Queen Cersi asking the North to join her at the dinner table!!!
Still intent on pinning it on renewables Rolling Eyes

The ACCC released its report into Retail Electricity Prices. Doesn't really fit in with Abbott & Co's anti-renewables agenda so I guess they need to discredit the ACCC now.

"Price increased blamed on 'gold plating' of networks

Mr Sims told AM the ACCC's report showed that so-called "gold plating" was the biggest factor behind the power price increases.

The practice allows power companies to pass through the cost of investing in poles and wires to consumers, encouraging costly over-investment."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-16/clean-energy-target-not-certain-to-lower-power-prices-accc/9052094
The Gold Plating of the distribution network was known some time ago. I saw a graph in the SMH the other day ago comparing our electricity prices to comparable economies and we came out OK. The main problem is our low population and large land mass making distribution of electricity expensive.

Maybe the huge east coast network was not such a great idea and a more local network may have been cheaper.

The other issue is that electricity prices were kept artificially low under public ownership to buy votes. Maybe the public owners had no real idea how much it was costing to produce power from their respective generators.

Privatisation changed all of that and cost have blown out exacerbated by life expired power stations.With no new units coming on line it is highly unlikely private money will invest in coal fired power stations that will not come on stream for years. Hence private money will want to invest in cheaper and quicker to build re-newables.
nswtrains
The Gold Plating is one thing and most of the work was completed in recent years and therefore its impact on the grid prices should be constant, yet its rising? Why?

Last month, $500m of govt subsidised solar power that has an output of less than 2% of Liddel annually was annouced, one of the two projects went to AGL (owners of Liddel), the other to a project owned by KSA. Do the maths and work out how much each MW really costs?

The extended network from CQ to Adelaide and Tas has its advantages and enables power to be more easily from regions where power is surplus. ie BAsslink helps balance the peak in the grid. Wind and solar provide peaks and troughs and needs to be accounted for and dealing better with major failures. Also areas of high demand due to extreme weather.

Agree, up until 2010 at least power prices were too low to justify building new capacity and hence little was (from people in the industry). Then along came CO2 tax and loss of govt support to build new. The aging plants sold to the private sector were given upgrades not replacements are previously planned by the govt, ie Hazellwood. Then along came subsidized RE power schemes, starting with domestic roof top PV solar which is ultimately paid for by all.

As the grid supply and demand started to balance, TA cut govt support (read subsidy) for RE, so construction stopped/slowed, but did not push it back the other way to make feasible to build coal and then got replaced with the Greens favorite PM.

On current prices its is more than viable to build coal, it takes 3 years from start of construction to first units coming on line, its late to start now, but not too late. While some will argue against coal because banks won't lend them the money, issue is banks are lending money to build coal fired power stations world wide.

ie Dubai
http://www.power-technology.com/projects/hassyan-clean-coal-project-dubai
Read the part where it says contracted to supply at US$0.05/kWh.

That's A$60/MWH using Australian Coal!!!!
Price is 24/7/365, they will use the existing gas power stations to match the variation in the grid load.
They also use the waste heat to desal water for the city.

The Australian govt is preventing the banks from lending the money under fear of CO2 tax or other repercussion.

To solve the power problem
- You need to force the RE suppliers to bid guaranteed supply.
- Remove any repercussion threat on bank fiance for a coal fired power station
- Remove subsidises on RE power.

Blaming it all on the Gold plating of the grid is BS if the power stations are flat just keeping the lights on.

Why is the govt working so hard to sign up people and companies willing to cut demand when the grid gets loaded? This is nothing to do with the grid!

Regards
Shane
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
@Groundrely you took the words right from my mouth

Some of these comments are at peak stupid

The intewebby thing is your friend use it properly and get those dam facts right
doyle
Intewebby is full of lots of information, question how much is BS?

if the grid wasn't as gold plated as it is SA would be in the dark more often.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
' Nations do collapse - history is littered with failed nations. Is ours about to become one of them?'
Sad but highly possible ............. Crying or Very sad
and highly unlikely.

Its called democracy, you get a bad govt, you vote for another. If they don't resolve the issues the one ousted gets the point and changes it policy to match people pressure and gets voted back in. That's how Tony got in on stopping the boats and canning the CO2 tax.  Problem was he's not a great PM and his own party stabbed him in the back and he was not strong enough to get his own party to vanish MT. Howard would never have put up with MT's antics, back stabbing and leaking.
You need to read more history - an area that you are quite weak on I gather - and come up with a set of factors that precedes a government or national collapse. Corruption is one consistent theme (see the fall of the Roman Empire) - the other is that the wealthiest refuse to pay tax and completely ignore the plight of the people on the bottom (see the House of Bourbon in France).

And also part of the problem for the public at the moment is that voting actually isn't changing policy because most things with the LNP/Labor/Greens are bipartisan policy - so it's actually impossible for the nation to change direction.
don_dunstan
What I pile of crap Don!

If Australia is headed for the pits, then we will behind at least 150 other nations.

I've said it before Don, the world viewed from a lounge room in Adelaide is not the real world.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I've said it before Don, the world viewed from a lounge room in Adelaide is not the real world.
RTT_Rules
Shane - please don't launch a personal attack on me because you don't like what I'm saying. I don't call you ignorant on account of where you live (despite my feelings on that horrible repressive place - and yes, I have been there), please don't do that to me.

All that's required for a nation to turn into a failed state is for weak or corrupt political leadership to persist and I think we're starting to fit that picture now. I don't often agree with Australian columnist Grace Collier but I think she summed it up nicely in an opinion piece from earlier this year:

Now we face an energy crisis created entirely by the political class. We should have the cheapest electricity in the world, but no — ­because of government interference and incompetence we have perhaps the most expensive. We have more reserves of coal and gas than any country could ever want, yet through sheer ­incompetence we cannot get to it and deliver it at reasonable prices to the citizens of this country.

Fundamentally what's happening is that the politicians are not serving the interests of the people - at all - and that's pretty much the key ingredient in a failed state.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I've said it before Don, the world viewed from a lounge room in Adelaide is not the real world.
Shane - please don't launch a personal attack on me because you don't like what I'm saying. I don't call you ignorant on account of where you live (despite my feelings on that horrible repressive place - and yes, I have been there), please don't do that to me.

All that's required for a nation to turn into a failed state is for weak or corrupt political leadership to persist and I think we're starting to fit that picture now. I don't often agree with Australian columnist Grace Collier but I think she summed it up nicely in an opinion piece from earlier this year:

Now we face an energy crisis created entirely by the political class. We should have the cheapest electricity in the world, but no — ­because of government interference and incompetence we have perhaps the most expensive. We have more reserves of coal and gas than any country could ever want, yet through sheer ­incompetence we cannot get to it and deliver it at reasonable prices to the citizens of this country.

Fundamentally what's happening is that the politicians are not serving the interests of the people - at all - and that's pretty much the key ingredient in a failed state.
don_dunstan
Then don't start a personal attack to start with Don!!!! This is 2nd time you done this!!!

On the power side, issue is we have two leaders selling the same BS.

All it will take is a new leader to promise FIX the real issue with technology that works and laying out a real plan and things will change. Problem is now we have no choice unless TA starts a new party. Unfortunately Australia will give BS a go just to prove his solution is a non-solution.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I've said it before Don, the world viewed from a lounge room in Adelaide is not the real world.
Shane - please don't launch a personal attack on me because you don't like what I'm saying. I don't call you ignorant on account of where you live (despite my feelings on that horrible repressive place - and yes, I have been there), please don't do that to me.

All that's required for a nation to turn into a failed state is for weak or corrupt political leadership to persist and I think we're starting to fit that picture now. I don't often agree with Australian columnist Grace Collier but I think she summed it up nicely in an opinion piece from earlier this year:

Now we face an energy crisis created entirely by the political class. We should have the cheapest electricity in the world, but no — ­because of government interference and incompetence we have perhaps the most expensive. We have more reserves of coal and gas than any country could ever want, yet through sheer ­incompetence we cannot get to it and deliver it at reasonable prices to the citizens of this country.

Fundamentally what's happening is that the politicians are not serving the interests of the people - at all - and that's pretty much the key ingredient in a failed state.
Then don't start a personal attack to start with Don!!!! This is 2nd time you done this!!!

On the power side, issue is we have two leaders selling the same BS.

All it will take is a new leader to promise FIX the real issue with technology that works and laying out a real plan and things will change. Problem is now we have no choice unless TA starts a new party. Unfortunately Australia will give BS a go just to prove his solution is a non-solution.
RTT_Rules
Bring back TA and the Spanish Inquisition. You are joking?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Then don't start a personal attack to start with Don!!!! This is 2nd time you done this!!!
RTT_Rules
No Shane, what I actually said to you is that you need to educate yourself on things that you are speaking about. For example, you say that Australia is in absolutely no danger of collapsing into a failed state but then you don't offer any evidence as to why you think that way. Same with facial recognition, you haven't considered the alternative position at all but then you are convinced that you are right and that we should all submit ourselves to Skynet; you haven't considered (will not consider) the alternative position.

It's not a personal attack - I'm trying to point out to you that you are very opinionated and yet not versed on what the other side of the argument is.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Bring back TA and the Spanish Inquisition. You are joking?
nswtrains
RTT_Rules (and his immediate family I gather) all love Tones and his former off-sider Shrek the Leaner; without a doubt the worst PM/Treasurer team this country has had for decades. There is no logical basis to it: Tony was terrible at that job - the public thought so and even his own party thought so towards the end.

Tones sole motivation for coming back is to destroy Malcolm - there's no other reason for it. He's not doing it for the good of the country or because he thinks he would make a better leader or that he has the support of cabinet. He wants to kick Malcolm out of the chair that Malcolm kicked him out of - end of story.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
 Don said       "  I don't call you ignorant on account of where you live "

Nah but he's just plain fracking ignorant

I provided links and whatknot to you about the South Aus situation previously, and about coal,as in the cutbacks overseas, and no private  mob will build one  in Aus because it aint economic to do so. Unless they get a big fat cash subsidy, or a guarantee like todays announcement,which for all intents and purposes is a tax payer subsidy. Nothing to do with the Feds telling the banks not to lend.

Repeating the same rubbish ad nauseam doesn't make it true.

Don was quoting from an ACCC report, but you know more than they do, yeah sure. How many exclamation marks do I need?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Then don't start a personal attack to start with Don!!!! This is 2nd time you done this!!!
No Shane, what I actually said to you is that you need to educate yourself on things that you are speaking about. For example, you say that Australia is in absolutely no danger of collapsing into a failed state but then you don't offer any evidence as to why you think that way. Same with facial recognition, you haven't considered the alternative position at all but then you are convinced that you are right and that we should all submit ourselves to Skynet; you haven't considered (will not consider) the alternative position.

It's not a personal attack - I'm trying to point out to you that you are very opinionated and yet not versed on what the other side of the argument is.
don_dunstan
Don,
This is a personal attack
You need to read more history - an area that you are quite weak on I gather

You are making a personal attack against my capability or ability. Rather than make a comment against me, you argue the point or move on, resulting to making personal attacks is usually a sign your argument is weak. This is not the first time you have done this.

You back off from making such comments and I'll back off from expressing my perception of life in suburban Adelaide.

Moving on
Why Australia won't become a failed state because the number of failed states in the world or have existed in the world in last 100 years you can count on one hand and the background how this occurred has nothing to do with Australia. Usually out of control crime, incompetent, underfunded and usually corrupt police force and govt along with unemployment levels that few can come close to contemplating.

Facial recognition
You say I haven't considered, but at no time have you stated what will occur by doing so.  You just keep throwing it back at me, Present your case!!!!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Bring back TA and the Spanish Inquisition. You are joking?
RTT_Rules (and his immediate family I gather) all love Tones and his former off-sider Shrek the Leaner; without a doubt the worst PM/Treasurer team this country has had for decades. There is no logical basis to it: Tony was terrible at that job - the public thought so and even his own party thought so towards the end.

Tones sole motivation for coming back is to destroy Malcolm - there's no other reason for it. He's not doing it for the good of the country or because he thinks he would make a better leader or that he has the support of cabinet. He wants to kick Malcolm out of the chair that Malcolm kicked him out of - end of story.
don_dunstan
Again with the personal attacks!!! I mean seriously Don when will you stop? You have no idea what my family vote and to be honest, I don't know apart from my father because I don't care, ask or discuss.

The worst PM we have is the one we have now, the second worst is Julia Gillard and thats from former ALP politicians.
Neither I will argue with apart from of the two who is actually worse. As MT has not yet completed his time at PM he has more time to become the worst if not already.

Agree, Tones attacks on MT and for this he doesn't deserve a 2nd chance. If he's played a more professional game and let MT destory himself you "may" I say may give a 2nd go as he may have learned something.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Don, This is a personal attack You need to read more history - an area that you are quite weak on I gather You are making a personal attack against my capability or ability. Rather than make a comment against me, you argue the point or move on, resulting to making personal attacks is usually a sign your argument is weak.
RTT_Rules

But the problem is that you insist on weighing in on debates with an opinion which doesn't seem to be supported by anything - not even ten minutes on Google. It makes for a very boring conversation if you don't even know what the opposing points of view even are.
This is not the first time you have done this. You back off from making such comments and I'll back off from expressing my perception of life in suburban Adelaide. Moving on Why Australia won't become a failed state because the number of failed states in the world or have existed in the world in last 100 years you can count on one hand and the background how this occurred has nothing to do with Australia. Usually out of control crime, incompetent, underfunded and usually corrupt police force and govt along with unemployment levels that few can come close to contemplating.
RTT_Rules
You don't think this is happening in Australia? I live here and my feeling is that soft corruption is flourishing and it's a slippery slope. It really doesn't take much for a country to become a failed state; just a lack of strong leadership.
Facial recognition You say I haven't considered, but at no time have you stated what will occur by doing so. You just keep throwing it back at me, Present your case!!!!
RTT_Rules
You obviously have some degree of intelligence - as I said further up the page you can work out what these problems are for yourself... but I'll give you a hint. Benevolent Malcolm Turnbull wants all of our driver's license photos to protect us from (largely imaginary) terrorists - what happens if a no-so-nice government comes in that wants all the photos of the people involved in certain political activist groups, gays, black people, National Party voters - whatever you can imagine.

What checks and balances are in place to ensure that the photos will be used for their original intended purpose of protecting us - because my feeling is (as with all these things) that we are on a slippery slope, sleepwalking into an Orwellian nightmare of huge proportions and they're re-assuring us all the way that it's not about persecuting people who are expressing legitimate political opposition. I really have my doubts that such a huge database won't be open for abuse for people to access.

Picture this: You move to a small country town and the local cop finds out through a metadata search that you are a political activist (of the sort he doesn't like) and he either uses that the persecute you or spread malicious rumours about you around the town. What if that information isn't even correct - how do you defend yourself against that? Incidentally things like this happen all the time - there was that Victorian MP some years ago who was caught accessing the LEAP database (the Victoria Police computer network) to find out if any of his neighbours had any convictions for anything. Don't think that this stuff is protected from abuse - the people with the power always abuse it, it's just the nature of the beast.

We've already seen how data can be seriously mis-used in this country - local councils trying access the metadata phone and internet records of residents to determine if they're doing anything that contravenes their by-laws - Wyndham Council in Melbourne caught doing this to enforce piddling council by-laws. At least in the United States their constitution protects the people against unreasonable searches (restrictions on data mining) - we have no such protection here. And please don't use that incredibly weak argument that "...if I've done nothing wrong, I have nothing to hide"; everyone has information about themselves that they don't want public but you may not have any choice in the future.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
 Don said       "  I don't call you ignorant on account of where you live "

Nah but he's just plain fracking ignorant

I provided links and whatknot to you about the South Aus situation previously, and about coal,as in the cutbacks overseas, and no private  mob will build one  in Aus because it aint economic to do so. Unless they get a big fat cash subsidy, or a guarantee like todays announcement,which for all intents and purposes is a tax payer subsidy. Nothing to do with the Feds telling the banks not to lend.

Repeating the same rubbish ad nauseam doesn't make it true.

Don was quoting from an ACCC report, but you know more than they do, yeah sure. How many exclamation marks do I need?
wobert
Hardly

Yes, and I explained to you some of the information was rubbish and not reality.

Count the number of coal fired power stations being built across, Middle East, India, Vietnam, China, Japan......I'll make it easy for you, its over 1000. And guess what, many are burning or will burn Australian coal.

There are no cutbacks in coal fired power production world wide, just a few countries of which some have viable alternatives such as moving to nuclear, gas, viable RE and subsidised RE. Australia is doing the later.

Coal does not need a subsidy in Australia. I shared a link of one being built in Dubai, Today, 2400MW using Australian coal for less than the power price paid by smelters in Australia and this is a privately funded project with bank finance. So if its viable there, why is not a coal fired power station viable in Australia where the gate price is frequently double the contract price in Dubai???? who said anything about needing a subsidy?

The problem now in Oz is that Turnbull is stacking the numbers in his favor with foreign known pro RE energy supporters dropped into senior roles such as I believe AEMO.

And please explain how viable some of these RE projects are and how they don't influence the power price if it takes nearly $500m of tax payer money to make a solar power station with less than 2% of the output of Liddel is?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Don, This is a personal attack You need to read more history - an area that you are quite weak on I gather You are making a personal attack against my capability or ability. Rather than make a comment against me, you argue the point or move on, resulting to making personal attacks is usually a sign your argument is weak.

But the problem is that you insist on weighing in on debates with an opinion which doesn't seem to be supported by anything - not even ten minutes on Google. It makes for a very boring conversation if you don't even know what the opposing points of view even are.
This is not the first time you have done this. You back off from making such comments and I'll back off from expressing my perception of life in suburban Adelaide. Moving on Why Australia won't become a failed state because the number of failed states in the world or have existed in the world in last 100 years you can count on one hand and the background how this occurred has nothing to do with Australia. Usually out of control crime, incompetent, underfunded and usually corrupt police force and govt along with unemployment levels that few can come close to contemplating.
You don't think this is happening in Australia? I live here and my feeling is that soft corruption is flourishing and it's a slippery slope. It really doesn't take much for a country to become a failed state; just a lack of strong leadership.
Facial recognition You say I haven't considered, but at no time have you stated what will occur by doing so. You just keep throwing it back at me, Present your case!!!!
You obviously have some degree of intelligence - as I said further up the page you can work out what these problems are for yourself... but I'll give you a hint. Benevolent Malcolm Turnbull wants all of our driver's license photos to protect us from (largely imaginary) terrorists - what happens if a no-so-nice government comes in that wants all the photos of the people involved in certain political activist groups, gays, black people, National Party voters - whatever you can imagine.

What checks and balances are in place to ensure that the photos will be used for their original intended purpose of protecting us - because my feeling is (as with all these things) that we are on a slippery slope, sleepwalking into an Orwellian nightmare of huge proportions and they're re-assuring us all the way that it's not about persecuting people who are expressing legitimate political opposition. I really have my doubts that such a huge database won't be open for abuse for people to access.

Picture this: You move to a small country town and the local cop finds out through a metadata search that you are a political activist (of the sort he doesn't like) and he either uses that the persecute you or spread malicious rumours about you around the town. What if that information isn't even correct - how do you defend yourself against that? Incidentally things like this happen all the time - there was that Victorian MP some years ago who was caught accessing the LEAP database (the Victoria Police computer network) to find out if any of his neighbours had any convictions for anything. Don't think that this stuff is protected from abuse - the people with the power always abuse it, it's just the nature of the beast.

We've already seen how data can be seriously mis-used in this country - local councils trying access the metadata phone and internet records of residents to determine if they're doing anything that contravenes their by-laws - Wyndham Council in Melbourne caught doing this to enforce piddling council by-laws. At least in the United States their constitution protects the people against unreasonable searches (restrictions on data mining) - we have no such protection here. And please don't use that incredibly weak argument that "...if I've done nothing wrong, I have nothing to hide"; everyone has information about themselves that they don't want public but you may not have any choice in the future.
don_dunstan
Who says I don't use google? What I express is often a summary of what I read, not just my opinion.

I frequently quote various reports counteracting your doom and gloom opinion of Australia and you keep going as if they never appeared.

There are probably 150 countries that are closer to failing than Australia. It takes alot more than weak leadership.

The 2nd last paragraph just described to a T why my mum left her country town 50 years ago, rumors and innuendo. Do I think it would be worse with the mega database's, unlikely! I live in this society now. Facial and car number plate technology is everywhere, life goes on and guess what. There is less crime and crime that occurs is often resolved faster? Does it stop the big crime and corruption. Probably not, but I have less fear of physical violence against me or my family so I'm happy with that extra security. When was the last time someone was "glassed" in Dubai? Do I feel my wife could safely walk home at 3am in the morning from the pub, yes.

Personal opinion only, the so called protections in the USA are lip service only, do we really believe the likes of the CIA don't know everything and use it as they see fit?

I understand the fear in these mega data bases. But for me there are bigger issues that impact on our lives than this.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
And who built the original electricity network, wasn't that tax payers money.Ooh but that's different. Most new industry is started by the government because they are the only ones that can afford the risk and provide the capital required .Then private industry moves in if it see s a quid.Who started the internet? The the computer industry was going nowhere in the 1930's, but due to the war and the capital was provided. The space industry was all government funded for nearly 50 years until industry saw an opportunity. As Don said you want to lean a bit of history.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I seem to recall you mentioning that your dad thought that Joe Hockey was a nice guy - I do remember things that you say you know. It's not a personal attack on you or your family - I just happened to remember what you said.
Agree, Tones attacks on MT and for this he doesn't deserve a 2nd chance.
RTT_Rules
You said earlier that we would have nothing to vote for unless Tones started his own party - I took from this that you still thought he was an electable leader.
The 2nd last paragraph just described to a T why my mum left her country town 50 years ago, rumors and innuendo. Do I think it would be worse with the mega database's, unlikely!
RTT_Rules
What are you basing that on?
When was the last time someone was "glassed" in Dubai? Do I feel my wife could safely walk home at 3am in the morning from the pub, yes.
RTT_Rules
How do you connect the lack of personal/property crime in your particular part of the world with increased mass surveillance? Is there any evidence that increased mass surveillance results in lower crime or are you just making an assumption based on what you feel is right?
Personal opinion only, the so called protections in the USA are lip service only, do we really believe the likes of the CIA don't know everything and use it as they see fit?
RTT_Rules
I'm not worried about the CIA, I'm worried about petty local bureaucrats. And its a real fear - they dip into this stuff all time. ATO employees snooping on celebrities, police officers exceeding their authority. This is a much bigger problem and you're giving them more and more powerful tools to snoop on your life with bugger all oversight.
I understand the fear in these mega data bases. But for me there are bigger issues that impact on our lives than this.
RTT_Rules
Picture this: The Chinese government asks the Australian government to hand over all the data they have on dissident political activity. And if we don't comply they'll turn the economic screws. There's all sorts of potential for a big, centralised database on everyone to be abused.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
When I'm sober I might have a real crack.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
And who built the original electricity network, wasn't that tax payers money.
wobert
This is what chides me the most about these ridiculous electricity prices - the network was built by taxpayers and consumers decades ago and now all the sudden network charges are though the roof - why? What's the justification? Even the ACCC couldn't explain it away. It's a gouge - pure and simple.

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