How many trams needed to service each route (route 96 in particular)?

 
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Morning

I have been wondering lately how many trams are required to service each route and how many trams are not available for service at any given time. I am guessing this info isn't publicly available.

I started thinking about this because I live on the 86 which still gets a high proportion of B class trams (even the 11 gets some) and checked the depot allocations on Vicsig. I was surprised to see that no E has arrived since January and in the months before then E2s have been allocated 50/50 with Southbank. I was under the impression that the 96 had all of its allocation, or are more services being added to the 96? IIRC the 96 used to be run by the 21 D2s, then the 5 C2s were added (26 trams) and now the D2s have given way to 26 E class. That's 31 trams for what is quite a short route.

At this rate the outstanding orders for E's (I believe the total order is now 80) wont cover the 27 B class trams remaining at Preston (unless they are thinking of doing a 19 and cut the timetable) and I understand there were no new trams in the budget, which was a surprise.

Thoughts?

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  rokaifly Station Master

I'm not sure about this
But the E class trams have route 11, 86, 96 route maps on them yet the routes are operated by new Preston (11, 86) and south bank (96)

So possibly for transfer or maybe      
south bank are running some route 11
E class trams to free some up for route 86.
As a south bank have quite a bit of tram drivers should have knowledge of route 11 from when route 112 still extisted.

Not sure about this just a guess from observations.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

10 x E2 Class were added in last year’s budget, bringing the total order to 80 (50 Es and 30 E2s). Perhaps the money is being spent upgrading the Es to E2s. There’s a photo on VicSig of E2 6062, shown as testing and commissioning, operating on Route 11 in March. There are also photos of E2s 6063 & 6064 in April and May respectively, but it is hard to tell if they are testing or in revenue service.
  mike49 Station Master

10 x E2 Class were added in last year’s budget, bringing the total order to 80 (50 Es and 30 E2s). Perhaps the money is being spent upgrading the Es to E2s. There’s a photo on VicSig of E2 6062, shown as testing and commissioning, operating on Route 11 in March. There are also photos of E2s 6063 & 6064 in April and May respectively, but it is hard to tell if they are testing or in revenue service.
kitchgp
6063 & 6064 are both in service, I saw them in Bourke Street at lunchtime today. It's hard to say whether the 80 E class plus the 5 C2's will be enough to cover the full runout for routes 11, 86 & 96. Maybe a few B2's will still be needed to meet peak requirements.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

A very rough calculation, using current weekday AM-peak timetables, based on the number of trams that departed between the time a particular tram departed the terminus and the time it returned to the terminus after the round trip, eg departed at 7.05 am and returned at 8.58 am.

Route 11: Victoria Harbour Docklands - West Preston
Round trip: 2 hours
20 trams required

Route 86: Waterfront City Docklands - Bundoora RMIT
Round trip: 3 hours
27 trams required

Route 96: St Kilda Beach - East Brunswick via light rail
Round trip: 2 Hours
20 trams required.

Total trams: 67 (doesn’t count spares for maintenance, etc)

Based on mike49’s observation of E2 6064 in service, there are currently 64 Es & E2s in service, leaving 16 to be commissioned in the current order of 80. From VicSig commissioning dates, the production rate seems to be about 14 per year, so the order will be filled about the middle of next year.
  mike49 Station Master

A very rough calculation, using current weekday AM-peak timetables, based on the number of trams that departed between the time a particular tram departed the terminus and the time it returned to the terminus after the round trip, eg departed at 7.05 am and returned at 8.58 am.

Route 11: Victoria Harbour Docklands - West Preston
Round trip: 2 hours
20 trams required

Route 86: Waterfront City Docklands - Bundoora RMIT
Round trip: 3 hours
27 trams required

Route 96: St Kilda Beach - East Brunswick via light rail
Round trip: 2 Hours
20 trams required.

Total trams: 67 (doesn’t count spares for maintenance, etc)

Based on mike49’s observation of E2 6064 in service, there are currently 64 Es & E2s in service, leaving 16 to be commissioned in the current order of 80. From VicSig commissioning dates, the production rate seems to be about 14 per year, so the order will be filled about the middle of next year.
kitchgp
On those figures the remaining 16 E2's still to be delivered should be enough to complete the conversion of routes 11 & 86 to 100% E/E2 class operation.

There was no funding for any additional trams in this years state budget but you would hope that something will happen before the current order is completed in mid 2019.
  red_railway Locomotive Fireman

22 trams are currently required to operate route 19 (Sydney Road) in peak.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

the Commonwealth DDA legislation required all PT to be fully DDA assessible this year , but the Commonwealth has recently extended this deadline by another 10 years. Even so, the current production rate of new trams , plus the rebuilding of tram stops to be DDA compliant , on current progress will not be achieved, so next years State Budget should give sone indication of future progress,

Regards, Radioman.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Another very rough calculation cobbled together from VicSig and Wikipedia figures. The following is a list of the types, years of production, passenger capacity and numbers of non-DDA trams currently in service and the total capacity they provide:

Class                                Passengers         # Trams       Total Capacity
Z3   (1979 - 84)                          112                111                 12432
A1 & A2   (1984 - 86)                 105                  68                   7140
B2   (1988 - 94)                          160                124                 19840

Total                                                                    303                 39412

The W Class was ignored.

The E2 Class carries 210 passengers, so it would require 188 E2s (39412 / 210) to provide the same capacity. At the production rate used in the above post of 14 pa, it will take 13 years (188 / 14) to complete replacement. The youngest B2 would then be 37 years old. To complete the replacement in 10 years requires a production rate of 19 pa (188 / 10). The youngest B2 would then be 34 years old.

There are other factors to be considered. The above doesn’t allow for expansion and would result in reduced timetable frequency, eg 1 x 210-passenger E2 Class replacing 2 X 105-passenger A2. The upside is there would be staff available for extra services (303 trams replaced by 188). Speeding up trams would reduce the number of replacements required. Etc.

The original E Class order was for 50 trams with options on another 100, of which 30 have been taken up, about 65 currently delivered and 15 under construction. This leaves about another 173 to be ordered (188 - 15). It would seem there is a bullet to be bitten.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Hello All,

the Commonwealth DDA legislation required all PT to be fully DDA assessible this year , but the Commonwealth has recently extended this deadline by another 10 years. Even so, the current production rate of new trams , plus the rebuilding of tram stops to be DDA compliant , on current progress will not be achieved, so next years State Budget should give sone indication of future progress,

Regards, Radioman.
Radioman
Uhhhh....wasn't the deadline 2032?
  mike49 Station Master

At the current rate of delivery, about one per month, it will be around 25 years before the tram fleet is fully accessible which takes us way past 2032. The production rate will have to be doubled to meet that target.

Talking of new trams 6065 & 6066 have been seen in service this week.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

...............................

Talking of new trams 6065 & 6066 have been seen in service this week.
mike49

Based on VicSig dates that would be 14 E2s commissioned in the last 12 months.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
How many trams needed to service each route? Too many for Yarra Trams and the next twenty years worth of operators. The Citadis and A class trams are not fit for the 109, the route is packed from Crown all the way to Victoria Gardens, and route 12 duplicating the same section with even more A classes doesn't do bugger all to help. Even between Box Hill and Balwyn the 109 is standing room only during daylight hours, the only quiet parts are the Port Melbourne light rail and Kew Depot to Burke Rd.

I made the stupid decision yesterday (yes, Saturday) of trying to catch a crush-loaded 109 from the Crown Casino stop back to Box Hill at 8PM to avoid the bustitution (which seems to happen more often than not on the Lilydale/Belgrave lines these days, yet unlike the other lines there are no level crossing, skyrail or Metro Tunnel works to be done at all, in fact, no actual service improvements whatsoever), when I reached Swanston St I couldn't get off the tram quick enough when I saw about 40 more people trying to squeeze on.

If ordering about a hundred E class trams in two years is too expensive for little old Melbourne, how much would it cost to retrofit D2 centre modules to the D1 Combino fleet to make larger trams? If that is even possible, I wouldn't put it past a large manufacturer like Siemens to make sure the small Combino is just that little bit different to the large Combino in order to sell two separate models of tram. As for Alstom, a Citadis 202 would probably turn into a concertina past 20 km/h if more sections were added, which I why I mentioned the Combino.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Morning

I have been wondering lately how many trams are required to service each route and how many trams are not available for service at any given time. I am guessing this info isn't publicly available.

I started thinking about this because I live on the 86 which still gets a high proportion of B class trams (even the 11 gets some) and checked the depot allocations on Vicsig. I was surprised to see that no E has arrived since January and in the months before then E2s have been allocated 50/50 with Southbank. I was under the impression that the 96 had all of its allocation, or are more services being added to the 96? IIRC the 96 used to be run by the 21 D2s, then the 5 C2s were added (26 trams) and now the D2s have given way to 26 E class. That's 31 trams for what is quite a short route.

At this rate the outstanding orders for E's (I believe the total order is now 80) wont cover the 27 B class trams remaining at Preston (unless they are thinking of doing a 19 and cut the timetable) and I understand there were no new trams in the budget, which was a surprise.

Thoughts?
Mr. Lane
Unfortunately the much needed E - Class build has halted and replaced with The $230 million Tram Refurbishment Project with its benefits spruiked via a word salad from the most unimpressive James Merlino banging about refurbishing old "iconic" High Floor trams which are long past their useful service life and do not meet DDA Requirements.

London can introduce 191 S Stock Trains in 8 years and we in Victoria will take 6 years to introduce 80 trams. It is so typical of Victoria to cut costs as regards to Public Transport. Tram Passengers on the Glenhunntly routes will have to suffer refurbished old trams with no air conditioning whilst the 11, 86 and 96 will have modern air conditioned trams.

Michael
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

E2 6067 and E2 6068, operating on Route 96 and Route 11 respectively, appearing in VicSig's Latest Photos.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Wonderful, 12 trams left to go exclusively to the same three routes as all the other E classes, and then we get more than a decade of stagnation unless someone extends the order beyond number 6080. The last time Melbourne had to wait over a decade for a new tram was when W7 1040 left the production line in 1956. Some tram routes have been waiting upwards of thirty years for a new tram (replacing Z1s with Z3s, or Z3s with even smaller A classes, is not an upgrade).
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Saying E-class production has stopped is complete nonsense. Nobody is suggesting to replace the E-class production for refurbishment of the older fleet. The refurbishment program was clearly planned a few years prior.

Maybe you should go read that 10 year rolling stock document released in 2015. More E-class trams are in the pipeline.
With a new type of tram planned in the near future.

Now as you may have forgotten a new tram line is gonna be built and probably would use a new type of tram that was hinted in the rolling stock document. As you know one E-class tram can replace several of shorter older class trams.

Now you didn't compare apples with apples with London. We are building 65 7-car HCMT trains in 4 years.
Which is equivalent to London building about 95 trains those 7/8 car S-stock train.

Now we could do better for sure, but shows Victoria has definitely stepped up it's game when it comes to Public Transport building. So yeah with the Suburban Loop into the vision, I'm sure that we are catching up with the other metro style operations like London. But these things take time and catching up isn't easy.

If I were you, I would criticise the lack of a co-ordinated transport plan, and a serious under funding of the bus and cycling network. Tram network although is packed and slow, is getting constant upgrades whereas buses and cycling put down at the bottom of the priority list.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
How About Refurbishing all the Ws Rotting in Newport Laughing
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

If it takes 12 months to build and test an E Class tram the production line will have already started running down. If it takes 6 months it will start running down from about January.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
The only thing I have read lately is that there will either be 80 E classes (6080), or 110 E classes (6110) at the end of the order. Still nowhere near the 200 or so that are needed for Melbourne to improve the tram services. And if those trams start replacing the Z3 fleet one for one we will probably need 300 rather than 200. We don't just need higher capacity trams, we need more frequent services as well, especially at night (along with the death of the Sunday timetable, but I'm sure I will be dead long before Sunday-specific timetables are). Camberwell, Essendon and Glenhuntly can't keep getting the short end of the stick and being stuck with the old (high floor) trams for eternity.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@TrueBelievers the E Class tram will stop at 80. There is no more funding past that and that explains why $245 million is being spent on refurbishing all the old high floor trams. The original plan was as follows as set out in the Rolling Stock Plan

Further orders are planned that will bring the number of our new E-Class trams in service to 150 by 2022. This allows retirement of old Z-Class trams. We are also funding the $21 million refurbishment and life extension of 130 B-Class trams which were delivered in the 1980s, to address reliability and amenity, and to ensure passenger safety, until they too can be retired.


Note nowhere in the plan states that any refurbishment will be undertaken on the A and Z classes.

In contrast with the Tram Refurbishment Project

Older trams will undergo a mechanical and electrical overhaul, upgrades to the driver's cabin and a refresh of the passenger saloon. Improvement works include the replacement of windows with tinted glass, panel repairs, a deep clean of trams and installation of upgraded saloon lights on some vehicles. No mention of any vehicles being retired.


Not one HCMT has been built yet. The S Stock and the 2006 stock for the Victoria line has has and 106 trains on 19 years is truly pathetic. I  have mentioned before that this state lacks a coherent plan.

Michael
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The E-class fleet stops at 150 trams not 80. The B-class refurbishment was funded in previous budgets though.

There is a planned investment of 70 more e-class trams by 2019-2020. Then a new high capacity fleet of trams are planned by 2021, roughly the time the Rowville light rail line opens.

I though this was the plan on page 14:
http://www.cesarmelhem.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Copy-of-DOC-15-202531-Trains-Trams-Jobs-2015-2025-FINAL-rolling-stock-strategy-20150430.pdf

Shows both the refurbishment program of B-class trams as well as progressive investments of more E-class trams. Wasn't the refurbishment of the B-class tram were already part of the plan?

Just because there isn't a investment now doesn't mean the fleet ends at 80. Just wait till the election, Dan is probably gonna announce more rollingstock.

Come on it wouldn't make sense stopping at 80 when there is a tram extension planned in the next few years. Can u show me where it says it stops at 80, or is that assumption due to the lack of continual investment. He announced 20 in 2015-2016 budget, and 10 in 2017-2018 budget, I would assume in 2019-2020 another 30-50 would be added to the fleet. Then probably planning the new fleet of tram to run on the new section of tram line through Monash/Chadstone.

I checked where you probably ASSUMED it stopped at 80. 11th July Dan Andrews posted that refubishment program and in the comments it say 66th tram out of 80. To me looks like more will come not stop at 80. There is nothing anywhere on the news or anything that says the 80th tram is the last E-class.

BTW: The HCMTs are getting built as we speak.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@Truebelievers the B Class refurbishment was going to be a light refresh until the next gen trams came on stream. The A and Z class were to be retired, all 181 of them still in service. Now they are getting C6 overhaul, a complete rebuild which will allow them to last another 10 to 15 years at least.

That says to me that they have curtailed the e class builds. I cannot see that they are going to overhaul 181 trams and continue with the build.

Michael
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

@Truebelievers the B Class refurbishment was going to be a light refresh until the next gen trams came on stream. The A and Z class were to be retired, all 181 of them still in service. Now they are getting C6 overhaul, a complete rebuild which will allow them to last another 10 to 15 years at least.

That says to me that they have curtailed the e class builds. I cannot see that they are going to overhaul 181 trams and continue with the build.

Michael
mejhammers1
Fine I'll ask the transport minister if the e-class tram build is continuing.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
A complete rebuild... that will be a good change over the current state of the B2s (especially the former M>Tram ones). Are the B1s also being refurbished, or did Yarra Trams do a ninja move to Sims Metal when no-one was watching? Not even VicSig sheds any light on 2001 or 2002 this year.

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