3801 Boiler

 
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Bearings like to run.
This is why there are rules relating to the bearings of rolling stock which is stored or otherwise inactive for long periods.
I would have to wonder whether the bearings on 3830 would be much better.
How do you inspect these bearings without removing and disassembling the things?

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  M636C Minister for Railways

Bearings like to run.
This is why there are rules relating to the bearings of rolling stock which is stored or otherwise inactive for long periods.
I would have to wonder whether the bearings on 3830 would be much better.
How do you inspect these bearings without removing and disassembling the things?
YM-Mundrabilla
3830 has been stored for about one fifth of the time 3801 has been inactive, so the chances are very good that it has better bearings.

I don't think the bearings can be inspected at all with the axles in the locomotive frame unless the seals are removable.

When removed from the axle the SKF bearings can be rotated through 180 degrees to inspect the outer race.
The inner race would be harder.

The bearings can be checked when running by using a system that measures the frequency of sound generated by the bearing and by analysing specific frequencies the types of defects in the bearings can be determined. This could be done most conveniently with the wheelset out of the frame and using a drive system to spin the wheels. The speed of rotation would have to be known, of course.

This would be much faster than dismantling the bearings and would mean that only wheelsets and bearings with defects need be dismantled.

Peter
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Thanks Peter.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Bearings like to run.
This is why there are rules relating to the bearings of rolling stock which is stored or otherwise inactive for long periods.
I would have to wonder whether the bearings on 3830 would be much better.
How do you inspect these bearings without removing and disassembling the things?
3830 has been stored for about one fifth of the time 3801 has been inactive, so the chances are very good that it has better bearings.

I don't think the bearings can be inspected at all with the axles in the locomotive frame unless the seals are removable.

When removed from the axle the SKF bearings can be rotated through 180 degrees to inspect the outer race.
The inner race would be harder.

The bearings can be checked when running by using a system that measures the frequency of sound generated by the bearing and by analysing specific frequencies the types of defects in the bearings can be determined. This could be done most conveniently with the wheelset out of the frame and using a drive system to spin the wheels. The speed of rotation would have to be known, of course.

This would be much faster than dismantling the bearings and would mean that only wheelsets and bearings with defects need be dismantled.

Peter
M636C
Thanks Peter Smile

Now the follow on question about the rumour's credibility using material from Peter's post. Peter wrote; I don't think the bearings can be inspected at all with the axles in the locomotive frame unless the seals are removable.

Are the axles in the frame at the moment? If axles are in frame at the moment than the bearings were not inspected recently or the seals were removed for inspection.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
I believe the bearings on 6029 were replaced, and these are the same general type as 3801. I don't know if they are exactly the same.
M636C
When I wrote my reply above, I was thinking of the connecting rod big end roller bearings, not the ones on the axles. They will be much harder to replace.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I believe the bearings on 6029 were replaced, and these are the same general type as 3801. I don't know if they are exactly the same.
When I wrote my reply above, I was thinking of the connecting rod big end roller bearings, not the ones on the axles. They will be much harder to replace.
apw5910
Thanks APW5910 for your clarification.

I thought that there may have been some misunderstanding although I didn't even know whether the 60 class had roller bearings on all axles.

I find it interesting, however, with that being confirmed that given its length of time idle under restoration why/what is different between 6029 and 3801 in this regard.

Granted 3801's bearings are only a rumour but something does not appear to add up to me between the two locomotives. I also assume that we may not be only talking about 3801's driving axles but its leading bogie too?

As I say it's all a malicious rumour (I hope) but an interesting discussion nevertheless.
  ivahri Train Controller

If its a "malicious rumour" not one THNSW diehard has called BS on Facebook yet (in nearly a week)... given how they quickly jump down any critics throat (the circumference of my throat has been expanded by them!) I wouldn't bet my house on it being malicious... I admire your religious like loyalty to the cause but it is dangerous when that loyalty verges on blind.


Richard
  a6et Minister for Railways

I believe the bearings on 6029 were replaced, and these are the same general type as 3801. I don't know if they are exactly the same.
When I wrote my reply above, I was thinking of the connecting rod big end roller bearings, not the ones on the axles. They will be much harder to replace.
Thanks APW5910 for your clarification.

I thought that there may have been some misunderstanding although I didn't even know whether the 60 class had roller bearings on all axles.

I find it interesting, however, with that being confirmed that given its length of time idle under restoration why/what is different between 6029 and 3801 in this regard.

Granted 3801's bearings are only a rumour but something does not appear to add up to me between the two locomotives. I also assume that we may not be only talking about 3801's driving axles but its leading bogie too?

As I say it's all a malicious rumour (I hope) but an interesting discussion nevertheless.
YM-Mundrabilla
The garratts had grease points on all the side rods, and a fitter was involved in the greasing of them.  I understand that the main axle bearings were RB types.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

If its a "malicious rumour" not one THNSW diehard has called BS on Facebook yet (in nearly a week)... given how they quickly jump down any critics throat (the circumference of my throat has been expanded by them!) I wouldn't bet my house on it being malicious... I admire your religious like loyalty to the cause but it is dangerous when that loyalty verges on blind.


Richard
ivahri
There has been no official response from the likes of Rob Mason yet.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I merely allow the benefit of any doubts.

I know nothing but nothing surprises me these days .....

Never believe anything until it is officially denied.
(Humphrey Appleby in Yes Minister)

On the other hand there have been several assurances over the years that all the mechanical stuff would have been done long before the boiler arrived. This makes me wonder about 'plonking the boiler in the frames now, blow the whistle and away we go'..
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
Do ' inboard' roller bearings come in 'halves' or does one have to press the wheels off with everything that goes with that; axles, machining, quartering etc) to fit them, please?
If so we will never see 3801 run again.
Will the bearings on any other 38 be any better than 3801?
I'm not sure that the tyres need to be removed from the wheels.

Peter
M636C
They must be removed if the correct interference is to be maintained between wheel and axle.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Do ' inboard' roller bearings come in 'halves' or does one have to press the wheels off with everything that goes with that; axles, machining, quartering etc) to fit them, please?
If so we will never see 3801 run again.
Will the bearings on any other 38 be any better than 3801?
I'm not sure that the tyres need to be removed from the wheels.

Peter
They must be removed if the correct interference is to be maintained between wheel and axle.
NSWGR 3827
Thanks 3827.
Can you then refit the same tyres to the same wheels once they have been removed?
As I have said, no one knows if any of the axlebox issues are true or not but this is, to me, an interesting technical discussion regardless. Time will tell, no doubt  .............
  ivahri Train Controller

If its a "malicious rumour" not one THNSW diehard has called BS on Facebook yet (in nearly a week)... given how they quickly jump down any critics throat (the circumference of my throat has been expanded by them!) I wouldn't bet my house on it being malicious... I admire your religious like loyalty to the cause but it is dangerous when that loyalty verges on blind.


Richard
There has been no official response from the likes of Rob Mason yet.
nswtrains
I don't believe a bad news story because the public servant responsible hasn't publicly admitted to it... well that takes scepticism to a whole new level! Like Rob Mason isn't busting his guts to be the next to be tarred and feathered... wow, what a surprise.... pretty sure 99.9999999999999999999% of agency heads would also be ducking for cover!

The Vatican took its time admitting the earth was round. Bet you wouldn't have believed poor old Galileo either....
  BrigadierBrasso Station Staff

I believe the bearings on 6029 were replaced, and these are the same general type as 3801. I don't know if they are exactly the same.
When I wrote my reply above, I was thinking of the connecting rod big end roller bearings, not the ones on the axles. They will be much harder to replace.
Thanks APW5910 for your clarification.

I thought that there may have been some misunderstanding although I didn't even know whether the 60 class had roller bearings on all axles.

I find it interesting, however, with that being confirmed that given its length of time idle under restoration why/what is different between 6029 and 3801 in this regard.

Granted 3801's bearings are only a rumour but something does not appear to add up to me between the two locomotives. I also assume that we may not be only talking about 3801's driving axles but its leading bogie too?

As I say it's all a malicious rumour (I hope) but an interesting discussion nevertheless.
YM-Mundrabilla
6029s bearings were not replaced at restoration, despite the claims of the 6029 project managerCEO during the registration process (Ironically, that individual now works for THNSW and the 3801 project is something he has been employed on).
6029s main rod bearings were replaced after a Big end failed on the main line mid 2016.
Tally-Ho.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I believe the bearings on 6029 were replaced, and these are the same general type as 3801. I don't know if they are exactly the same.
When I wrote my reply above, I was thinking of the connecting rod big end roller bearings, not the ones on the axles. They will be much harder to replace.
Thanks APW5910 for your clarification.

I thought that there may have been some misunderstanding although I didn't even know whether the 60 class had roller bearings on all axles.

I find it interesting, however, with that being confirmed that given its length of time idle under restoration why/what is different between 6029 and 3801 in this regard.

Granted 3801's bearings are only a rumour but something does not appear to add up to me between the two locomotives. I also assume that we may not be only talking about 3801's driving axles but its leading bogie too?

As I say it's all a malicious rumour (I hope) but an interesting discussion nevertheless.
6029s bearings were not replaced at restoration, despite the claims of the 6029 project managerCEO during the registration process (Ironically, that individual now works for THNSW and the 3801 project is something he has been employed on).
6029s main rod bearings were replaced after a Big end failed on the main line mid 2016.
Tally-Ho.
BrigadierBrasso
Says a lot for the accreditation/registration process where the difference between 'bearings' and what are, in effect, 'roller bearing bushings' is not recognised.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Says a lot for the accreditation/registration process where the difference between 'bearings' and what are, in effect, 'roller bearing bushings' is not recognised.
YM-Mundrabilla
It's a different world now, with current generation diesel locos having automatic fail-safes on their fail-safes. Steam locos belong to an era when you could probably limp home with even a major fault using things like fencing wire.

Steam: Three minutes to find the fault and three days to fix it.

Diesel: Three days to find the fault and three minutes to fix it!

Fault finding may have improved with computer control...

The only automatic "fail-safe" I can think of on a steam loco are the fusible plugs. Any others?
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
Not automatic, more like manual controls but steam locos have at least 2 people on the footplate when running on a mainline so there is someone to notice things going wrong.  Also if you stop firing or fire incorrectly you run out of steam and the train will stop a lot faster than a diesel or electric loco running out of fuel (assuming full bunker/tanks etc at start of the trip).  

While not fitted in Victoria it was also possible to fit steam locos with gear to put the brakes on if they ran past signals, like they do with the electric trains, it was used in the UK.

More automation and controls are now possible with steam locos as there are automated, computer-controlled boilers in industry but they need to be in a modern loco design, our steam loco designs were mainly conservative using ideas proven elsewhere.  It would be interesting to see what would have happened if steam locos had evolved to use modern control systems
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Says a lot for the accreditation/registration process where the difference between 'bearings' and what are, in effect, 'roller bearing bushings' is not recognised.
It's a different world now, with current generation diesel locos having automatic fail-safes on their fail-safes. Steam locos belong to an era when you could probably limp home with even a major fault using things like fencing wire.

Steam: Three minutes to find the fault and three days to fix it.

Diesel: Three days to find the fault and three minutes to fix it!

Fault finding may have improved with computer control...

The only automatic "fail-safe" I can think of on a steam loco are the fusible plugs. Any others?
apw5910
I agree with the find and fix as you have spelt it out. Fusible plugs (plus safety valves) are about the only 'fail safe' items that I can think of on steam.

Given the apparent lack of experience in SOME areas of preservation and SOME accreditation authorities being a 'tick in a box' arrangement it is surely all the more important for all concerned to know precisely what is being ticked off on the one hand and have realistic knowledge as to how likely it is to be true on the other. For these reasons it is vital that correct, uniform and universally accepted terminology is used and understood by all concerned.

Accreditation should be more than shuffling paper and shifting blame/covering one's behind.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

YM, called "tick and flick" something your not satisfied that meets specs, push it up the line and watch them go water.

smeg covering /self preservation is the order of the day.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Says a lot for the accreditation/registration process where the difference between 'bearings' and what are, in effect, 'roller bearing bushings' is not recognised.
It's a different world now, with current generation diesel locos having automatic fail-safes on their fail-safes. Steam locos belong to an era when you could probably limp home with even a major fault using things like fencing wire.

Steam: Three minutes to find the fault and three days to fix it.

Diesel: Three days to find the fault and three minutes to fix it!

Fault finding may have improved with computer control...

The only automatic "fail-safe" I can think of on a steam loco are the fusible plugs. Any others?
I agree with the find and fix as you have spelt it out. Fusible plugs (plus safety valves) are about the only 'fail safe' items that I can think of on steam.

Given the apparent lack of experience in SOME areas of preservation and SOME accreditation authorities being a 'tick in a box' arrangement it is surely all the more important for all concerned to know precisely what is being ticked off on the one hand and have realistic knowledge as to how likely it is to be true on the other. For these reasons it is vital that correct, uniform and universally accepted terminology is used and understood by all concerned.

Accreditation should be more than shuffling paper and shifting blame/covering one's behind.
YM-Mundrabilla
Much of that saying in steam days was on steam, an hour to find the fault, and a day to fix, diesel a day to find the fault, and hour to fix.

It was more a general saying than in reality though.  There are a huge number of ways both steam and diesels could die on you.  Yes lack of steam, and not always because of poor firing skills either, as there was some loco's that were notorious for going well for a while and then would lay down on you, all on the same trip, then they would pick themselves up and go well, I know one 36cl that had that reputation, and was glad to see it set aside, as everytime I worked it, you could count on having a good half a trip to Goulburn and the other half, a nightmare and long night ahead at some point in the one trip.

Why did many of the single phase air pumps have the top of them fully dented on the main cover? easy to know when they ceased working and you had to go out on the footplate to whack that part of the pump with the coal pick to get it started again, especially on saturated loco's.  Failed dynamo's in some districts meant the engine was not allowed to work over many areas.

A diesel was a failure when you got 3 ground relays in succession, you had to time the first one, and when reset, then each subsequent relay, drop out and reset. On the third you stopped and contacted the nearest depot and mechanical staff.
As with steam, a compressor failure often meant you went nowhere.

One thing common with both for an engine failure was if the whistle/air horn was not operating. Safety of the public in areas arounf the rail lines, unless in a double, or MU, where the engines would be reversed and failed one goes in the shafts, unless the 2nd engine had a fault and could not lead, often happened.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
Do ' inboard' roller bearings come in 'halves' or does one have to press the wheels off with everything that goes with that; axles, machining, quartering etc) to fit them, please?
If so we will never see 3801 run again.
Will the bearings on any other 38 be any better than 3801?
I'm not sure that the tyres need to be removed from the wheels.

Peter
They must be removed if the correct interference is to be maintained between wheel and axle.
Thanks 3827.
Can you then refit the same tyres to the same wheels once they have been removed?
As I have said, no one knows if any of the axlebox issues are true or not but this is, to me, an interesting technical discussion regardless. Time will tell, no doubt  .............
YM-Mundrabilla
There is no reason why the same tyres cannot be reused unless they are heated above 450 deg C, which is the point where the structure of the steel changes permanently to become much softer.

It should also be possible to remove all the rollers from the Axle bearings to facilitate inspection, but if the races have to be replaced the tyres & wheels must come off.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
Says a lot for the accreditation/registration process where the difference between 'bearings' and what are, in effect, 'roller bearing bushings' is not recognised.
The only automatic "fail-safe" I can think of on a steam loco are the fusible plugs. Any others?
apw5910
Fusible plugs should not be called automatic fail safe devices.
They are there to warn the crew the crown has been exposed and they should take action immediately, they do not extinguish the fire as many people believe.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Do ' inboard' roller bearings come in 'halves' or does one have to press the wheels off with everything that goes with that; axles, machining, quartering etc) to fit them, please?
If so we will never see 3801 run again.
Will the bearings on any other 38 be any better than 3801?
I'm not sure that the tyres need to be removed from the wheels.

Peter
They must be removed if the correct interference is to be maintained between wheel and axle.
Thanks 3827.
Can you then refit the same tyres to the same wheels once they have been removed?
As I have said, no one knows if any of the axlebox issues are true or not but this is, to me, an interesting technical discussion regardless. Time will tell, no doubt  .............
There is no reason why the same tyres cannot be reused unless they are heated above 450 deg C, which is the point where the structure of the steel changes permanently to become much softer.

It should also be possible to remove all the rollers from the Axle bearings to facilitate inspection, but if the races have to be replaced the tyres & wheels must come off.
NSWGR 3827
Thanks 3827.
Something else that I have learned for today re the tyres. https://www.railpage.com.au/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

  a6et Minister for Railways

Says a lot for the accreditation/registration process where the difference between 'bearings' and what are, in effect, 'roller bearing bushings' is not recognised.
The only automatic "fail-safe" I can think of on a steam loco are the fusible plugs. Any others?
Fusible plugs should not be called automatic fail safe devices.
They are there to warn the crew the crown has been exposed and they should take action immediately, they do not extinguish the fire as many people believe.
NSWGR 3827
If a plug went that was not considered really bad, you had the option to work the engine to the nearest station and stow the train and drop the fire to prevent more damage, usually it was a slow process with a leak but it could go bad quick. In such circumstances and as per the first option, would depend on the ability to keep steam and water in the boiler.  In worst case you dropped the fire, and the fireman would go to the nearest station and rule 243 protection on the way with guard doing same at the other end of the train.

Regarding the tyres on 3801, were they not renewed some years back while still under 3801lLd's time but not that long before the change and 01 going to Thirlmere? Which really indicates that the tyres are in good order considering how little running it really has done since that.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

If its a "malicious rumour" not one THNSW diehard has called BS on Facebook yet (in nearly a week)... given how they quickly jump down any critics throat (the circumference of my throat has been expanded by them!) I wouldn't bet my house on it being malicious... I admire your religious like loyalty to the cause but it is dangerous when that loyalty verges on blind.


Richard
There has been no official response from the likes of Rob Mason yet.
I don't believe a bad news story because the public servant responsible hasn't publicly admitted to it... well that takes scepticism to a whole new level! Like Rob Mason isn't busting his guts to be the next to be tarred and feathered... wow, what a surprise.... pretty sure 99.9999999999999999999% of agency heads would also be ducking for cover!

The Vatican took its time admitting the earth was round. Bet you wouldn't have believed poor old Galileo either....
ivahri
I would trust Rob Mason rather than some of the nutters that inhabit face book.

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