Including Sth Yarra interchange for MM1

 
  ianb26 Station Master

Hi there, apologies if this is included elsewhere.
Something to ponder.
Would it be too late to make a change to the layout of MM1 to include Sth Yarra as an interchange? From the preliminary civil drawings the portals are not all that far from Sth Yarra station. I think the designers of the project erred by not including an interchange at Sth Yarra. If my memory serves me right, didn't the Libs call for an interchange, but stubborn Labor say it was too expensive. What would adding another few million dollars mean to the project?


I wonder, if the Libs win the November election, will they try and alter the plans for the interchange to be added. I realise that Anzac station will be the first stop, but how far apart between it and Sth Yarra would it be?

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  stooge spark Train Controller

South Yarra station to Domain Interchange (about where Anzac is supposed to be) Is roughly 2 kilometers, give or take a little bit.
It wouldn't actually mean only a few million dollars extra is required for the project, the cost of a South Yarra connection would've added a billion dollars to the already expensive project,  and would've required a smeg-ton of property acquisition, which included part of the Jam factory.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Hi there, apologies if this is included elsewhere.
Something to ponder.
Would it be too late to make a change to the layout of MM1 to include Sth Yarra as an interchange? From the preliminary civil drawings the portals are not all that far from Sth Yarra station. I think the designers of the project erred by not including an interchange at Sth Yarra. If my memory serves me right, didn't the Libs call for an interchange, but stubborn Labor say it was too expensive. What would adding another few million dollars mean to the project?


I wonder, if the Libs win the November election, will they try and alter the plans for the interchange to be added. I realise that Anzac station will be the first stop, but how far apart between it and Sth Yarra would it be?
ianb26
$644million is not a few million.

The issue has been looked at extensively as part of MM1 design
https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/67946/TN050-Documents~B-South-Yarra-Metro-Station-Customer-Outcomes-and-Economic-Assessment-Report.PDF

In brief, the outcome suggestion is "catch a tram".
That is not a flippant comment, the paper works seriously through the scenarios and concludes it is the solution that works best for those passengers that the Libs are bleating on about.

In addition, removing the Dandenong line from South Yarra will reduce congestion. The current platform swaps for Frankston/Dandenong lines will happen at Caulfield instead.

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Hi there, apologies if this is included elsewhere.
Something to ponder.
Would it be too late to make a change to the layout of MM1 to include Sth Yarra as an interchange? From the preliminary civil drawings the portals are not all that far from Sth Yarra station. I think the designers of the project erred by not including an interchange at Sth Yarra. If my memory serves me right, didn't the Libs call for an interchange, but stubborn Labor say it was too expensive. What would adding another few million dollars mean to the project?


I wonder, if the Libs win the November election, will they try and alter the plans for the interchange to be added. I realise that Anzac station will be the first stop, but how far apart between it and Sth Yarra would it be?
ianb26

This is what I have heard. This is the agreement made by the project. The Metro project has potential to retrofit South Yarra station at a later date.

There you go. If Libs come and decide to add the station, they can do it, it's planned to allow this. If ALP opens the project it's likely they could open it without the station, but if they change their minds, they could put the station in, if they wanted, although the connection wouldn't be so direct.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

I think whilst we still have the chance, we should be looking at implementing the ORIGINAL Metro tunnel via one o Dandenong or Balaclava Rds.

Then we can get a proper start on Quadding Caulfield to at least Dandenong, if not Pakenham, plus a Dandenong-Frankston line for passenger and Freight (Long Island Steel etc.)
  ianb26 Station Master

Hi there, apologies if this is included elsewhere.
Something to ponder.
Would it be too late to make a change to the layout of MM1 to include Sth Yarra as an interchange? From the preliminary civil drawings the portals are not all that far from Sth Yarra station. I think the designers of the project erred by not including an interchange at Sth Yarra. If my memory serves me right, didn't the Libs call for an interchange, but stubborn Labor say it was too expensive. What would adding another few million dollars mean to the project?


I wonder, if the Libs win the November election, will they try and alter the plans for the interchange to be added. I realise that Anzac station will be the first stop, but how far apart between it and Sth Yarra would it be?
$644million is not a few million.

The issue has been looked at extensively as part of MM1 design
https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/67946/TN050-Documents~B-South-Yarra-Metro-Station-Customer-Outcomes-and-Economic-Assessment-Report.PDF

In brief, the outcome suggestion is "catch a tram".
That is not a flippant comment, the paper works seriously through the scenarios and concludes it is the solution that works best for those passengers that the Libs are bleating on about.

In addition, removing the Dandenong line from South Yarra will reduce congestion. The current platform swaps for Frankston/Dandenong lines will happen at Caulfield instead.

cheers
John
justarider
Just read some of the report. Seems there are fors and againsts for it. But - I don't know if what I am reading into it is just me - but it seems as though there could be some merit to it.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
How many times do we have to endure the regurgitation of long discarded wet dreams?

MM1 is what is is for various reasons . Build a bridge and get over it.

@John.Z the map is just somebody's options, long discarded.
If you want to bring up your favourite soapbox, then use other threads, they will respond - again.
Don't need another tangent..

The real plan is what the LIB government proposed to Infrastructure Australia in 2012
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/projects/files/VIC_Melbourne_Metro_Brief.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjqwuie8aLdAhXZMd4KHV3dCWsQFjAEegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3rwtVZ4vKz_39Vu02l4saz
Big surprise it is exactly what is now being built by ALP, which never had South Yarra interchange.

All the intrvening rubbish put up by the libs (South Yarra, Fishermens Bend, my #@%& is bigger than your #@%& ) was just political obfuscation,  
lord knows why they kept fiddling - oh yeah MG was Planning(ha ha) Minister, who gave his mates help at Fishermens Bend.

cheers
John
  ianb26 Station Master

Hi there, apologies if this is included elsewhere.
Something to ponder.
Would it be too late to make a change to the layout of MM1 to include Sth Yarra as an interchange? From the preliminary civil drawings the portals are not all that far from Sth Yarra station. I think the designers of the project erred by not including an interchange at Sth Yarra. If my memory serves me right, didn't the Libs call for an interchange, but stubborn Labor say it was too expensive. What would adding another few million dollars mean to the project?


I wonder, if the Libs win the November election, will they try and alter the plans for the interchange to be added. I realise that Anzac station will be the first stop, but how far apart between it and Sth Yarra would it be?

This is what I have heard. This is the agreement made by the project. The Metro project has potential to retrofit South Yarra station at a later date.

There you go. If Libs come and decide to add the station, they can do it, it's planned to allow this. If ALP opens the project it's likely they could open it without the station, but if they change their minds, they could put the station in, if they wanted, although the connection wouldn't be so direct.
True Believers
That sounds reasonable. The reason why I asked about this in the first place, is when there are events in the sporting precinct at Richmond there are 2 possibilities - from Dandenong/Cranbourne/Pakenham - change at Caulfield to trains from Frankston which then pickups at MATH & Sth Yarra then to Richmond which would probably entail standing room only from Caulfield, or change at Sth Yarra interchange with standing for only 1 stop. (I come from Cranbourne). The other possibility is to go through MM1 to Town Hall then Flinders Street then to Richmond which would increase travel time to over an hour. (50 minutes from Cranbourne to Richmond running express MATH). Then reverse for return journey.
Better still run the usual express MATH as specials direct to Richmond/Flinders Street and return, in fact that sounds more logical.
I think I have opened a can of worms! Smile
  ianb26 Station Master

oh yeah MG was Planning(ha ha) Minister, who gave his mates help at Fishermens Bend.

cheers
John
justarider
What's this Fishermen's Bend thing? I thought it was Phillip Island.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

How many times do we have to endure the regurgitation of long discarded wet dreams?

MM1 is what is is for various reasons . Build a bridge and get over it.

@John.Z the map is just somebody's options, long discarded.
If you want to bring up your favourite soapbox, then use other threads, they will respond - again.
Don't need another tangent..

The real plan is what the LIB government proposed to Infrastructure Australia in 2012
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/projects/files/VIC_Melbourne_Metro_Brief.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjqwuie8aLdAhXZMd4KHV3dCWsQFjAEegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3rwtVZ4vKz_39Vu02l4saz
Big surprise it is exactly what is now being built by ALP, which never had South Yarra interchange.

All the intrvening rubbish put up by the libs (South Yarra, Fishermens Bend, my #@%& is bigger than your #@%& ) was just political obfuscation,  
lord knows why they kept fiddling - oh yeah MG was Planning(ha ha) Minister, who gave his mates help at Fishermens Bend.

cheers
John
justarider
I like to excuse justarider to educate that this original plan for Metro WAS officially supported by government, some of the options were discarded but there was a official concept to run to Caulfield in 2 stages back in 2010-2011 and the first stage was approved by Infrastructure Australia. Saying "somebody's options" is misleading. Brumby was spruiking this idea with some early works started just before they lost the election.
https://www.danielbowen.com/2014/02/26/metro-rail-tunnel-names/

The LIB gov when relected, reduced the scope to South Yarra and submitted the new draft in Infrastucture Australia in 2012, and Labor supported this option when elected in 2014.

No point now reverting back the option proposed as far back as 2008, is kinda pointless now since construction is already underway. It does mean it would be unlikely to see extra tracks between Caulfield and South Yarra. But at the very least it's built in one go, originally was gonna be built in 2 sections, so gonna be quicker/cheaper to build and would mean a line-line connection from day 1 it opens.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
How many times do we have to endure the regurgitation of long discarded wet dreams?

MM1 is what is is for various reasons . Build a bridge and get over it.

I like to excuse justarider to educate that this original plan for Metro WAS officially supported by government, some of the options were discarded but there was a official concept to run to Caulfield in 2 stages back in 2010-2011 and the first stage was approved by Infrastructure Australia. Saying "somebody's options" is misleading. Brumby was spruiking this idea with some early works started just before they lost the election.
https://www.danielbowen.com/2014/02/26/metro-rail-tunnel-names/

The LIB gov when relected, reduced the scope to South Yarra and submitted the new draft in Infrastucture Australia in 2012, and Labor supported this option when elected in 2014.

No point now reverting back the option proposed as far back as 2008, is kinda pointless now since construction is already underway. It does mean it would be unlikely to see extra tracks between Caulfield and South Yarra. But at the very least it's built in one go, originally was gonna be built in 2 sections, so gonna be quicker/cheaper to build and would mean a line-line connection from day 1 it opens.
True Believers
Totally agree that revisiting 2008 is pointless, so I'll be the bunny.

it is a non-sequitur to say that the government supported the "Victoria Transport Plan 2008".
Of course they did, but we have seen many transport plans that amount to nought. It almost an annual event that may or may not be taken seriously.
Until SRL gets a detail design and business case up, then it also is just another plan.

Infrastrucure Australia was finally given enough details in 2010 ( by Brumby on the way out the door) to enable them to support MM1 (approve might be a bit overstated).
But only up to Domain, nobody had anything better than just the 4 options to Caulfield - not designs, just a map drawing.
Took until 2012 for the only sensible option to rise to the surface and get the IA tick of approval.

South Yarra (the reason for this thread) was never a serious contender. It still isn't.

cheers
John
  ianb26 Station Master

How many times do we have to endure the regurgitation of long discarded wet dreams?

MM1 is what is is for various reasons . Build a bridge and get over it.
I like to excuse justarider to educate that this original plan for Metro WAS officially supported by government, some of the options were discarded but there was a official concept to run to Caulfield in 2 stages back in 2010-2011 and the first stage was approved by Infrastructure Australia. Saying "somebody's options" is misleading. Brumby was spruiking this idea with some early works started just before they lost the election.
https://www.danielbowen.com/2014/02/26/metro-rail-tunnel-names/

The LIB gov when relected, reduced the scope to South Yarra and submitted the new draft in Infrastucture Australia in 2012, and Labor supported this option when elected in 2014.

No point now reverting back the option proposed as far back as 2008, is kinda pointless now since construction is already underway. It does mean it would be unlikely to see extra tracks between Caulfield and South Yarra. But at the very least it's built in one go, originally was gonna be built in 2 sections, so gonna be quicker/cheaper to build and would mean a line-line connection from day 1 it opens.
Totally agree that revisiting 2008 is pointless, so I'll be the bunny.

it is a non-sequitur to say that the government supported the "Victoria Transport Plan 2008".
Of course they did, but we have seen many transport plans that amount to nought. It almost an annual event that may or may not be taken seriously.
Until SRL gets a detail design and business case up, then it also is just another plan.

Infrastrucure Australia was finally given enough details in 2010 ( by Brumby on the way out the door) to enable them to support MM1 (approve might be a bit overstated).
But only up to Domain, nobody had anything better than just the 4 options to Caulfield - not designs, just a map drawing.
Took until 2012 for the only sensible option to rise to the surface and get the IA tick of approval.

South Yarra (the reason for this thread) was never a serious contender. It still isn't.

cheers
John
justarider
The tunnels go past/under/by side of Sth Yarra so why not make use of the facility. Everyone would be happy then. Smile
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
MM1 is what is is for various reasons . Build a bridge and get over it.

South Yarra (the reason for this thread) was never a serious contender. It still isn't.

cheers
John
The tunnels go past/under/by side of Sth Yarra so why not make use of the facility. Everyone would be happy then. Smile
ianb26
The the nearest point a passenger could traverse from the tunnels to South Yarra station is about 100m.
Gunna take that walk for a platform change?
https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/37268/MM-MAP-20151023-Eastern-Portal.pdf

And then there is the little issue of $644M and hundreds of houses disrupted even worse than the tunnel under. Now it's demolition and station excavation. I do not think everyone will be happy.

cheers
John
  ianb26 Station Master

MM1 is what is is for various reasons . Build a bridge and get over it.

South Yarra (the reason for this thread) was never a serious contender. It still isn't.

cheers
John
The tunnels go past/under/by side of Sth Yarra so why not make use of the facility. Everyone would be happy then. Smile
The the nearest point a passenger could traverse from the tunnels to South Yarra station is about 100m.
Gunna take that walk for a platform change?
https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/37268/MM-MAP-20151023-Eastern-Portal.pdf

And then there is the little issue of $644M and hundreds of houses disrupted even worse than the tunnel under. Now it's demolition and station excavation. I do not think everyone will be happy.

cheers
John
justarider
Didn't realise the location of the tunnel was so far back from Toorak Road or the distance to walk from "Lower Level Sth Yarra" to "Upper Level Sth Yarra" was so far. But surely that wouldn't be such a problem. There are longer walks on London Underground than that. (Can't remember which stations, been a few years since in London). I think - also, I stand to be corrected on this - some of the stations on Crossrail were "dug" from underneath via the tunnels which didn't require purchase of properties.

I didn't intend this thread to be a slanging match, just constructive suggestions. Smile
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

@justarider


The South Yarra report was given the mandate to be as destructive and expensive as possible. For $1B they could go via Dandenong Rd too. Then you'd have the chance for fully segregated VLine Metro traffic (or Express and SAS)
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Agree sadly there would be no way the cost for south Yarra would be so high. Sadly politics has trumped this important project.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
1. It is too late in the project to change the route. Therefore, it will definitely not be going to Caulfield via St Kilda Junct.

2. Technically, if Guy and his team won the November election, they could add an underground station at South Yarra, but it would cost an absolute fortune. Maybe not the quoted $644M but it would definitely be a significant amount. For a starters, the contracts have been signed and works have started, to amend the plans and the contracts to suit the station would cost a fair bit. Add to that the high value of property in that area. If any properties had to be acquired they would come at a very high cost.

3. A late change like this would most certainly push out the opening date.

4. It would serve very little purpose. Passengers to and from the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines can change at Caulfield, passengers from the Sandy line can either change at Flinders St/ Town Hall or change at South Yarra & Caulfield. It's not that difficult.
  Lockie91 Train Controller

The numbers on why South Yarra don’t stack up have been out their for near on a decade.

$644 million to add a station that passenger forecasting said wasn’t needed. On top of demolishing an entire city block.

South Yarra already has excellent PT and after MM1 is complete will have even better. If you bothered to glaze at the business case for MM1, planned peak service frequency once MM1 open are South Yarra are 90 seconds.

Even if the project has been designed for a future interchange it’s jusy never going to happen. No government will ever come back and dig up a suburb decades after construction is completed.

Close the smeg HS and move on.
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
oh yeah MG was Planning(ha ha) Minister, who gave his mates help at Fishermens Bend.

cheers
John
What's this Fishermen's Bend thing? I thought it was Phillip Island.
ianb26
Same minister ; different scandal
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
oh yeah MG was Planning(ha ha) Minister, who gave his mates help at Fishermens Bend.

cheers
John
What's this Fishermen's Bend thing? I thought it was Phillip Island.
Same minister ; different scandal
Crossover
and that scandal led the Libs to their 1/2 baked convoluted Metro (via  South Yarra, Fishermens Bend, Airport)

cheers
John
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Agree sadly there would be no way the cost for south Yarra would be so high. Sadly politics has trumped this important project.
freightgate

The ALP stated it was too expensive but the Coalition stated it could be done for a lot less cost.  Who was right?

Fisherman's bend property which would have benefited from the coalition plan was/is partly owned by some prominent Liberal Party backers.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Agree sadly there would be no way the cost for south Yarra would be so high. Sadly politics has trumped this important project.

The ALP stated it was too expensive but the Coalition stated it could be done for a lot less cost.  Who was right?

Fisherman's bend property which would have benefited from the coalition plan was/is partly owned by some prominent Liberal Party backers.
x31
Shades of Sir Thomas
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
South Yarra is nothing but a red herring.

It was never going to be built under Labor. Never.

It was never going to be built under the Libs. They would have done their cost-benefit analysis and come to the same conclusion that Labor came to: Too expensive and doesn't really add anything of value. If Matthew Guy & Co. wins the upcoming election, they will likely come up with some excuse along these lines so they can get away with not retro-fitting it.

They are just using it as an excuse to be negative. Like all good oppositions. In other words, it isn't anything to do with railways, It isn't anything to do with providing a better public transport network for the people. Its all politics, nothing else.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

South Yarra is nothing but a red herring.

It was never going to be built under Labor. Never.

It was never going to be built under the Libs. They would have done their cost-benefit analysis and come to the same conclusion that Labor came to: Too expensive and doesn't really add anything of value. If Matthew Guy & Co. wins the upcoming election, they will likely come up with some excuse along these lines so they can get away with not retro-fitting it.

They are just using it as an excuse to be negative. Like all good oppositions. In other words, it isn't anything to do with railways, It isn't anything to do with providing a better public transport network for the people. Its all politics, nothing else.
Gman_86
South Yarra station was included in the Libs plan (never been linked to any Metro Tunnel documents, from either labor government).

It's in a seat that's swinging green, don't discount the political cost of building it. Labor has put it in the too hard basket (ie high cost, low time, high difficulty: choose 2 because you can't have all 3).

High cost low time is just demolishing anything in the way and dropping a station box. That's why it doesn't stack up for Labor, but if they put in extra in the planning stage it could be done.
  tom9876543 Train Controller

Anyone who claims property acquisition is required for MM1 South Yarra station is an imbecile.
Politicians, bureaucrats, they are all totally stupid and couldn't plan a piss up in a brewery.

South Yarra station could be easily built without acquiring property.
Draw a straight line from 125 Osborne St to Chapel St where it crosses over existing Dandenong line.
The underground station could be built at this location, property acquisition not required.
The tunnel entrance to MM1 would need to be further east, next to Surrey Park.
There would be a 160m pedestrian tunnel to link existing South Yarra platforms to the new South Yarra underground platforms.
Also new pedestrian entrance built at Arthur St.

As MM1 construction has commenced, it is too difficult to change the existing plans and contracts.
Unfortunately it looks like the South Yarra underground station will never be built.

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