Dining cars in South Australia

 
  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT
Why do dining cars catch on fire so easily ?
Ever spent any time in a commercial kitchen Heath?
Add  rocking movement and a stove top and there's your answer
Pressman

Agree.... basically, moving kitchen and "hot stuff".... BUT, how come Ship's galleys are not burning down ships??? Arguably a somewhat more moving kitchen???

SmileSmileSmile

Mind you... hardly rail related... SmileSmile

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  allan Chief Commissioner

BUT, how come Ship's galleys are not burning down ships??? Arguably a somewhat more moving kitchen???

SmileSmileSmile

Mind you... hardly rail related... SmileSmile
SA_trains
Oh, but they try! The caboose (kitchen) was a deck house, for that reason. There's not a lot of flammable material in the kitchen of a modern vessel.

And, don't forget that most ships were surrounded by a fairly efficient fire-extinguishing medium.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
BUT, how come Ship's galleys are not burning down ships??? Arguably a somewhat more moving kitchen???

SmileSmileSmile

Mind you... hardly rail related... SmileSmile
Oh, but they try! The caboose (kitchen) was a deck house, for that reason. There's not a lot of flammable material in the kitchen of a modern vessel.

And, don't forget that most ships were surrounded by a fairly efficient fire-extinguishing medium.
allan
The marine galleys I've done repair in are mostly Stainless Steel and Ceramic non slip tiles and they do actually hose them down!  So there is not a lot of flammable material around.
The also have quite sizable guards to stop things sliding (Pots on hot plates etc)

Of interest was the fire a year or so on DF927 as it was being moved onto the Ghan consist. a series of incidents added up.........
a hot plate had been left turned on ............. cardboard boxes where stacked on the stove ............. so when the diner was coupled and the power connected ........ the hotplate heated up and the cardboard caught fire ........... and hence a Quick call to 000
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Why do dining cars catch on fire so easily ?
Ever spent any time in a commercial kitchen Heath?
Add  rocking movement and a stove top and there's your answer

Agree.... basically, moving kitchen and "hot stuff".... BUT, how come Ship's galleys are not burning down ships??? Arguably a somewhat more moving kitchen???
SA_trains
Before going any further down this track, keep in mind we are only talking about two fires in the cafeteria car's 35 year career on the rails. Young Heath can easily get excited and lose track of the big picture.

I'm sure there are galley fires on ships from time to time. I wouldn't say they move more than an on-train kitchen though, not on some of the tracks we have in Australia.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'The also have quite sizable guards to stop things sliding (Pots on hot plates etc)'
These 'railings' are called 'fiddles'.

'Of interest was the fire a year or so on DF927 as it was being moved onto the Ghan consist. a series of incidents added up.........
a hot plate had been left turned on ............. cardboard boxes where stacked on the stove ............. so when the diner was coupled and the power connected ........ the hotplate heated up and the cardboard caught fire ........... '

Plain stupidity!
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

One other thing about the Cafeteria car that might be the source of the fires was this car had it owns diesel driven generator plant under the car, like the AD/BD cars had in SAR service and a burst fuel pipe over a hot motor casing could also be the cause of a fire which was the case I think in one fire on the car. Also having a tank of diesel fuel under the car does not help either, as once a fire starts under the car then the fuel tank is also liable to go up with it.

The floor in this car is wood by the way the same as in a Red Hen and a lot of other cars built by the SAR years back. I know the floor is wood as at the old Port Dock Station Railway Museum I and a few others crawled on our knees the whole length of that car removing nails and tacks that had been put in to hold the old lino tiled floor tiles in place over the years. All had to be removed before new lino tiles were installed back into it.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
One other thing about the Cafeteria car that might be the source of the fires was this car had it owns diesel driven generator plant under the car, like the AD/BD cars had in SAR service and a burst fuel pipe over a hot motor casing could also be the cause of a fire which was the case I think in one fire on the car. Also having a tank of diesel fuel under the car does not help either, as once a fire starts under the car then the fuel tank is also liable to go up with it.

The floor in this car is wood by the way the same as in a Red Hen and a lot of other cars built by the SAR years back. I know the floor is wood as at the old Port Dock Station Railway Museum I and a few others crawled on our knees the whole length of that car removing nails and tacks that had been put in to hold the old lino tiled floor tiles in place over the years. All had to be removed before new lino tiles were installed back into it.
DJPeters
Now that you mention it the Cafeteria Car always looked cheap to me especially when compared with the Overland sleepers from the same era and source. I had forgotten about the diesel generators under the East - West cars starting and stopping at intervals enroute. Perhaps they were actually running all the time and just loading and unloading at intervals - either way they were an annoyance?

Were the floor tiles of a sort of contrasting colours (dark and light colours) or am I imagining it ?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Now that you mention it the Cafeteria Car always looked cheap to me especially when compared with the Overland sleepers from the same era and source. I had forgotten about the diesel generators under the East - West cars starting and stopping at intervals enroute. Perhaps they were actually running all the time and just loading and unloading at intervals - either way they were an annoyance?
YM-Mundrabilla
Maybe it was the Victorians that insisted on the Overland being built to a standard.

The diesel auxiliary generators starting and stopping might have been if they were only there to charge lead-acid batteries rather than run the power directly.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Now that you mention it the Cafeteria Car always looked cheap to me especially when compared with the Overland sleepers from the same era and source. I had forgotten about the diesel generators under the East - West cars starting and stopping at intervals enroute. Perhaps they were actually running all the time and just loading and unloading at intervals - either way they were an annoyance?
Maybe it was the Victorians that insisted on the Overland being built to a standard.

The diesel auxiliary generators starting and stopping might have been if they were only there to charge lead-acid batteries rather than run the power directly.
justapassenger
I don't know who but the resulting Overland cars were better finished than any of the Commonwealth Engineering cars in my opinion.
To me, the SoP cars of 1937, the Wegmann cars and the Overland sleepers were the best finished cars in this country.

Perhaps it was the airconditioning cutting in and out that caused the noise under the East - West cars. It was all 100 years ago now ..........Smile
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

The Cafeteria car was the pattern car or the first car that later the pattern was used on the Overland car's so they where learning as they went along so to speak, It was the first car ever made by the SAR like this and everything learned on making this car was used when the Overland needed new cars. There were a lot of things that could have been done better though, as most of the windows are single pane windows with the only double pane windows in it are near the centre of the car alongside the walkway past the counter. A lot of wood was used in it's construction though mainly inside the car. Insulation was put into the car in the form of Kapok matteress's which once the windows and car started to leak held the water and thus the side supports of the car rusted out badly. In actual fact to put the corrugated sheeting on the car at the then Port Dock Station Railway Museum steel pieces had to be put into the car frame to hold the new cladding. All the cladding had been removed and I assume that it was used to fill the sides of Bluebird 250 car's that got rebuilt. The ones that had an enclosed cab for the driver.

It was lower in height than the later Overland and AD/BD/CD cars as well and always looked odd. It was reputed at some stage to have been, blue, green and Regal Red. Photo's of it in green can be found but the  blue scheme if it was actually ever applied are like hen's teeth. It was built with the same bogies as used on the original new Overland cars and rode just as badly on them as the Overland cars did later, so they were replaced with Commonwealth type passenger bogies made by Bradford Kendall at some stage.

From memory the under floor generators ran all the time when used for passengers!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Where are the overland dinning cars now?  Have they been preserved?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Where are the overland dinning cars now?  Have they been preserved?
bevans

The Overland hasn't had 'DINNING' .. Dining cars for over 80 years.

M.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Where are the overland dinning cars now?  Have they been preserved?
bevans
Perhaps you should read my post further up the page for a somewhat informed account of the use of the ONLY SAR dining car on the Overland.
Adelaide is preserved at the NRM Port Dock.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The Cafeteria car was the pattern car or the first car that later the pattern was used on the Overland car's so they where learning as they went along so to speak, It was the first car ever made by the SAR like this and everything learned on making this car was used when the Overland needed new cars. There were a lot of things that could have been done better though, as most of the windows are single pane windows with the only double pane windows in it are near the centre of the car alongside the walkway past the counter. A lot of wood was used in it's construction though mainly inside the car. Insulation was put into the car in the form of Kapok matteress's which once the windows and car started to leak held the water and thus the side supports of the car rusted out badly. In actual fact to put the corrugated sheeting on the car at the then Port Dock Station Railway Museum steel pieces had to be put into the car frame to hold the new cladding. All the cladding had been removed and I assume that it was used to fill the sides of Bluebird 250 car's that got rebuilt. The ones that had an enclosed cab for the driver.

It was lower in height than the later Overland and AD/BD/CD cars as well and always looked odd. It was reputed at some stage to have been, blue, green and Regal Red. Photo's of it in green can be found but the  blue scheme if it was actually ever applied are like hen's teeth. It was built with the same bogies as used on the original new Overland cars and rode just as badly on them as the Overland cars did later, so they were replaced with Commonwealth type passenger bogies made by Bradford Kendall at some stage.

From memory the under floor generators ran all the time when used for passengers!
DJPeters
Not absolutely certain but pretty certain that the letter board above the windows was blue when I saw it in the early 1970s (?). There was also a tizzy neon sign in this area saying 'Cafeteria Car' or words to that effect.
All IIRC - a long time ago...........Smile
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

Original livery was blue and silver, but sometime in the early 1960's it was repainted green and then eventually obtained the standard red and silver of The Overland cars.

It is taken from this site on the internet.
http://www.comrails.com/sar_carriages/n_cafeteria.html
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Original livery was blue and silver, but sometime in the early 1960's it was repainted green and then eventually obtained the standard red and silver of The Overland cars.

It is taken from this site on the internet.
http://www.comrails.com/sar_carriages/n_cafeteria.html
DJPeters
Looks a bit like my dates might have been a bit out re the blue v green v red colour schemes.
  NG Sulzers Deputy Commissioner

Location: Quorn
As some comparison was made to vessels, I can offer the following.
I've served on two classes of Australian Submarines, and on both classes, when we conduct emergency casualty drills with the 'bomb chuckers' on board, galley fires were up there with the drills, probably only running a close second to engine room fires.
Heating in the galley, oven, grills etc were provided by electrical current. On both the Oberons and Collins, an isolation switch was provided just outside the galley, in the event of any fire, the galley circuits, 440VDC, 220VDC and 115VAC would be isolated. Removing the energy source is an excellent first step into overhauling a fire.
The Oberons also had a 'deep fat fryer', (DFF) of course with oil (perhaps the Poms actually did use lard or dripping in theirs). I think 90% of the fire scenario's we had to deal with on the Oberons were in the DFF. In addition to removing the energy source, the DFF also had a spring loaded flap over the top on a detent. It could be tripped from within and immediately outside the galley.
Along came Collins subs and it was decided the galley did not need a DFF, mainly for health reasons, but also further eliminating a potential fire risk. Although some fitter and turners would take a bench top DFF with them on deployment, would operate ok on 60Hz as it's only a resistive load.
The stoves were another source of fires, the insulation was prone to at least smouldering, if not catching on fire if fat, oil or grease wasn't contained and got a chance to soak into the insulation.
Generally an AFFF (Aqueous Fire Fighting Foam) or gas-water extinguishers were not permitted to directly attack a fire in the galley, they could be used for boundary cooling or as last resort. Preferred extinguishing medium is dry powder, BCF or Halon 1301.

Slightly divergent to dining cars, Relay Vans as introduced by the SAR and then adopted by the CR started out with wood fueled stoves. Wood fueled stoves later progressed to gas, along with gas absorption refrigerators. Relay vans now are all electric. The stove tops don't have fiddles, but do have a surrounding barrier, which at least contains pots and pans generally on top of the stove.
I'd personally still like to have a gas stove in the relay vans, I hate cooking with electricity.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Original livery was blue and silver, but sometime in the early 1960's it was repainted green and then eventually obtained the standard red and silver of The Overland cars.

It is taken from this site on the internet.
http://www.comrails.com/sar_carriages/n_cafeteria.html
DJPeters

I recall an article in the ARHS Bulletin in the early 1950s (soon after the Bulletin became a separate publication) that described the Cafeteria Car as being "blue-green" in colour. You would expect it to be painted the green used on the 500,600 and 700 cars if it were to be used with them, but of course the green window band would line up with cream band on the steel cars so it wouldn't match... Maybe the one colour was reported as both blue and green.

I suspect that it may have only been painted maroon after the introduction of the D cars, (1966-67) since it wasn't normally used with the Overland cars, which were maroon from the late 1940s.

It matched the D cars fairly well. You had to look closely to see the minor differences.

Peter
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Thinking back on it, the Cafeteria Car when I saw it on one or other occasion(s) was definitely blue as I noted that there was a Bluebird railcar resemblance.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
As some comparison was made to vessels, I can offer the following.
I've served on two classes of Australian Submarines, and on both classes, when we conduct emergency casualty drills with the 'bomb chuckers' on board, galley fires were up there with the drills, probably only running a close second to engine room fires.
Heating in the galley, oven, grills etc were provided by electrical current. On both the Oberons and Collins, an isolation switch was provided just outside the galley, in the event of any fire, the galley circuits, 440VDC, 220VDC and 115VAC would be isolated. Removing the energy source is an excellent first step into overhauling a fire.
The Oberons also had a 'deep fat fryer', (DFF) of course with oil (perhaps the Poms actually did use lard or dripping in theirs). I think 90% of the fire scenario's we had to deal with on the Oberons were in the DFF. In addition to removing the energy source, the DFF also had a spring loaded flap over the top on a detent. It could be tripped from within and immediately outside the galley.
Along came Collins subs and it was decided the galley did not need a DFF, mainly for health reasons, but also further eliminating a potential fire risk. Although some fitter and turners would take a bench top DFF with them on deployment, would operate ok on 60Hz as it's only a resistive load.
The stoves were another source of fires, the insulation was prone to at least smouldering, if not catching on fire if fat, oil or grease wasn't contained and got a chance to soak into the insulation.
Generally an AFFF (Aqueous Fire Fighting Foam) or gas-water extinguishers were not permitted to directly attack a fire in the galley, they could be used for boundary cooling or as last resort. Preferred extinguishing medium is dry powder, BCF or Halon 1301.

Slightly divergent to dining cars, Relay Vans as introduced by the SAR and then adopted by the CR started out with wood fueled stoves. Wood fueled stoves later progressed to gas, along with gas absorption refrigerators. Relay vans now are all electric. The stove tops don't have fiddles, but do have a surrounding barrier, which at least contains pots and pans generally on top of the stove.
I'd personally still like to have a gas stove in the relay vans, I hate cooking with electricity.
NG Sulzers
Not keen on gas in any form in rolling stock.
Nearly burnt NSS 34 to the ground once many years ago.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
'The also have quite sizable guards to stop things sliding (Pots on hot plates etc)'
These 'railings' are called 'fiddles'.

'Of interest was the fire a year or so on DF927 as it was being moved onto the Ghan consist. a series of incidents added up.........
a hot plate had been left turned on ............. cardboard boxes where stacked on the stove ............. so when the diner was coupled and the power connected ........ the hotplate heated up and the cardboard caught fire ........... '

Plain stupidity!
YM-Mundrabilla

And yet this was in an era when you old fogeys were running the railways and things like this never happened Razz
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'The also have quite sizable guards to stop things sliding (Pots on hot plates etc)'
These 'railings' are called 'fiddles'.

'Of interest was the fire a year or so on DF927 as it was being moved onto the Ghan consist. a series of incidents added up.........
a hot plate had been left turned on ............. cardboard boxes where stacked on the stove ............. so when the diner was coupled and the power connected ........ the hotplate heated up and the cardboard caught fire ........... '

Plain stupidity!

And yet this was in an era when you old fogeys were running the railways and things like this never happened Razz
bingley hall
Perhaps us 'silly old bastards' were too smart or lucky enough not to get caught but do you stack the weekly groceries on the stove at home? Smile
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Perhaps us 'silly old bastards' were too smart or lucky enough not to get caught but do you stack the weekly groceries on the stove at home? Smile
YM-Mundrabilla
You know the answer to that would be "How was I to know someone would plug it in?"
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Perhaps us 'silly old bastards' were too smart or lucky enough not to get caught but do you stack the weekly groceries on the stove at home? Smile
You know the answer to that would be "How was I to know someone would plug it in?"
lkernan
Sad, but true.
The instructions did not say not to put flammable material on the stove. The silly old fool that wrote them probably thought that that was common sense.................

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