East Werribee Rail Options

 
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Interesting article in the HeraldSun on Heavy Rail loop or driverless shuttle train to serve new $30 billion hub planned for East Werribee.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/future-melbourne/east-werribee-30bn-super-city-options-include-driverless-trains-rail-loop/news-story/c0b16b7c1782f5f9988e6f576423a80d

Sponsored advertisement

  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I did read this over coffee this very morning with some interest.  it would appear to me anyhow that heavy rail is really the only safe and efficient option as many people using the proposed service would want to travel further than just the end of a light rail service.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Another Option is to extend the Altona Loop from Westona to Point Cook and then to the southern border of this new development.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Another Option is to extend the Altona Loop from Westona to Point Cook and then to the southern border of this new development.
John.Z

That thought also occurred to me and then I thought not an express route to Melbourne as such.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
There's no actual shortage of university campuses in Melbourne; this is a development driven by developers interested in making money.

When I was last living in Melbourne that area was supposed to be the site of a new "justice precinct" or conglomerate of new prisons; they must have decided that "education district" sounded nicer and/or got the developers more interested.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
When I was last living in Melbourne that area was supposed to be the site of a new "justice precinct" or conglomerate of new prisons; they must have decided that "education district" sounded nicer and/or got the developers more interested.
don_dunstan
I think the locals kicked up enough of a stink about Melbourne "dumping" all of it's ne'er di wells on the Western Suburbs (despite the obvious employment benefits) that the government changed it's mind.

BG
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
When I was last living in Melbourne that area was supposed to be the site of a new "justice precinct" or conglomerate of new prisons; they must have decided that "education district" sounded nicer and/or got the developers more interested.
I think the locals kicked up enough of a stink about Melbourne "dumping" all of it's ne'er di wells on the Western Suburbs (despite the obvious employment benefits) that the government changed it's mind.

BG
BrentonGolding
They decided to build a big new prison at the existing "justice precinct" at Ravenhall instead. Personally I don't see the difference between a prison and a university - they both consume years of your life and you get nothing at the end of it.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

When I was last living in Melbourne that area was supposed to be the site of a new "justice precinct" or conglomerate of new prisons; they must have decided that "education district" sounded nicer and/or got the developers more interested.
I think the locals kicked up enough of a stink about Melbourne "dumping" all of it's ne'er di wells on the Western Suburbs (despite the obvious employment benefits) that the government changed it's mind.

BG
They decided to build a big new prison at the existing "justice precinct" at Ravenhall instead. Personally I don't see the difference between a prison and a university - they both consume years of your life and you get nothing at the end of it.
don_dunstan
Without Uni, I couldn't do the job I do today. Arts/Science and to a degree Business/Commerce I agree, but Medicine/Eng/Law do require further education from Secondary.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Another Option is to extend the Altona Loop from Westona to Point Cook and then to the southern border of this new development.

That thought also occurred to me and then I thought not an express route to Melbourne as such.
bevans
It doesn't need to be. Passengers can interchange at Laverton if they want express services.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Another Option is to extend the Altona Loop from Westona to Point Cook and then to the southern border of this new development.

That thought also occurred to me and then I thought not an express route to Melbourne as such.
It doesn't need to be. Passengers can interchange at Laverton if they want express services.
railblogger
Exactly. This southern route would not be about being express, it would be about increasing the presence of Rail Transport in an area critically under represented when compared to its counterparts in the East and South East. You just have to look at the Swanston St trams and the areas they serve in comparison. In conjunction with a rock solid, useable Bus Network, a southern route would see thousands of commuters switch from the west gate to the train in Point Cook, and would provide an additional rail corridor to build around in Werribee South
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Another Option is to extend the Altona Loop from Westona to Point Cook and then to the southern border of this new development.

That thought also occurred to me and then I thought not an express route to Melbourne as such.
It doesn't need to be. Passengers can interchange at Laverton if they want express services.
Exactly. This southern route would not be about being express, it would be about increasing the presence of Rail Transport in an area critically under represented when compared to its counterparts in the East and South East. You just have to look at the Swanston St trams and the areas they serve in comparison. In conjunction with a rock solid, useable Bus Network, a southern route would see thousands of commuters switch from the west gate to the train in Point Cook, and would provide an additional rail corridor to build around in Werribee South
John.Z
And would also fill Altona Loop trains.
  blowfish Junior Train Controller

Given the idea the is to make this a city with a local living population, why not light rail linking the precinct (and Werribee) with existing heavy rail?
  silvertrain80 Junior Train Controller

Location: stabled at newport
I don't like the sound of driver-less trains.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

How this is a great option, put another rail loop onto the Werribee line.

Option 1: extend the Altona line through Point Cooke and connect to the new precinct

Option 2: Build a new rail branch to Werribee South connecting the new precinct, and build the Metro 2 Tunnel.
This would mean a cheaper rail connection and a new direct tunnel connection into the Cbd and more capacity to the Werribee line, Williamstown/Laverton lines.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Heavy Rail seems like overkill to me. Yes they are projecting large numbers of people to live and work in the area, but it is to be a densely populated and geographically small area and thus, heavy rail wouldn't be the best fit.

I think the best option would see Hoppers Crossing station rebuilt (with the adjacent level crossing being eliminated in the process, naturally) with a cross platform connection to a light rail service. This light rail could provide direct access to the new precinct, via the Werribee Hospital. While at the other end it could either run into central Werribee, or it could run into Point Cook. This second option would provide Point Cook with a much improved connection to Werribee Line trains.

Driverless or not? Its largely irrelevant to me, I will leave that to the experts.
  Peter Spyker Train Controller

The driverless train option sounds like the usual pie-in-the-sky smeg that will never happen, just like the idea of a monorail to the airport.

And this will never work if passengers have to pay an additional toll on top of their usual Myki fare just to use this system. It wasn't entirely clear if this was what was meant, but it seemed like it.

We have a universal fare system for our network, and we should not be making special tolls for one particular area. If developers want to build in this area, they can put money into our system as as price for access.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
Heavy Rail seems like overkill to me. Yes they are projecting large numbers of people to live and work in the area, but it is to be a densely populated and geographically small area and thus, heavy rail wouldn't be the best fit.

I think the best option would see Hoppers Crossing station rebuilt (with the adjacent level crossing being eliminated in the process, naturally) with a cross platform connection to a light rail service. This light rail could provide direct access to the new precinct, via the Werribee Hospital. While at the other end it could either run into central Werribee, or it could run into Point Cook. This second option would provide Point Cook with a much improved connection to Werribee Line trains.

Driverless or not? Its largely irrelevant to me, I will leave that to the experts.
Gman_86
I agree that a heavy rail loop is probably not a good option. If a reserved corridor is being made available as part of the East Weribee development then there are a whole bunch of other high quality public transport options available:
  • A conventional Bus Rapid Transit/busway. Dead simple to build and can be linked in to existing bus routes in the area. The Route 190 Wyndham Vale - Werribee Station shuttle would be a good fit, for instance - it's a short route and it already uses high capacity buses (double-deckers during peak times). The downside is the high operating cost per passenger, although using regular buses and minimal infrastructure (including at-grade road crossings on the busway) keeps the capital costs very low. It's not very sexy, either - but hybrid-electric or fuel cell buses could be used to plump the environmental benefits.
  • O-Bahn style guided busway. More expensive than a regular busway, but it allows for higher vehicle speeds and use a narrower corridor. Has similar operational drawbacks. Given that the corridor is intended to be high density and could have lots of stops, I would suggest that it wouldn't be worth the money over a conventional busway unless a deliberately narrow corridor is being used.
  • Light rail. This is a step change in capital outlay as it would involve electrification and a dedicated tram fleet with its own servicing depot. You can certainly carry more people per tram than a bus, but your baseline operating costs are higher too. It would like nice though, which I certainly think would rank it highly in the minds of the developers who are also quite plainly not looking to actually spend much, if any, money themselves on the public transport system that they are graciously providing a corridor for.
  • Driverless light metro or (cue the Simpsons references) a monorail. Going driverless saves on operational costs and allows for a constantly high frequency service to be provided at all times of day (and night!). The big drawback is the need for complete grade separation as well as the need for a maintenance facility somewhere along the route.

If money was no object, I would advocate building a driverless light metro or monorail. Having a constantly high frequency service through a proposed educational and high density residential precinct with a railway station at each end would allow for essentially seamless transfers to trains. You get all of the advantages of a heavy rail loop line and none of the downsides.

Failing that, a conventional busway would be completely appropriate.

Now as for the 'extension' of Altona Loop services via Point Cook - that would be a self-licking ice-cream cone of a project. The connection between Westona and the Werribee East precinct would be massively more expensive than the rail loop. There's no reserved corridor through Point Cook - the closest you get is the wide median on Boardwalk Boulevard. Property acquisitions would be hideously expensive - and the alternatives are technically difficult. Tunnelling, cut-and-cover or trenching would be impractical given how close to sea level the whole area is. Elevated rail brings its own set of issues (mostly NIMBY-shaped) and would still need property acquistion. Sadly, this is just an example of the lack of foresight that Wyndham Council and the Point Cook developers showed when they drew up the plans for the estate - there's no useful linear reserves or a very wide median along any of the arterial roads in the suburb. Buses are the only solution for that problem, unfortunately.
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
Point Cook already has major problems with their Sewer System. So, tunneling is not an option, as I spoken with the Senior Engineer who got the Sewer System to stop blowing smeg into people's bathrooms out of their toilets, about the option of building a Rail Tunnel through the area and he just laughed at me and it wouldwou be possible.

Jack
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
I stopped reading after "driverless shuttle train". I wonder if it was the same people who thought of the airport monorail.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I stopped reading after "driverless shuttle train". I wonder if it was the same people who thought of the airport monorail.
Heihachi_73

Is this where we post a link to The Simpsons episode about the monorail Question
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

How this is a great option, put another rail loop onto the Werribee line.

Option 1: extend the Altona line through Point Cooke and connect to the new precinct

Option 2: Build a new rail branch to Werribee South connecting the new precinct, and build the Metro 2 Tunnel.
This would mean a cheaper rail connection and a new direct tunnel connection into the Cbd and more capacity to the Werribee line, Williamstown/Laverton lines.
James974
I'm not advocating first idea, as said above, highly expensive and unlikely to happen. Would of been ideal if planning was done to preserve the corridor before the development occurred.

But preserving a future heavy rail line through the new precinct down towards Werribee South as a new rail branch.
Also worth start planning to build Metro Tunnel 2. These are worth investigating. As well as the obvious station at Derrimut Road and extension of the Werribee line to Wyndham Vale.
  silvertrain80 Junior Train Controller

Location: stabled at newport
Where exactly is east Werribee? i've never heard of it before.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Where exactly is east Werribee? i've never heard of it before.
silvertrain80

Where the Research farm used to be, almost directly across the railway line from Hoppers Crossing.

Mike.
  silvertrain80 Junior Train Controller

Location: stabled at newport
Where exactly is east Werribee? i've never heard of it before.

Where the Research farm used to be, almost directly across the railway line from Hoppers Crossing.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Oh yes, i thought it would have been the space between Point cook and the Princess Fwy. but then i thought it cant be because last time i went pass new houses were appearing.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: bevans, reubstar6, silvertrain80

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.