New long-distance V/Line rolling stock

 
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Finally the HEP unit can be very handy for powering refrigerated freight wagons in the summer heat.
Duncs
Is HEP for freight still considered an asset? Are there any refrigerated wagons/containers without their own refrigeration unit these days?

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  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Finally the HEP unit can be very handy for powering refrigerated freight wagons in the summer heat.
Is HEP for freight still considered an asset? Are there any refrigerated wagons/containers without their own refrigeration unit these days?
Lockspike
Pn Use P20 for that purpose.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Finally the HEP unit can be very handy for powering refrigerated freight wagons in the summer heat.
Is HEP for freight still considered an asset? Are there any refrigerated wagons/containers without their own refrigeration unit these days?
Lockspike
The Mildura fruity still has at least one generator container per train.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The D77 traction motors make an N class 126 tons, up from 123 tons. The G class is 128 tons the BL class 129 tons. The D 77 is a common traction motor in that provides better traction performance that the D43 (why the D 43 was ever selected is beyond me)
Duncs
The D77 is a much more powerfull motor than the D43 (and will take a far higher traction current) and is usually found in much more powerfull locomotives.The D43 was used likely as it more closely matched the N class engine/altenator set up. The ONLY other locos using the D43 is the Irish 201 class.

woodford
  t_woodroffe Assistant Commissioner

A traction motor is as powerful as the generator/alternator output supplied to it. The continuous rating of a D 43 is 950 amps and a D 77 1050 amps. Some 500 Class 66 locos have D 43 traction motors and the D 43 is also used and manufactured in South Africa. V/Line were EMD's test bed for the D 43s and they were chosen because the N Class were designed capable of 160 km/h operation and the lower unsprung mass of the D 43s was of advantage. The N Class would have required re-gearing for 160 km/h operation and the gear ratio chosen was better for freight operation (!)

TW
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

What I wouldn’t give to see an N at 160 clicks...
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
What I wouldn’t give to see an N at 160 clicks...
potatoinmymouth

They ride so roughly it would probably leap off the tracks.

M.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Would fixing the tracks help ?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Would fixing the tracks help ?
YM-Mundrabilla
RFR (Regional Fast Rail)
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Would fixing the tracks help ?
RFR (Regional Fast Rail)
Dangersdan707
Does it make a difference between Spencer Street and Geelong/Bendigo?
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Would fixing the tracks help ?
YM-Mundrabilla
It seems that certain locomotives have it embedded into their design, N classes probably being one of them
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Put some wings on them so they can glide back to the ground gently....
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A traction motor is as powerful as the generator/alternator output supplied to it. The continuous rating of a D 43 is 950 amps and a D 77 1050 amps. Some 500 Class 66 locos have D 43 traction motors and the D 43 is also used and manufactured in South Africa. V/Line were EMD's test bed for the D 43s and they were chosen because the N Class were designed capable of 160 km/h operation and the lower unsprung mass of the D 43s was of advantage. The N Class would have required re-gearing for 160 km/h operation and the gear ratio chosen was better for freight operation (!)

TW
t_woodroffe
In an EMD SD40 the stall current for there D77 traction motors is 1600 amps, availble in notch 7 or 8 (Note 1). In the graphs from EMD on the current V tractive effort for the SD40 the current axis goes goes up to 1700 amps. The stall currrent for the N class locomotives is no where near that level.

Note 1: The actual stall current is set by the current limiting circuitry for the traction altenator and is adjustable, the actual current set is 4800 amps, the motors wired in 2 series by 3 parrallel. Ie the traction motor current being 1/3rd of the altenator current.

Reference: EMD SD40 locomotive service manual, Revision E

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Would fixing the tracks help ?
YM-Mundrabilla
I don't think so, all drivers I have talked consistently say the N's ride badly, one even having a scar on his lower right arm where the console rubbed on it due to the rough ride. I asked how does the X's and G's ride they said quite OK. I find this something of a puzzle as the G's have the same sized bogies and where built almost at the same time.

From my own conversations with drivers it appears most, ie not all drivers, dislike the N's quite a bit.

woodford
  t_woodroffe Assistant Commissioner

A traction motor is as powerful as the generator/alternator output supplied to it. The continuous rating of a D 43 is 950 amps and a D 77 1050 amps. Some 500 Class 66 locos have D 43 traction motors and the D 43 is also used and manufactured in South Africa. V/Line were EMD's test bed for the D 43s and they were chosen because the N Class were designed capable of 160 km/h operation and the lower unsprung mass of the D 43s was of advantage. The N Class would have required re-gearing for 160 km/h operation and the gear ratio chosen was better for freight operation (!)

TW
In an EMD SD40 the stall current for there D77 traction motors is 1600 amps, availble in notch 7 or 8 (Note 1). In the graphs from EMD on the current V tractive effort for the SD40 the current axis goes goes up to 1700 amps. The stall currrent for the N class locomotives is no where near that level.

Note 1: The actual stall current is set by the current limiting circuitry for the traction altenator and is adjustable, the actual current set is 4800 amps, the motors wired in 2 series by 3 parrallel. Ie the traction motor current being 1/3rd of the altenator current.

Reference: EMD SD40 locomotive service manual, Revision E

woodford
woodford
  t_woodroffe Assistant Commissioner

The stall current will turn the traction motor into a fuse and is not used for setting locomotive haulage capability. The continuous ratings for the D 43 and D 77 traction motors are taken from EMD traction motor characteristic curves ERC 1515 and ERC 1409 and confirmed by Dave Butters, Chief Engineer, Clyde Engineering. The AR 10 traction alternator can output 4800 amps max. The AR 11 and AR 16 traction alternators (G Class etc) can output 6000 amps hence the full parallel traction motor hook up.

TW
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Would fixing the tracks help ?
I don't think so, all drivers I have talked consistently say the N's ride badly, one even having a scar on his lower right arm where the console rubbed on it due to the rough ride. I asked how does the X's and G's ride they said quite OK. I find this something of a puzzle as the G's have the same sized bogies and where built almost at the same time.

From my own conversations with drivers it appears most, ie not all drivers, dislike the N's quite a bit.

woodford
woodford
I wonder of there are any modifications that can be made to improve this situation?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Would fixing the tracks help ?
I don't think so, all drivers I have talked consistently say the N's ride badly, one even having a scar on his lower right arm where the console rubbed on it due to the rough ride. I asked how does the X's and G's ride they said quite OK. I find this something of a puzzle as the G's have the same sized bogies and where built almost at the same time.

From my own conversations with drivers it appears most, ie not all drivers, dislike the N's quite a bit.

woodford
I wonder of there are any modifications that can be made to improve this situation?
Duncs

Yes Exclamation

Retire the N Class loco's and replace their reason for being with long-distance V'Locity's..

Mike.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Drivers I have spoken to (much like Woodford) say the N class are rubbish to drive, the A class are an improvement, the G class are much better, but the X class are even better again, especially when driven long end leading.

The G class weigh in at 5 Tonne more than the N class, I wonder if maybe this helps the G class ride better?

Although that argument may go out the window when you consider that drivers (some at least) prefer the way the X class ride, and they weigh in at 9 -7 tonnes less than the N class, and 14 - 11 tonnes lighter than the G.

So maybe it's more to do with the basic design of the N and G class needing a lot more weight to keep them stable and riding nice at speed.

For the record:
G class - 128 Tonne
N class - 123 Tonne
A class - 118 Tonne
X class (2nd & 3rd orders) - 116 Tonne
X class (1st order) - 114 Tonne
C class - not that they were in the conversation, but they are a whopping 135 Tonne

*Figures from Vicsig
  t_woodroffe Assistant Commissioner

The weights of the various classes when I weighed them in the 1980s and 1990s were:

A 121 tonnes
C 134 tonnes
G 127 tonnes
N 124 tonnes D43 127 tonnes D 77
X 31-36 114 tonnes
X 37-44 118 tonnes
X 45-54 118 tonnes

I have no idea if the locos have been weighed in recent times. In my time the locos were weighed off overhaul and wheel weight distribution was adjusted accordingly.

Two drivers will have three opinions as to "ride quality". I have known diametrically opposed opinions that have changed with the weather. Horribly subjective; you need to fit accelerometers in the three primary axes on primary, secondary suspended elements and underframe to measure.

In my experience with A 85 (and a ride level meter) the locomotive rode better at 160 km/h than it did at 115 km/h. The N Class had problems with bogie hunting driven by the ANZR-2 wheel profile and were much better with a 1:40 rather than 1:20 conicity. As I understand it ARTC do not like the 1:40 profile so the SG N Class run the ANZR-1 profile which will require frequent wheel skims to maintain a good flange root profile and prevent hunting at 115 km/h. I have no idea what wheel profile the N Class currently run on BG.

TW
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

All you lot are getting techy and starting to ruin my naive dream of choo choo wonderland.
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

EMD locos are rough riding compared to most others. The 930s were a great ride when we had them.

DC traction motors should be a thing of the past. AC is much better with less faults and no transition.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

I'm no expert of BG and SG so I'm going to need some help. Got a lot of questions and appreciate any sort of answer. Melbourne gauge system is too confusing

Bombardier are designing a long haul version of the Vlocity that will have buffet, catering, first class, etc. This will run on the Albury SG Line

So when it comes to doing the other long distance lines: Bairnsdale, Swan Hill, Echuca and Warnambool how would this work. Would those Trains be BG or would they be SG, obviously I'm not sure there's SG to Bairnsdale and Bendigo ? Would you have to convert or would you run two different long haul fleets ?

Another point, with future extensions to Horsham/Dimboola isn't the track there SG, how would this run into Melbourne, shuttle services to Ararat will not please many passengers. Then there is an extension to Hamilton that is also planned.

Then there's a new fleet needed for a more reliable Overland service I guess.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I'm no expert of BG and SG so I'm going to need some help. Got a lot of questions and appreciate any sort of answer. Melbourne gauge system is too confusing
ptvcommuter

Are you from the Department of Transport?Laughing

It's pretty simple. Everything in Victoria is BG at the moment except:
  • North East line: 1 SG track alongside 2 BG tracks to Seymour; 2 SG tracks only Seymour-Albury
  • Western SG: 1 SG track from Tottenham to the border via Newport, North Shore, Ararat, Horsham, Dimboola
  • Ararat-Maryborough
  • Maryborough-Mildura (dual gauge to Dunolly where the Sea Lake and Manangatang lines branch off)
  • Plus SG access to parts of Southern Cross and the Port.
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
I'm no expert of BG and SG so I'm going to need some help. Got a lot of questions and appreciate any sort of answer. Melbourne gauge system is too confusing

Are you from the Department of Transport?Laughing

potatoinmymouth
Well, their handle is PTVCommuter, the Commuter bit could be there as an attempt to through us off  WinkLaughing

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