New Intercity Trains have FIXED Seating?

 
  C3765 Train Controller

The new trains which are going to be replacing the V Sets in 2019 are going to be newer and cleaner than the V Sets but I have a feeling they aren’t gonna be as comfortable and enjoyable as the V Sets. The new trains may have more space, cup holders, phone chargers and tables but I have read that they have FIXED seating like the Tangaras and have less seats so that more people can stay standing. Do they really have fixed seating and if so why? I would love to know why.

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  Xavier Station Master

Location: Newcastle, AU
The new trains which are going to be replacing the V Sets in 2019 are going to be newer and cleaner than the V Sets but I have a feeling they aren’t gonna be as comfortable and enjoyable as the V Sets. The new trains may have more space, cup holders, phone chargers and tables but I have read that they have FIXED seating like the Tangaras and have less seats so that more people can stay standing. Do they really have fixed seating and if so why? I would love to know why.
C3765

If I had to take a guess I would say it would be due to cost cutting as fixed seating would not need to be repaired quite as often as there are no moving parts.

That being said...it will be very unpopular as not everyone can travel in a backwards position due to motion sickness. I predict these fixed seats will be ripped out and replaced with reversible seats in no time at all if they go ahead with it.

There's also the fact that with fixed seating you may be forced facing a stranger for up to 2.5Hrs, at least on the Vs you can flip your seat in the direction of travel and the one in front of you so you are not facing anyone.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

The new trains which are going to be replacing the V Sets in 2019 are going to be newer and cleaner than the V Sets but I have a feeling they aren’t gonna be as comfortable and enjoyable as the V Sets. The new trains may have more space, cup holders, phone chargers and tables but I have read that they have FIXED seating like the Tangaras and have less seats so that more people can stay standing. Do they really have fixed seating and if so why? I would love to know why.

If I had to take a guess I would say it would be due to cost cutting as fixed seating would not need to be repaired quite as often as there are no moving parts.

That being said...it will be very unpopular as not everyone can travel in a backwards position due to motion sickness. I predict these fixed seats will be ripped out and replaced with reversible seats in no time at all if they go ahead with it.

There's also the fact that with fixed seating you may be forced facing a stranger for up to 2.5Hrs, at least on the Vs you can flip your seat in the direction of travel and the one in front of you so you are not facing anyone.
Xavier
Passenger will just have to get used to it. If they don't like they can drive.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The new trains which are going to be replacing the V Sets in 2019 are going to be newer and cleaner than the V Sets but I have a feeling they aren’t gonna be as comfortable and enjoyable as the V Sets. The new trains may have more space, cup holders, phone chargers and tables but I have read that they have FIXED seating like the Tangaras and have less seats so that more people can stay standing. Do they really have fixed seating and if so why? I would love to know why.

If I had to take a guess I would say it would be due to cost cutting as fixed seating would not need to be repaired quite as often as there are no moving parts.

That being said...it will be very unpopular as not everyone can travel in a backwards position due to motion sickness. I predict these fixed seats will be ripped out and replaced with reversible seats in no time at all if they go ahead with it.

There's also the fact that with fixed seating you may be forced facing a stranger for up to 2.5Hrs, at least on the Vs you can flip your seat in the direction of travel and the one in front of you so you are not facing anyone.
Xavier
That would be the main part of the reasoning but, when one considers it how often do the seats have to be repaired?  I travel fairly frequently by rail now in the Hunter and on the CC line. And its been a while since I have seen broken seats on any of the sets that run up here, even the older trains which incidently are far more comfortable than the modern ones, especially if you have to travel the full distance from Wickham to Sydney.  We don't have a choice on weekends now as only the modern mongrels are used on the WE'S

Often the end seats on all the current trains are half vacant even in the peak when no seats are available, as those in the two rows have to sit to the side in order to get some leg room, when someone gets up to get off, its a real jumble of all in the seats to get up and move to allow the person out.  

Great step backwards.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Fixed seating is pretty much the norm, even on HSR trains.

NSW enjoyed a luxury for a century, this luxury comes at a cost, this cost has been deleted from the capital and operating budgets going forward.

(Not saying I like it, but thats the facts)
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
The Guvament has its head up its butt again in the face of logic, use the big bouncy seats out of the red rattlers, see cheap.
  Rarki Station Master

Personally, as a regular user of intercity services I'm looking forward to fixed seating and I think it's a shame that the backlash over fixed seating on the Tangara meant a return to reversible seating on subsequent orders until now. Fixed seating is cheaper to install and maintain (an important factor when fare recovery is only 20-30% of operating costs) and discourages people from putting their feet on the seats, mainly because they can't. Reversible seating encourages grubs to put their feet on the seat because no matter where they sit they can flip the seat opposite them and put their feet up.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
I take it you don't play card games. Four playing 500 all the way to Sydney was a great way to start the morning. Poor man's Bridge.
  M636C Minister for Railways

I take it you don't play card games. Four playing 500 all the way to Sydney was a great way to start the morning. Poor man's Bridge.
apw5910
Although the initial artist's impressions definitely showed all seating in facing pairs, a "Tangara" arrangement has been selected as indicated above indirectly, with four sets of facing pairs at the ends of the saloons only and the remainder facing towards each end, back to back in the centre. The cars will have longitudinal seating in the ends like suburban cars, since these areas will be available for disabled access.

So to play cards you'll have to be quick or lucky to get one of the positions for all four card players. This would be much easier if the seats were reversible.

My concern, expressed before elsewhere, is that with two plus two seating, there is no need for the train to be 3m wide.

Since the upper and lower decks are not really available for disabled passengers, a wider aisle isn't a big advantage. Certainly not enough to spend millions on widening clearances for. If these cars were built to the 9.8m width, no clearances would need to change and most passengers would not notice the very small reduction in width.

The fixed seating could be shaped to maximise clearances anyway.

Peter
  a6et Minister for Railways

Fixed seating is pretty much the norm, even on HSR trains.

NSW enjoyed a luxury for a century, this luxury comes at a cost, this cost has been deleted from the capital and operating budgets going forward.

(Not saying I like it, but thats the facts)
RTT_Rules
Thing is with the old fixed seat trains that ran the country services and even the cowboy suburban carriages, is that there was much more leg room between the seats, they certainly were not comfortable for long travel though, also when you boarded the trains, you would find that the seats that filled up first were those facing the direction of travel. Many people would move through the train until they found an empty forward facing seat.  The only ones who did not object were school kids who would take a compartment or twin facing seat areas as they were all together.

Do these new seats have reclining backs? that is a big thing as well.  While the old V sets are rigid backs, they are comfortable to sit in for the whole journey.  The new sets, M's or O's have no idea, but they like the V's have through over backs on them, something that was always on the old Rattlers and some rebuilt old cowboy cars, that was the norm until the Tangara's and the early XPT's came out with fixed seating in them.  The X's received a heck of a lot of bad press and resistance to people using the services.

Thing is, the decision makers all say, the new trains provide this, that, and everything, the one thing that the decision makers do not have to do let alone do so frequently is to travel on the trains for hours on end twice a day 5 or more days a week to enjoy the said greater comfort and facilities.  Rather they get government cars to take them to work and home, or taxis.

Rural services such as on the XPT and XPL's at least have swivel seats that can be swung for the direction of travel, meaning a degree of comfort for them as against the face to face as the XPT was.  That also applied to all the old Air Conditioned loco hauled trains, the Budd cars and other DMU/RM trains that ran around the state.

So, as I said  Backward step, but more so without taking any public input especially from those who use the services.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Personally, as a regular user of intercity services I'm looking forward to fixed seating and I think it's a shame that the backlash over fixed seating on the Tangara meant a return to reversible seating on subsequent orders until now. Fixed seating is cheaper to install and maintain (an important factor when fare recovery is only 20-30% of operating costs) and discourages people from putting their feet on the seats, mainly because they can't. Reversible seating encourages grubs to put their feet on the seat because no matter where they sit they can flip the seat opposite them and put their feet up.
Rarki
How is going to prevent people from putting their feet up on the seats, especially when they are directly opposite, OH! do I gather they will have tables between them, wonderful! that's going to make it much easier to get up and over the person sitting on the aisle rows.

Whe I get on a train I make sure I throw the seat over so it faces the direction I am going.  Why is it that people are not prepared to say something to the feet on seat brigade.  I do, some may initially protest but, once one person says something others will also, point them to the signs at the end of the carriage and ask if they can read.  Also point out to them that people with clean clothes don't appreciate getting foot dirt over them.

In all the times I have ever checked someone and they got upset was with a group of young teenages who started to smoke on the train, I asked them to put them out, and while words were spoken, I said ok, I will report it to the guard and started to get up, and out the cigarettes went.
  Rarki Station Master

Personally, as a regular user of intercity services I'm looking forward to fixed seating and I think it's a shame that the backlash over fixed seating on the Tangara meant a return to reversible seating on subsequent orders until now. Fixed seating is cheaper to install and maintain (an important factor when fare recovery is only 20-30% of operating costs) and discourages people from putting their feet on the seats, mainly because they can't. Reversible seating encourages grubs to put their feet on the seat because no matter where they sit they can flip the seat opposite them and put their feet up.
How is going to prevent people from putting their feet up on the seats, especially when they are directly opposite, OH! do I gather they will have tables between them, wonderful! that's going to make it much easier to get up and over the person sitting on the aisle rows.

Whe I get on a train I make sure I throw the seat over so it faces the direction I am going.  Why is it that people are not prepared to say something to the feet on seat brigade.  I do, some may initially protest but, once one person says something others will also, point them to the signs at the end of the carriage and ask if they can read.  Also point out to them that people with clean clothes don't appreciate getting foot dirt over them.

In all the times I have ever checked someone and they got upset was with a group of young teenages who started to smoke on the train, I asked them to put them out, and while words were spoken, I said ok, I will report it to the guard and started to get up, and out the cigarettes went.
a6et
Because they said that they will have a Tangara-style seating layout, i.e. seats facing out from middle of carriage, meaning out of all available seats on the train there will only be 16 in each car where it will be possible for them to do so i.e. the eight facing seats at each end of the upper and lower decks. Currently any seat is fair game and all you have to do is look around to see the number of people who take advantage of this.

As for asking people to move (let alone asking if they can read), I have seen people verbally abused for politely asking others to keep quiet in a quiet carriage. As recently as last weekend on a Wyong to Sydney service a woman in my carriage gave a bloke a mouthful of vile abuse simply because he asked her if his suitcase was bothering her and would he like for him to move it for her. The sad reality is these days you don't know what response you're going to get.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Personally, as a regular user of intercity services I'm looking forward to fixed seating and I think it's a shame that the backlash over fixed seating on the Tangara meant a return to reversible seating on subsequent orders until now. Fixed seating is cheaper to install and maintain (an important factor when fare recovery is only 20-30% of operating costs) and discourages people from putting their feet on the seats, mainly because they can't. Reversible seating encourages grubs to put their feet on the seat because no matter where they sit they can flip the seat opposite them and put their feet up.
How is going to prevent people from putting their feet up on the seats, especially when they are directly opposite, OH! do I gather they will have tables between them, wonderful! that's going to make it much easier to get up and over the person sitting on the aisle rows.

Whe I get on a train I make sure I throw the seat over so it faces the direction I am going.  Why is it that people are not prepared to say something to the feet on seat brigade.  I do, some may initially protest but, once one person says something others will also, point them to the signs at the end of the carriage and ask if they can read.  Also point out to them that people with clean clothes don't appreciate getting foot dirt over them.

In all the times I have ever checked someone and they got upset was with a group of young teenages who started to smoke on the train, I asked them to put them out, and while words were spoken, I said ok, I will report it to the guard and started to get up, and out the cigarettes went.
Because they said that they will have a Tangara-style seating layout, i.e. seats facing out from middle of carriage, meaning out of all available seats on the train there will only be 16 in each car where it will be possible for them to do so i.e. the eight facing seats at each end of the upper and lower decks. Currently any seat is fair game and all you have to do is look around to see the number of people who take advantage of this.

As for asking people to move (let alone asking if they can read), I have seen people verbally abused for politely asking others to keep quiet in a quiet carriage. As recently as last weekend on a Wyong to Sydney service a woman in my carriage gave a bloke a mouthful of vile abuse simply because he asked her if his suitcase was bothering her and would he like for him to move it for her. The sad reality is these days you don't know what response you're going to get.
Rarki
It happens, but the person who did the abusing shows that she needed to just ignored as he was at least trying to help her.

I still will challenge people with feet on the seat, especially if they have their shoes on. Its a matter of asking them politely at first which I do, and then if they ask what I am on about, I point out the sign for them to read.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Rural services such as on the XPT and XPL's at least have swivel seats that can be swung for the direction of travel, meaning a degree of comfort for them as against the face to face as the XPT was.  That also applied to all the old Air Conditioned loco hauled trains, the Budd cars and other DMU/RM trains that ran around the state.

So, as I said  Backward step, but more so without taking any public input especially from those who use the services.
a6et
If the new interurbans have fixed seating, the only way that will change is if the voters make their MP aware that they are not happy with fixed seating. That is why the XPT seating was changed. The reason VLocitys continue to have fixed seating is that the voters haven't objected
  M636C Minister for Railways

If the new interurbans have fixed seating, the only way that will change is if the voters make their MP aware that they are not happy with fixed seating. That is why the XPT seating was changed. The reason VLocitys continue to have fixed seating is that the voters haven't objected
Lockspike
The Endeavours had fixed seating arranged like the Tangara trains but this was removed and replaced by reversible seating used in the Hunter and Oscar trains. The G set Tangaras had reversible seating as a result of the complaints about the standard Tangaras.

I find the seating in Millennium and Waratah trains to be very comfortable, more so than Tangara seats. They don't appear to suffer from vandalism nor do they get jammed as do older designs. They cost more at first but are worth it.

No introduction of fixed seats in Sydney Trains has been successful since the general introduction of reversible seating in 1890.

However, bringing in senior management from the UK unaware of this background results in periodic failed efforts to set the clock back.

Peter
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I take it you don't play card games. Four playing 500 all the way to Sydney was a great way to start the morning. Poor man's Bridge.
apw5910

You guys must live in the past..

I haven't seen people play cards on a train for over 15 years...most people stare at their device and don't really care which direction they face...I'm one of them.

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

While the new trains will have fixed seating they will have up to 10 carriages in length and so will actually be capable of having more seats available. I'm not sure how comfortable the new seats will be but from what I understand they won't be as hard as the H sets and closer to the comfort of the v sets.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I take it you don't play card games. Four playing 500 all the way to Sydney was a great way to start the morning. Poor man's Bridge.

You guys must live in the past..

I haven't seen people play cards on a train for over 15 years...most people stare at their device and don't really care which direction they face...I'm one of them.

Mike.
The Vinelander

Fixed seating usually has two sets of seats facing each other in the middle of the carriage on both sides.  So there would be 4 of these per car.

If people are still playing cards, (Mike, hand held device technology used in the way used today is less than 10 years old and even then back in 2012 I had a work Blackberry and I found most Ozzies still on basic phones in comparison, but your overall point is valid). When I was travelling, seating arrangements didn't limit card playing. We played sitting, standing, spread across the aisle, sitting on the floor, sitting on stairs.....

Anyway, its not the govts role to provide seating so people can play cards, rather so people are seated comfortably. This is why the train has 2+2 and note 2+3.  

Fixed seating should inherently be more comfortable and offer more services such as tray and better foot rests and you don't have to accommodate bidirectional seating. Anyway, fixed seating is standard practice almost everywhere else in the world, people need to get over it and if they don't like it drive and for now at least this prevents the driver playing cards.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I take it you don't play card games. Four playing 500 all the way to Sydney was a great way to start the morning. Poor man's Bridge.

You guys must live in the past..

I haven't seen people play cards on a train for over 15 years...most people stare at their device and don't really care which direction they face...I'm one of them.

Mike.

Fixed seating usually has two sets of seats facing each other in the middle of the carriage on both sides.  So there would be 4 of these per car.
RTT_Rules
Not always, often the face each end of the compartment with the middle two back rests backing on to each other.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I take it you don't play card games. Four playing 500 all the way to Sydney was a great way to start the morning. Poor man's Bridge.

You guys must live in the past..

I haven't seen people play cards on a train for over 15 years...most people stare at their device and don't really care which direction they face...I'm one of them.

Mike.

Fixed seating usually has two sets of seats facing each other in the middle of the carriage on both sides.  So there would be 4 of these per car.
Not always, often the face each end of the compartment with the middle two back rests backing on to each other.
a6et
True, do we know which it will be? Usually its not a bad thing to have open facing seats in a few places.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
While the new trains will have fixed seating they will have up to 10 carriages in length and so will actually be capable of having more seats available.
simstrain
To lengthen the Down Stabling Sidings for 10 cars at Gosford, it may be necessary to abolish the Turntable, used for Heritage trains.
  a6et Minister for Railways

While the new trains will have fixed seating they will have up to 10 carriages in length and so will actually be capable of having more seats available.
To lengthen the Down Stabling Sidings for 10 cars at Gosford, it may be necessary to abolish the Turntable, used for Heritage trains.
awsgc24
I think you will find that the yards on the up side Sydney end will be able to hold 4 sets, along with a redesign of the Down sidings could mean no touching with the TT.

Thin is that with the dumb site for the maintenance centre at Kangy Angy you will find most of the fleet will stable there overnight and relieve the pressure at Gosford.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The new trains will be in 4 or 5 car sets and so can be 8, 9 or 10 cars in length.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The new trains will be in 4 or 5 car sets and so can be 8, 9 or 10 cars in length.
simstrain
I would have thought 4/6 or 5 car sets will be the go.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
nswtrains Passenger will just have to get used to it. If they don't like they can drive.
What a fantastically productive answer. Yes they will drive. Indeed they already do drive because they don't like the poor level of service provided already, so it stands to reason that if you make it even less attractive, more of them will drive. This means less demand for public transport, less need for trains and thus less employment for railway workers (= more of them out of a job).

A fabulous career in marketing awaits you. Perhaps for your first job, your first creative advertising slogan can be "let the peasants eat cake".

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