The death of Victoria’s trouble-plagued myki system has begun

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 05 Feb 2018 09:19
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Got to the station some months ago on a Sunday morning.
Touch on - card expired - get stuffed.
How does one get to a manned station to get new card? Catch train without ticket and risk umpteen dollar fine plus, of course, lose 20 minutes waiting for next train having got new card.
Not me! Plan B. Use spare MYKI card.
But I should not have had to do so.
No doubt it was all MY FAULT.Sad
I was notified by email that my card was going to expire in a month or two. Was your card registered to you?
I prefer to travel anonymously so my card(s) is/are not registered.
It has bugger all to do with Daniel Andrews, Jacinta Allan and their sycophants when and where I travel (yet!).
YM-Mundrabilla
Too bad. Both my wife and I were notified when our cards were due to expire and we just called in at our local station to get a new one. I don't care who knows where and when I catch a train, tram or rarely, bus.

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  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
I think V/Line still has a paper ticket system on some routes?
All the intercity/long distance services are still paper based.  Albury, shepparton, bairnsdale, swan hill,and warrnambool still use paper tickets.
tazzer96
You can still buy a paper ticket at my local station if you ask.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Absolute BS. I have bought Opal at Airport Domestic, Central and Town Hall stations to name just three, within the last 3 months visiting Sydney.
Valvegear

Not at Artarmon 7 months ago. Single-trip, which was adequate for the task, having looked it up on the net beforehand. The journey cost about $10 whereas it cost about $6 on an accompanying Opal Card. The point is not which stations sell some form of ticket but those that don’t sell any form of ticket. You don’t want to be dropped off by friends at a station that doesn’t, a la Rushall, which is not a major destination for either interstate or overseas tourists by any stretch of the imagination. As I understand it, card sales and top ups at stations were not part of the original Opal system. The top up and single trip machines were added at some point later.


No; but you deal directly with the utilities involved or the option of some other business place which is set up for customer convenience. You don't have the easy, direct dealing option with Myki, and that is the big fault of the system.
Valvegear

From bitter experience, these days most power companies don’t have a shopfront for face-to-face contact. Any dealings are via telephone, email or mail. From pleasant experience, the myki call centre handles queries well.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

I really don't get what all the fuss is about.  Personally, I've literally never had a problem with Myki in the all my years of commuting in Melbourne.

Last year I spent time in Singapore, Japan and Taiwan, getting around entirely on the subways etc.  Every system used a card like Myki, and all required you to buy the card from the machine for a few bucks on top of the actual fare.  Didn't see any tourists complaining there.  In Japan the credit you put on the cards also works for the vending machines, which was pretty handy.

I also regularly deal with Japanese visitors to Melbourne for my work, none of them seem to have any issue with Myki.  

The complaints seem to come almost entirely from Australians.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I really don't get what all the fuss is about.  Personally, I've literally never had a problem with Myki in the all my years of commuting in Melbourne.

The complaints seem to come almost entirely from Australians.
Adogs
Lucky you. You, however, are just one user.

I as another user have had quite a few problems with Myki. The ones that spring straight to mind are

- original card failing resulting in me having to get a new one from the PTV Hub before they would let me travel which in turn resulted in me missing my train to Castlemaine. (and BTW the balance didn't transfer to the new card for over 48 hours resulting in me effectively paying twice for my trip)

- card failing to touch on at Victoria Park resulting in a run in with the Authorised Officers at West Richmond who, despite my card clearly showing that I spend around $250 a month on the card wanted to detain me.

- on at least 3 occasions I have been overcharged for country trips including (as detailed elsewhere) when our train ran over an hour late, the system timed me out, charged me the default full fare and then another fare for catching my Metro connection. And when you get overcharged the system really shows how bad it is, the most recent one took 3 weeks to get refunded and even then only when I told them I had raised the issue with the Ombudsman.

If I had the time and the money (of which I have neither) I would run an action against the PTV as MYKI is clearly not fit for purpose under Australian consumer law. I actually wrote to a well know Melbourne barrister who does a bit of pro bono work in this space but didn't even get a reply (which I took to mean that I was barking up the wrong tree)

BG
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
It's always interesting reading Myki threads to see what people class as faults or problems. A lot of the time its government policy that they don't like, such as cost of the card or lack of a single use / one day card, but 'Myki' is still blamed for this.

Information regarding card expiration notifications, and where and where not to buy different types of tickets is readily available to anyone who shows some initiative and has a look.

There will always be anomalies (a very late train for example) and the occasional glitch which occurs on all ticketing systems, but the hysteria around Myki is simply laughable most of the time.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Still see the used Myki touch on and off points at Albury station. Never activated.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
but the hysteria around Myki is simply laughable most of the time.
jakar
Whose being hysterical? It is an OK system when it works although it is not a patch on what we were told it would be and paid an eye watering sum for via our taxes.

When it doesn't work it can cause severe inconvenience to customers who then have to waste valuable time and money to set right themselves.

If a private business carried on the way they do they would be out of business. They would have their abiliity to accept credit cards revoked for a start for continuously failing to refund customers in a timely manner. As someone in small business who has been threatened with that before over just 1 incident I can talk from experience.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I really don't get what all the fuss is about.  Personally, I've literally never had a problem with Myki in the all my years of commuting in Melbourne.

The complaints seem to come almost entirely from Australians.

If I had the time and the money (of which I have neither) I would run an action against the PTV as MYKI is clearly not fit for purpose under Australian consumer law. I actually wrote to a well know Melbourne barrister who does a bit of pro bono work in this space but didn't even get a reply (which I took to mean that I was barking up the wrong tree)

BG
BrentonGolding

Maybe the barrister is happy with his myki...Wink

On one occasion around 4 years ago I was headed to the Airport via the Craigieburn line and the bus...not to be confused with Skybus and my myki pass had run out because I was on leave and I thought I had $$ on my myki money.

I inadvertently travelled from Ballan to Footscray where I changed and ran to a connection to North Melbourne to connect with the Craigieburn. However my myki money was also low and I effectively travelled from Ballan to North Melbourne with insufficient $$ of myki money.
At North Melbourne I had time to chuck $20 on to my myki money and headed towards the airport. Somewhere around Moonee Ponds the ticket checkers joined the train and checked mykis for miscreants and ne'r-do-wells who were freeloading on the system and I had the time to ask the ticket checker what would happen if...and I explained my inadvertent 'free' ride from Ballan to North Melbourne.
He said they always check a persons myki history before pressing charges or removing the miscreant from the train and as I had an exemplary myki record my concerns and excuse would have been acknowledged and given the ok.

Mike.

(killing time at work due to the Ballarat line fatal and present shortage of replacement buses)
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Brenton, there are always comments like this when it comes to Myki:

Myki is an unmitigated disaster.
Valvegear

which are usually unsubstantiated.

If you take two slightly different situations, one being a failed bank card and the other a failed Myki, you could almost put your house on it that despite similar procedures to go through (going into a bank or station / ptv hub etc or phone call) that the failed bank card would barely get a mention on a forum or social media, but a failed Myki will end up with a 2000 word rant on every possible social media platform about how rubbish Myki is and so on and so on.

There's just something about it that makes people become slightly irrational!
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Myki was way over budget, and way over time. The time it took to cover the State was appalling. One ridiculous excuse which was trotted out was that there was a big area and large population to cover - tell that to the Japanese. Despite there being several very good systems in existence already, this was not good enough for our mandarins - they had to go out and re-invent the wheel.
And, despite jakar's valiant attempts to defend the indefensible, there are still too many errors and failures, and it is patently visitor-unfriendly. This will remain so until a single trip ticket can be bought at a station or on a bus or tram.

There's just something about it that makes people become slightly irrational!
jakar
Not quite - it's the ticketing process that's irrational.
  N463 Locomotive Driver

Is Myki actually going to be replaced at all?
Most of the coverage of the proposed changes seem to me to suggest extending the existing system to allow people to use their phone instead of carrying a Myki card (but still using all of the other associated Myki infrastructure). Does anyone know if there is actually any plans to replace the Myki system (as opposed to Myki cards)?


Brenton, there are always comments like this when it comes to Myki:

Myki is an unmitigated disaster.
-Valvegear

which are usually unsubstantiated.
jakar

The reliability of the Myki system when it was initially rolled out was significantly worse then it is today. This was at it's worst around 2012-13 (which was also when the system was being introduced to Melbourne, regional areas having had it a few years earlier). Back then the Myki machines would not be working (all Myki readers on the bus showing a red light and a message telling you to use another reader) every 2nd or 3rd trip. Since then the system has improved considerably (although it is by no means flawless).

However most people's (especially in Melbourne) first experiences of using Myki largely coincided with the time at which the reliability of Myki was at it's worst. Unfortunately, poor first impressions tend to stick, and when people expect the system not to work, even a minor failure (such as a card wearing out) will reinforce this expectation. Community expectations are made worse by the fact that there are still several major limitations due to either government cutbacks from the original project, or excessive bureaucracy.

No short term ticket option (You have to purchase a $6 Myki and load a minimum of $2 credit before you can travel, and you also have to find somewhere that will sell you a Myki). Myki did originally have a short term ticket, this was a blue cardboard ticket (plain white on the back) with a message encouraging people to save some money by geting a Myki next time (The fares for short term tickets were a little higher then for Myki money), and a some squiggly lines that were supposed to be some sort of art???. There were several different designs of these, and they were the same size as a standard Myki card. The cardboard was a little thicker than a Metcard, and there was no print on the reverse. When making additional trips before expiring, they could be touched on at a Myki reader the same as a normal Myki card could be. When Myki was first introduced to regional town buses, passengers were able to buy these short term tickets from the driver (available in either 2 hour from the next hour, or daily). I believe that short term tickets were also planed for Melbourne, which would also have been available from bus drivers, or from vending machines on board trams. I am not sure if they were intended to be available from train stations or not.
Due to cutbacks by the previous government, short term tickets were never rolled out in Melbourne, and they were withdrawn from regional areas a few months after Melbourne switched off the Metcard system. This left us with the ridiculous situation where a visitor, or occasional traveler, or someone who's Myki has been lost/left behind/malfunctioned now has to purchase a new Myki for $6 + minimum $2 credit to be legally allowed to travel. And good luck doing that if you are travelling by tram, as there is no way to buy a ticket on board.

There are too many tram stops and even train stations where there is nowhere to purchase a Myki. This is especially bad considering that you can't buy a Myki on board a tram....

Then there are the times when the system fails to calculate the correct fare. Whilst this has never happened to me, there are enough reports of this still happening (see the above post by @BrentonGolding ) for me to believe that this is a real problem. Furthermore, when things do go wrong, the bureaucracy that one has to go through to sort this out is another problem


The time it took to cover the State was appalling.
Valvegear

In truth, the rollout still isn't finished. V/Line busses (sorry coaches) and long distance train services are still using paper tickets, however these were also supposed to have got Myki


Myki was way over budget, and way over time.
Valvegear

Interestingly enough one of the original reasons for the state developing Myki itself was that it would be cheaper (over the lifetime of the system) then continuing to pay OneLink for the right to use Metcard, or acquiring some other existing system. There would be a substantially higher initial development cost, to be offset by a lower annual cost. Obviously with the cost overruns when Myki was first developed, it will take a longer period of time for the initial investment to pay off.
It would be interesting to find out how the total cost of Myki compares to what the cost of continuing to run the Metcard and paper tickets would have been.

N463
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The proposed new payment technology is really only creating a virtual myki; an evolution of myki. Smart rings and credit cards can fail, exceed limits, get lost or forgotten just as easily as a myki. If, for example, you forget your credit card not only can you not use it as a myki but you can’t draw money out of an ATM or use it at a myki machine to buy a myki. Details of the implementation, in terms of accessing external databases, determining type of card, eg Full Fare or Concession, how money is deducted and transferred, etc, would be interesting to know.

The extra cost of providing the service should be analysed in detail and, given that there will be additional third-parties involved, IF there is a significant extra cost compared to the existing third-party commissions then a surcharge, say 5%, should be added for those using smart rings or credit cards. As public transport is already subsidised, the extra costs will either reduce the amount available at the pointy end or put an extra burden on the long suffering taxpayer.

If  a surcharge is to be introduced, a better way would be to adopt the approach of the gas and electricity companies, ie put all prices up 5% then offer a 5% discount to those using a real myki (the actual percentages could be weighted for predicted virtual myki versus real myki use).
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Myki was way over budget, and way over time. The time it took to cover the State was appalling. One ridiculous excuse which was trotted out was that there was a big area and large population to cover - tell that to the Japanese. Despite there being several very good systems in existence already, this was not good enough for our mandarins - they had to go out and re-invent the wheel.
And, despite jakar's valiant attempts to defend the indefensible, there are still too many errors and failures, and it is patently visitor-unfriendly. This will remain so until a single trip ticket can be bought at a station or on a bus or tram.

There's just something about it that makes people become slightly irrational!
Not quite - it's the ticketing process that's irrational.
Valvegear
I would argue that the issue isn't the fact that they reinvented the wheel but rather the fact that they tried to do it cheaply by getting an inexperienced person to do it using cheap wood AND cutting back the scope mid-project so we ended up with a series of spokes.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Will the new system exclude those who don't have bank accounts?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Will the new system exclude those who don't have bank accounts?
Myrtone
I don't think it's actually getting replaced thus myki cards would still be in use however if you want contactless then you would need to have a bank account with a linked credit or debit card (no keycards or the like as they do not have tap functionality).
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Another nice little trick of the Myki system - the damnfool design of the readers on Melbourne trams.  A recessed area with a rim that leaves a gap between it and the face, so that Myki cards can get caught and stuck, or caught and then flicked out, ending up anywhere. It happened to me today and, as I watched, I saw four other instances of the same thing inside ten minutes. The NSW Opal readers are circular pads which beat the Myki hands down.
  Engineeringlogic Station Master

What troubles plague myki?
kitchgp
Myki is prehistorically slow!!! Last time I was home it took 3-4 seconds for it to register. The London system is designed to respond in under 0.5 seconds, ( closer to 0.3sec i seem to remember reading) and will accept any card (dedicated oyster cards are pretty much extinct). Considering the cost of the Myki system vs London's ( lets not open that discussion up again!!) Myki needs a radical overhaul to stay relevant moving forward.   The ticketing system fare structure should also move from time based to distance ( like Singapore, Washington DC etc. )
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

4 secs is the time a traffic light is amber in a 60kph zone. It doesn't take that long for a myki to register.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

It takes around a second in my estimation for the slowest old-style readers to respond. Of course, this is severely worsened by people who impatiently start wiggling their card around and banging it on the reader when it doesn’t respond as quickly as a PayPass reader, which is a not unreasonable reaction (but some education wouldn’t be a waste of time).

The new readers are great and work as they should.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I'm a power walker and almost NOBODY walks as fast as I do. 16 blocks a day since the time of the Sprinter is plenty of practice...but I digress.

The readers at Southern Cross that are at the wider gates that are often open with an official standing aside can be read by me at my power walking speed as I touch on or off without even breaking my stride.

However I do have to slow down as I touch on at the readers with opening gates, but even with those readers, a leap of faith that the gate will open a micro-second before I walk into it allows me to walk briskly through those gates as well.

Mike.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Another dead Myki card for me on Friday which is 3 in 2 years. This means another trip to a premium station this weekend before I can start my trip back to Castlemaine on Monday as my first leg is a bus followed by Metro train to SC from an unmanned station.

If it is like last time this will also mean that the chunk of cash that i put on it just before I left Castlemaine won't be transferred over to the new card for days meaning that once again i effectively have to double pay for my trips this week which I can ill afford at the moment.

BG
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Another dead Myki card for me on Friday which is 3 in 2 years. This means another trip to a premium station this weekend before I can start my trip back to Castlemaine on Monday as my first leg is a bus followed by Metro train to SC from an unmanned station.
BrentonGolding
That's either very unlucky or .... The only failed Myki I have had (and I have had them since their introduction) was one which was physically damaged through being in my wallet, in my back pocket, throughout a trip to Europe. After being sat on for so long without even moving it, the card cracked. Have you had similar failures of your credit or debit cards?

My Myki card is no longer carried in my wallet when travelling - it's in my luggage.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Another dead Myki card for me on Friday which is 3 in 2 years. This means another trip to a premium station this weekend before I can start my trip back to Castlemaine on Monday as my first leg is a bus followed by Metro train to SC from an unmanned station.

If it is like last time this will also mean that the chunk of cash that i put on it just before I left Castlemaine won't be transferred over to the new card for days meaning that once again i effectively have to double pay for my trips this week which I can ill afford at the moment.

BG
BrentonGolding
Presumably one has to walk to the premium station as if you travel by train and the goons get you you will be fined because THEIR MYKI card is defective.Confused

I always carry a spare MYKI card.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Another dead Myki card for me on Friday which is 3 in 2 years. This means another trip to a premium station this weekend before I can start my trip back to Castlemaine on Monday as my first leg is a bus followed by Metro train to SC from an unmanned station.

If it is like last time this will also mean that the chunk of cash that i put on it just before I left Castlemaine won't be transferred over to the new card for days meaning that once again i effectively have to double pay for my trips this week which I can ill afford at the moment.

BG
Presumably one has to walk to the premium station as if you travel by train and the goons get you you will be fined because THEIR MYKI card is defective.Confused

I always carry a spare MYKI card.
YM-Mundrabilla
Got a lift to Heidelberg to get a new card, didn't want to chance it in case of Metro's hired goons being out and about. The $50 that I put on my old card just before I travelled yesterday will be transferred over to the new card in 7 - 10 days! And yes, I do carry it in my wallet with my other cards and no, nothing has gone wrong with either of my 2 credit cards or my debit card in that time. This card developed a small crack at one end and apparently that is it, doesn't work any more.

I have said this before but i will say it again. MYKI is not fit for purpose and the PTV should be forced to replace it.

among it's many glaring faults

- How can it take 7-10 days to transfer a balance over in this day and age, that is just insane.
- The cards are too fragile and break to easily
- When the card doesn't work any more why do I have to go to a Premium station to get a replacement issued?

The 7-10 days bit will be referred to the PT Advocate and if I am not satisfied with the result I am going to go one further this time and take this up with the federal gov't, this product is unfit for purpose and should be withdrawn and replace with something that actually works. a system where you can choose to use your phone, credit card or a combination to pay your fare not a dinky toy plastic card that breaks and leaves you unable to pay and at the risk of a whopping great fine, a system that more reflects the modern age that we live in.

BG

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