Baxter extension

 
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

What's the score in Baxter Electrification v Baxter extension? I presume Baxter Electrification has the home ground advantage.

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

51-46 in favour of the present thread.

A thrilling contest ahead over the following few years.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Melton, Wyndham vale and Clyde all need electrification/extensions too. I presume Baxter would be the last in the bunch to be completed.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
What's the score in Baxter Electrification v Baxter extension? I presume Baxter Electrification has the home ground advantage.
kitchgp

The project appears to include:

1. Duplication to Baxter
2. Extension of electrification for both tracks to Baxter
3. Stabling at Baxter
4. A new station between Frankston and Baxter

Seems expensive at that price?
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

well even the Baxter Feasibility Study that the local MP , Chris Crewther ( LP ) got Federal funding for was $4m which despite Chris's explanation still seems a lot of money to me when both the costings for then current railway work (the Ormond -McKinnon-Bentleigh Project was underway ) costings and recent Census data were easily available.

I recall reading many years ago in the US Passenger Train Journal / PTJ that the cost of 5 feasibility Studies for connecting St Louis and East St Louis by Light Rail exceeded the eventual cost of actually building and equipping said line , and still managed to seriously under estimate the actual level of demand.

Whilst I agree that a preliminary study should be undertaken , I have serious doubts as to the reliability of such data that is so expensively generated by alleged transport consultants , especially when their traffic forecast inevitably fall far short of reality when a particular project actually gets funded. In this regard both the San Diego Trolley and the Los Angeles Light Rail Projects both generated significantly greater traffic than was estimated.

Regards, Radioman
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Whilst I agree that a preliminary study should be undertaken , I have serious doubts as to the reliability of such data that is so expensively generated by alleged transport consultants , especially when their traffic forecast inevitably fall far short of reality when a particular project actually gets funded. In this regard both the San Diego Trolley and the Los Angeles Light Rail Projects both generated significantly greater traffic than was estimated.
Radioman
These same consultants will happily produce figures which over-estimate the patronage on proposed new roads.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Any real consultants report would have highly recommended the project scope be altered to include Stony Point for all the reasons of customer service, operational constraints, additional operating costs and simplified driver training.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bored at home
spot on bevans.

Just the overhead sparks on existing line, which is not the expensive part.

No project creep that we typically see. Wave a pot of money at consultants, builders etc and they cannot help but find ways to spend it.

No extended platform. Too bad if too short - move to the front carriage like they do in every other country (New York, London, Paris ...)
No grade separations. Not that busy.
No additional disabilty access. For the few in wheelchairs, put in a no charge maxi taxi.
No station upgrade apart from safety requirements.
No pretty bike trails, gardens etc. I like the natural look.

cheers
John
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
So where is all the money going?
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bored at home
I'm not a consultant, so it's not my pocket.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The budget is $485m.  Almost 1/2 a Billion $$$$
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The budget is $485m.  Almost 1/2 a Billion $$$$
bevans

Silly question, would they duplicate the track through the existing level crossings?  
I know they won't build new ones at any cost and it would add a huge amount to grade sep the existing ones.  
You've also got to put a second bridge over Peninsula Link.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The budget is $485m.  Almost 1/2 a Billion $$$$

Silly question, would they duplicate the track through the existing level crossings?  
I know they won't build new ones at any cost and it would add a huge amount to grade sep the existing ones.  
You've also got to put a second bridge over Peninsula Link.
lkernan

The critical crossing would be that in Frankston.
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The budget is $485m.  Almost 1/2 a Billion $$$$

Silly question, would they duplicate the track through the existing level crossings?  
I know they won't build new ones at any cost and it would add a huge amount to grade sep the existing ones.  
You've also got to put a second bridge over Peninsula Link.

The critical crossing would be that in Frankston.
bevans
Golf Links Road and Robinsons Road wouldn't be fun either.  
The tracks already on a steep grade and the road is in close proximity to both PL and roundabouts.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
The budget is $485m.  Almost 1/2 a Billion $$$$

Silly question, would they duplicate the track through the existing level crossings?  
I know they won't build new ones at any cost and it would add a huge amount to grade sep the existing ones.  
You've also got to put a second bridge over Peninsula Link.
lkernan
The Bridge Over Pen Link Has Capacity for 2 tracks.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

an easy and simple solution for the Baxter Sparkie project, make Baxter and island platform and run 2 / 3 Car Velocity trains, end of problem , no need for Billions of $'s  spent. Stop all these dumb and stupid  comments from knucklehead gunzels and so called Pollies blowing  their backsides off, with their insincere  promises  that are only  worth the value of their biggest FART from where the sun does not shine/  Phew I can smell something in the air'
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The budget is $485m.  Almost 1/2 a Billion $$$$

Silly question, would they duplicate the track through the existing level crossings?  
I know they won't build new ones at any cost and it would add a huge amount to grade sep the existing ones.  
You've also got to put a second bridge over Peninsula Link.
The Bridge Over Pen Link Has Capacity for 2 tracks.
Dangersdan707

The piers and foundations are actually designed to handle three tracks (public service thinking way far head for once).

But the current structure is only single track. You've still got to put new beams in and you can't slide them in a single day like before.
  62440 Chief Commissioner


Silly question, would they duplicate the track through the existing level crossings?  
I know they won't build new ones at any cost and it would add a huge amount to grade sep the existing ones.  
You've also got to put a second bridge over Peninsula Link.
lkernan
You may take it as read that duplication of the line will require the elimination of all level crossings as it is effectively a new railway. There are half a dozen before Baxter that need grade separating and the expressway crossing will not be cheap. On the upside there appears to be adequate reserve land. You have only to look at the line as far as Crib Point to see the density of housing and the potential for a spark service to Frankston and beyond. Going to the last section to Stony Point would be a political decision, it can't be justified on its own merits. If you decide to wire to Crib/ Stony Point, even with single track, you have a couple of dozen level crossings to be separated. Does the cost to save the cost of a diesel shuttle become justifiable? It is not cynical to ask if this is a marginal seat, it is reality as it can drive decisions.
Based on consulting experience, where the Government issues a brief, it can be summed up as "Here is the conclusion, reach it".
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bored at home
Just another silly question.

It's a given that electric to Baxter is required to support  new stabling yards.
BUT lots of passengers justifying 2 tracks is laughable.

Ignore the rubbish from Frankston council about re-develop the Frankston station precinct and jobs n growth.
They're just being dewy eyed real estate developers with no interest in rail passenger needs.

If Metro cannot gets their spare trains in/out of Baxter on a single line just not working hard enough.
Maybe mordernising those hand levers at the Frankston box would be a better investment.

Hence I'm at 1 electric track to Baxter on the existing line with NO grade separation and other rediculous expensive flights of fancy.

After Baxter it's either all Sprinter with a decent time table, or sparks overhead on the existing line with NO enhancements.
Either way Sommerville is the place for train passing, it's where most of the people are and about half way.

AND then the politicians gear up for the election, so considered thought and cost effiency go off to visit the dodo exhibition.

cheers
John
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
AND then the politicians gear up for the election, so considered thought and cost effiency go off to visit the dodo exhibition.
justarider
That's GOLD, love it.

BG
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bored at home
Hi Guys,

It's often been opined that RP is the place for silly questions and ridiculous ideas.  (guilty sir ! )

So in that vein, a thought for the line to Baxter and Stoney Point.

BATTERIES

The conversations about Baxter are really about 2 distinct, but a bit entwined issues.

Need more stable yards, and Baxter has room.
Stoney Point is running an isolated diesel service, that is a drag on Metro.

All the other stuff is fluff.

The constant assumption has been that we need to Electrify the line to solve these 2 issues.
Just ask the question why?
"Because that is what we have done for 100 years" is not an answer these days.

Imagine#

X'trapolis arriving at Frankston from Flinders St. Switch to Battery back up.  Drop the pantegraph.
Off we go to Stoney Point.

The technology is not that hard. South Australia just did a whole state grid. Surely one train is no harder.

For develope of the idea, take out 1/2 seats of X'trapolis Motor car, and wheel in some Tesla power walls and smart switches.
Later on can develope a more elegant design.

One train set is about a 3 hours round trip.  So sprinter shuttle still needed until enough proven battery cars are ready.

As for Baxter stable yard, where is the rule that a train has to get there under its own power. For those without a battery, use a tug.

Crazy idea i know. But if VR engineers give the usual "can't be done", then ask Elon Musk.  His team are up for 100 day challenges.

PS: if this all sounds a bit of over the top new stuff for insignificant little Stoney Point,  think potential. Wyndam Vale, Melton, MARL.

cheers
John
  62440 Chief Commissioner

"As for Baxter stable yard, where is the rule that a train has to get there under its own power. For those without a battery, use a tug."

Dry Creek spark yard in Adelaide is not wired, a 2 car dmu shuttles as required
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Why make things more difficult than they need to be. Spark and duplicate to Baxter, Sommerville or Stony Point. I'd personally go as far as Hastings (last large town on the line, long island steel goes about 1km short so the line can't be closed anyway). Should be just an extention of Frankston to keep it simple.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bored at home
the problem being JZ is that there is nothing simple about Baxter .

The current price tag just to get to Baxter, and not beyond, is half a BILLION dollars.
Just think about that. It's about 25 new X'trapolis 6 set trains.
No brainer which is going to be more usefull.

Taking the option of sparks all the way to Hasting or Stoney, and double it, we are getting into terrifying expense.

The battery back-up for whole of South Australia came to $100 million. OK "whole" is an exaggeration , but it is huge.

Back of envelope calculation for battery back-up on about 10 train sets would be $20 - $40 million.
That's still over the odds for Stoney Point. Never get that money back, but a lot more palatable.

cheers
John
  thekingoffoxes Chief Train Controller

Was going over my old hard drive and found this.

https://flic.kr/p/LdutJp

Still relevant? looks like it could be from 1981?

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