People injured after train crash at Richmond Station

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 22 Jan 2018 10:50
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
If OTSI handball this to the ATSB, they're likely to be busy little beavers, with a bunch of new investigations since January 1st alone!
KRviator


ATSB are doing an investigation.

https://www.facebook.com/atsbgovau/photos/a.1655527014665323.1073741829.1638364093048282/2021028738115147/?type=3&theater

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  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
If OTSI handball this to the ATSB, they're likely to be busy little beavers, with a bunch of new investigations since January 1st alone!


ATSB are doing an investigation.

https://www.facebook.com/atsbgovau/photos/a.1655527014665323.1073741829.1638364093048282/2021028738115147/?type=3&theater
s3_gunzel
ATSB aren't investigating in their own right, they're going to be helping OTSI. Don't hold your breath for a final report...Sad

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) will be assisting in the investigation of an electric passenger train which collided with a buffer stop at Richmond Railway Station, NSW earlier today.

This investigation is being led by the New South Wales Office of Transport Safety Investigations (OTSI). Under the provisions of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003, the ATSB will provide OTSI with technical and analytical support. No further information about the accident is available at this time.
The ATSB
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
If OTSI handball this to the ATSB, they're likely to be busy little beavers, with a bunch of new investigations since January 1st alone!


ATSB are doing an investigation.

https://www.facebook.com/atsbgovau/photos/a.1655527014665323.1073741829.1638364093048282/2021028738115147/?type=3&theater
ATSB aren't investigating in their own right, they're going to be helping OTSI. Don't hold your breath for a final report...Sad
KRviator


Oops. Looks like I misread that one.

Surely one of them will do a report though? For example, OTSI have a report for the Unanderra Derailment of 2009... http://www.otsi.nsw.gov.au/rail/Investigation-Report-Unanderra-Derailment.pdf
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
OTSI will publish a report...Someday...

For example, the ATSB published a report into a safeworking breach at Kilbride 17 January 2018, following an incident in May 2014. Nearly 3.5 years after the incident. We're still waiting for the investigation to conclude into a derailment at Kankool in February 2015, a SPAD & derailment at Hornsby in December 2015, and a host of others.
  crisfitz Chief Commissioner

Location: Enroute somewhere
OTSI will publish a report...Someday...

For example, the ATSB published a report into a safeworking breach at Kilbride 17 January 2018, following an incident in May 2014. Nearly 3.5 years after the incident. We're still waiting for the investigation to conclude into a derailment at Kankool in February 2015, a SPAD & derailment at Hornsby in December 2015, and a host of others.
"KRviator"


As a former ATSB investigator I can assure you that:

a) the assistance will be little more than a review of the report. That's as much as the ATSB gets involved
b) the chances of seeing the report before 2020 is VERY remote. Usually looking at 12 months just to get the first draft done, then there's the countless reviews by DIPS (directly interested parties) and management.

Sydney Trains will have their investigation done, dusted and changes (if necessary) implemented long before the ATSB's even looked at it.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
OTSI will publish a report...Someday...

For example, the ATSB published a report into a safeworking breach at Kilbride 17 January 2018, following an incident in May 2014. Nearly 3.5 years after the incident. We're still waiting for the investigation to conclude into a derailment at Kankool in February 2015, a SPAD & derailment at Hornsby in December 2015, and a host of others.


As a former ATSB investigator I can assure you that:

b) the chances of seeing the report before 2020 is VERY remote. Usually looking at 12 months just to get the first draft done, then there's the countless reviews by DIPS (directly interested parties) and management.
crisfitz
And that's where I have a problem. It is not the fault of the investigators themselves, not do I have a quarrel with them. But where other crew can learn from an incident, they should not be left swinging until Groups A through T have had their say and the report sanitised so as to not ruffle too many feathers.

Still, crew (and operators) need to want to learn from the failings of others. An awful lot of them, don't.
  crisfitz Chief Commissioner

Location: Enroute somewhere
OTSI will publish a report...Someday...

For example, the ATSB published a report into a safeworking breach at Kilbride 17 January 2018, following an incident in May 2014. Nearly 3.5 years after the incident. We're still waiting for the investigation to conclude into a derailment at Kankool in February 2015, a SPAD & derailment at Hornsby in December 2015, and a host of others.


As a former ATSB investigator I can assure you that:

b) the chances of seeing the report before 2020 is VERY remote. Usually looking at 12 months just to get the first draft done, then there's the countless reviews by DIPS (directly interested parties) and management.
crisfitz
And that's where I have a problem. It is not the fault of the investigators themselves, not do I have a quarrel with them. But where other crew can learn from an incident, they should not be left swinging until Groups A through T have had their say and the report sanitised so as to not ruffle too many feathers.

Still, crew (and operators) need to want to learn from the failings of others. An awful lot of them, don't.
"KRviator"


Couldn't agree more. One of the major reasons for quitting was that the report took WAY to long to get out - making it basically useless for the purposes of learning anything.

I will say the reports rarely got any sanitation as you suggest, more management (middle vs senior) arguing over the structure and language of the report. And that'd take months!! Often we had to completely change the tone or argument just so the backlash would be minimal -  no matter how strong the evidence.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
I will say the reports rarely got any sanitation as you suggest, more management (middle vs senior) arguing over the structure and language of the report. And that'd take months!! Often we had to completely change the tone or argument just so the backlash would be minimal -  no matter how strong the evidence.
crisfitz
Isn't this the same thing?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Buffer stops at newer locations, such as Chatswood Turnback, are of the energy absorbing type. Such buffer stops grip the rails with a bit of looseness, and there is a length of track, say 25m, that absorbs the looseness. After being hit, the absorbing buffer stops need to be moved back to the original position.

Not all situations have space for the absorbing track.

A badly designed buffer stop is at Macarthur, where the buffers are right at the end of the platform, the  buffers is of the fixed type, and there is plenty of space for a 100m absorbing track, if any one bother to design one.

Sometimes there is a timed train stop to trip the brakes if it is going too fast. Central ESR turnback ends in a solid concrete wall with no room for an absorbing track. CMIIAW, but I think there is timed intermediate train stop.
awsgc24
Issue for Richmond is the track ends and trains stop basically a few metres away from the footpath. If you put a 25m absorbing buffer in you'd block the road. The station can however be made longer to compensate.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Solutions are sometimes not so easy nor is arriving at actual causes.
By way of example, look at the Victorian Siemens trains where, initially, it was all put down to driver error. Quick and easy!
But very detailed engineering investigation ultimately proved otherwise.
If for any reason the train is 'not attached' sufficiently to the track (insufficient adhesion) whether it be caused by rail or wheel condition no amount of gee whiz braking systems are going to be of much help.

If we still had guards he could have an anchor attached to a piece of string that he could throw out the cab window.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
If we still had guards he could have an anchor attached to a piece of string that he could throw out the cab window.
"YM-Mundrabilla"
Nah! The anchor would bite and pull the train's bum off.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Earlier today, two 49 class locomotives were sent to Richmond to assist in moving A42.

They were surplus to requirement; A42 can move under its own. The plan was, from what I understand, to place it in the storage siding at Richmond.

There is just one small problem.

As the couplings are knackered, the train is being held together with chains. Which broke. They're still trying to move it out of Platform 2. It's clear of the points and trains can still use Platform 1.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The waratah looked like it did a pretty decent job of absorbing the impact. It has apparently moved under it's own power this afternoon into the siding. So maybe it isn't a dead sailor yet.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Earlier today, two 49 class locomotives were sent to Richmond to assist in moving A42.

They were surplus to requirement; A42 can move under its own. The plan was, from what I understand, to place it in the storage siding at Richmond.

There is just one small problem.

As the couplings are knackered, the train is being held together with chains. Which broke. They're still trying to move it out of Platform 2. It's clear of the points and trains can still use Platform 1.
s3_gunzel
WTF did they do to the towing chains?QuestionShocked They're rated for a 1000 tonne level-ground pull and around 450 tonnes for a 1:77 grade, as you'd encounter out of Richmond on the Up Exclamation

Even averaging 50-tonnes per car, an 8-car A-set is under the limit, the more so as they aren't trying to pull the whole train with the chain.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Who knows?
Did the chains really break?
Were they the proper chains?
Did the chains pull out of the attaching points?
Are there experienced recovery crews still about?
  ivahri Train Controller

Who knows?
Did the chains really break?
Were they the proper chains?
Did the chains pull out of the attaching points?
Are there experienced recovery crews still about?
YM-Mundrabilla
They were under a bit of pressure at the time so someone went and got a few lengths of this. It does say it is strong!

https://www.bunnings.com.au/grunt-6mm-x-30m-high-strength-rope_p4310550



Richard

ps. just kidding...
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
They were surplus to requirement
s3_gunzel
I'd like to rescind this comment. The two 49s are back at Richmond again today; I presume that even though A42 can move under its own, the attempt to do so yesterday... didn't go well, and they're going to attempt to tow again.

They have more time today (rather than the ~90 minutes they had yesterday after the two locos got there).
  M636C Minister for Railways

The "Daily Telegraph" is talking about ATP, probably without understanding what it consists of....

However, having visited Hornsby frequently before the recent changes, watching the speed controlling trips drop successively as a train entered platform 2, I wondered whether Richmond had a similar set of speed controlling train stops. After all, at Hornsby all that would happen is that you pass a signal at danger, while at Richmond you actually hit the buffer stops.

I'm pretty sure that platform 2 at Richmond was the "through" track which took you through the park and on to Kurrajong. So the buffers date from after that period.

Peter
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
The only train stops at Richmond are the ones on the up at each signal.

On another note, given the photos from pre-closure of the Kurrajong line, I believe that Richmond was re-“aligned” after the closure. Given all the buffer stops are of the same type, this makes the most sense. I’ll just point out that I also post-date the Kurrajong closure.
  TomBTR Chief Train Controller

Location: near Sydney

I'm pretty sure that platform 2 at Richmond was the "through" track which took you through the park and on to Kurrajong. So the buffers date from after that period.
M636C
Platform 1 (on the north side) was curved towards the south at its western end so the track could cross the park at an angle. It was straightened some time after electrification, IIRC . As long as I can remember there were buffers at the end of both tracks but they used to be the old type intended to match rolling stock with buffers and screw couplings.
  scott4570 Chief Train Controller

The "Daily Telegraph" is talking about ATP, probably without understanding what it consists of....

However, having visited Hornsby frequently before the recent changes, watching the speed controlling trips drop successively as a train entered platform 2, I wondered whether Richmond had a similar set of speed controlling train stops. After all, at Hornsby all that would happen is that you pass a signal at danger, while at Richmond you actually hit the buffer stops.

Peter
From information and observation, facing to Down Trains, there is a Outer Home Signal on the approach to East Richmond and a Home Signal for entry into the Platforms and Siding at Richmond. Each of these Signals have a "train stop" device.

There is an "intermediate" train stop device located shortly after traversing the East Richmond Level Crossing and would be lowered when the the Home Signal is cleared.
If the Home Signal is at Stop, the intermediate train stop will lower only when the train has been timed on the approach to that train stop. The train will need to sufficiently reduce speed before the train stop will lower.

There are no other "train stop" devices between the Home Signal and the Buffer Stops.
  normw Junior Train Controller

Given EOT (End of Track) is, in any form (Buffer stop, brick wall, sleepers), an obstruction in the signalling sense, it ought to be protected by a suitable braking distance. This suggests to me that entry to a platform that terminates at a buffer stop should be via a ground-based calling on (CO) type signal equipped with a train stop and automatic timed release if the approach speed is below a safe maximum.

As best I recall it, platform 1 (left, facing Sydney) was the original line to Kurrajong.
  scott4570 Chief Train Controller

According to a recently issued Weekly Notice, as from January 27, the Train Stop associated with the Down Home Signal for entry to the Platforms and Siding at Richmond has been altered to operate, as follows:-.

When this Signal is cleared, the train stop will remain in the raised position. This train stop will only lower when a train has been timed on the approach to that Signal. The train will need to reduce speed to 20kph or less for the train stop to lower.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
I wonder what the 'Skid Distance' is for the current fleet of Suburban rolling stock is?

Once past this 'Stop', there is still nothing to stop a Driver from opening the 'throttle' if he/she was of a mind too.

Not inconceivable when you consider the missing flight MH370 and that Pilot who waited until the Captain left the cockpit and dove into a mountain.
Committing suicide by driving a Train into a set of Stop blocks at 20 KPH isnt likely to succeed but People can do weird things during a mental episode.
As an additional safety feature, I am sure there are electronics available today that once passing a 'location', it would not allow the Train to increase its speed and could monitor the speed and if its too high, cut the power also applying the Brakes if this is not already being done so by the Driver.
This would only need to be functional at Dead ends and maybe where Derails turn a Train into an unsafe area.
  scott4570 Chief Train Controller

As an additional safety feature, I am sure there are electronics available today that once passing a 'location', it would not allow the Train to increase its speed and could monitor the speed and if its too high, cut the power also applying the Brakes if this is not already being done so by the Driver.
This would only need to be functional at Dead ends and maybe where Derails turn a Train into an unsafe area.
gordon_s1942
This safety feature would be similar to a system known as Automatic Train Protection (ATP).

This system was, of recent times, being trialled on the Blue Mountains line using a specially equipped Intercity V set, together with approapriate devices placed along the track. The system was to ensure that the train did not exceed the maximum speed in accordance with the Signalling aspect for the section ahead.

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