Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  tom9876543 Train Controller

I will guess that Box Hill employees live in following locations:
30% - Between Melbourne CBD and Box Hill
30% - East of Box Hill along Lilydale / Belgrave line
10% - Doncaster
15% - Templestowe
10% - Other suburbs directly on proposed loop line like Clayton, Cheltenham etc.
5% - Other
What statistical proof do you have to back up this guess?
I don't even mind if this is valid as it doesn't actually present a case for NOT going through Box Hill.

The point (biggest, number one point) of SRL is not to make decent existing PT trips faster, but to get new people using PT and out of their cars.

SRL opens up Box Hill to many more commuters, beyond those that can already get there easily (you're right in that it won't help them). There can be no argument that there are more employers at Box Hill than anywhere else nearby - SRL provides a vast new catchment of people who can get there using efficient PT.
LeroyW

It is reasonable to state the new loop line wouldn't help 80% of existing employees in Box Hill. True I don't have proof, but it is a reasonable prediction.

Because the loop line won't help existing Box Hill commuters, it is better for the loop line to go via Blackburn.
New employers and new commuters will go to Blackburn. There will be a huge amount of property development at Blackburn, if it is confirmed the new loop line stops there.

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  justarider Junior Train Controller

Blackburn station was build 136 years ago to support a  group of  rapacious property developers that took mugs for all they could get.

According to Tom nothing has changed.  It's all about real estate profits and bugger good sense.

cheers
John
  John.Z Train Controller

I believe @tom9876543 is land banking in blackburn, and is getting quite upset that Box Hill has taken off and has left blackburn behind.
  True Believers Deputy Commissioner

"New employers and new commuters will go to Blackburn. There will be a huge amount of property development at Blackburn, if it is confirmed the new loop line stops there."
Under this logic I think now that Fawkner is confirmed to be on the outer suburban loop, I bet property developers and businesses would love to demolish the grave yard to enable new employers and new commuters work there.

Fawkner will be now known as a place to go.

Putting a station there doesn't mean Blackburn would become like Boxhill and become a central hub.

Monash, Doncaster & the Airport are also major commuter hubs and don't even have a rail line. Rail lines should go to existing employment hubs, they don't always create new employment hubs. Blackburn is like Fawkner, nothing special, nothing to really attractive to encourage densification and employment, a station on an orbital loop wouldn't change that, people still rather go to Boxhill, since this is already established as one.
  Lockie91 Locomotive Driver

I will guess that Box Hill employees live in following locations:
30% - Between Melbourne CBD and Box Hill
30% - East of Box Hill along Lilydale / Belgrave line
10% - Doncaster
15% - Templestowe
10% - Other suburbs directly on proposed loop line like Clayton, Cheltenham etc.
5% - Other
What statistical proof do you have to back up this guess?
I don't even mind if this is valid as it doesn't actually present a case for NOT going through Box Hill.

The point (biggest, number one point) of SRL is not to make decent existing PT trips faster, but to get new people using PT and out of their cars.

SRL opens up Box Hill to many more commuters, beyond those that can already get there easily (you're right in that it won't help them). There can be no argument that there are more employers at Box Hill than anywhere else nearby - SRL provides a vast new catchment of people who can get there using efficient PT.

It is reasonable to state the new loop line wouldn't help 80% of existing employees in Box Hill. True I don't have proof, but it is a reasonable prediction.

Because the loop line won't help existing Box Hill commuters, it is better for the loop line to go via Blackburn.
New employers and new commuters will go to Blackburn. There will be a huge amount of property development at Blackburn, if it is confirmed the new loop line stops there.
tom9876543
Its not reasonable to state anything when you don't have proof.

Box Hill has;
26,000 Jobs
65,000 Internations Students
6,000 residents in it core

Expected population of 25,000 in 2030

The busiest transport interchange in the eastern suburbs.

Thats now without SRL, once Box Hill becomes even more accessible to people in more suburbs the area will explode. That is the idea of this. The foundations for a mini CBD have already been laid, SRL is about growing these and taking pressure of the Inner City. Not everyone is going to get a station in there backyard, nor should they.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Because the loop line won't help existing Box Hill commuters, it is better for the loop line to go via Blackburn.
New employers and new commuters will go to Blackburn. There will be a huge amount of property development at Blackburn, if it is confirmed the new loop line stops there.
tom9876543
The Government doesn't want every single interchange on the line to become a mini CBD. They want around 5 employment hubs not 20 or so.

Monash, Box Hill, Airport and Sunshine are now pretty much locked in as they are already underway and / or tied into other projects. Pax coming in from Blackburn and beyond change at Box Hill for any one of the above or continue to the current CBD.

As an added bonus some new pax such as Doncaster get access to heavy rail connections and some of the more minor interchange points get a massive uplift in services.

BG
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
"New employers and new commuters will go to Blackburn. There will be a huge amount of property development at Blackburn, if it is confirmed the new loop line stops there."

Under this logic I think now that Fawkner is confirmed to be on the outer suburban loop, I bet property developers and businesses would love to demolish the grave yard to enable new employers and new commuters work there.

Fawkner will be now known as a place to go. Putting a station there doesn't mean Blackburn would become like Boxhill and become a central hub.
True Believers
2 important stops on this line would be Bundoora (LaTrobe Uni) and Broadmeadows. Draw a direct line between the two and you cross under the Upfield line at Fawkner. This doesn't mean that a proposed underground interchange station at Fawkner will be at Fawkner station.

In fact, you can almost guarantee that it won't be. The most logical location would be near the colossal intersection of Sydney Rd, Camp Rd and Mahoney's Rd, near the location of the former Campbellfield station.

You can almost guarantee that the Fawkner Cemetery and the neighbouring Northern Memorial Park won't be touched by developers.
  tom9876543 Train Controller


It is reasonable to state the new loop line wouldn't help 80% of existing employees in Box Hill. True I don't have proof, but it is a reasonable prediction.

Because the loop line won't help existing Box Hill commuters, it is better for the loop line to go via Blackburn.
New employers and new commuters will go to Blackburn. There will be a huge amount of property development at Blackburn, if it is confirmed the new loop line stops there.Its not reasonable to state anything when you don't have proof.

Box Hill has;
26,000 Jobs
65,000 Internations Students
6,000 residents in it core

Expected population of 25,000 in 2030

The busiest transport interchange in the eastern suburbs.

Thats now without SRL, once Box Hill becomes even more accessible to people in more suburbs the area will explode. That is the idea of this. The foundations for a mini CBD have already been laid, SRL is about growing these and taking pressure of the Inner City. Not everyone is going to get a station in there backyard, nor should they.
Lockie91

*lol*

Wow someone lectures me for not providing evidence, then provides their own numbers without any reference to back them up.
Pot calling the kettle black.
  Lockie91 Locomotive Driver


It is reasonable to state the new loop line wouldn't help 80% of existing employees in Box Hill. True I don't have proof, but it is a reasonable prediction.

Because the loop line won't help existing Box Hill commuters, it is better for the loop line to go via Blackburn.
New employers and new commuters will go to Blackburn. There will be a huge amount of property development at Blackburn, if it is confirmed the new loop line stops there.Its not reasonable to state anything when you don't have proof.

Box Hill has;
26,000 Jobs
65,000 Internations Students
6,000 residents in it core

Expected population of 25,000 in 2030

The busiest transport interchange in the eastern suburbs.

Thats now without SRL, once Box Hill becomes even more accessible to people in more suburbs the area will explode. That is the idea of this. The foundations for a mini CBD have already been laid, SRL is about growing these and taking pressure of the Inner City. Not everyone is going to get a station in there backyard, nor should they.
*lol*

Wow someone lectures me for not providing evidence, then provides their own numbers without any reference to back them up.
Pot calling the kettle black.
tom9876543
https://www.planning.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0022/107419/Melbourne-2030-Full-Report.pdf
https://forecast.id.com.au/whitehorse/population-households-dwellings?WebID=300
....
  True Believers Deputy Commissioner

"New employers and new commuters will go to Blackburn. There will be a huge amount of property development at Blackburn, if it is confirmed the new loop line stops there."

Under this logic I think now that Fawkner is confirmed to be on the outer suburban loop, I bet property developers and businesses would love to demolish the grave yard to enable new employers and new commuters work there.

Fawkner will be now known as a place to go. Putting a station there doesn't mean Blackburn would become like Boxhill and become a central hub.

In fact, you can almost guarantee that it won't be. The most logical location would be near the colossal intersection of Sydney Rd, Camp Rd and Mahoney's Rd, near the location of the former Campbellfield station.

You can almost guarantee that the Fawkner Cemetery and the neighbouring Northern Memorial Park won't be touched by developers.
Gman_86
Yeah I wasn't serious about the graves being dug up. That was sarcasm. And to point out why Blackburn station shouldn't be connected to the SRL, just like how Fawkner station isn't the best location either.

Anyways it would make sense if they built a new station and Campbellfield and connect SRL over there. Unfortunately the LXRA decided not to build the staion or duplicate the track and rushed the level crossing removal at Camp road. Future planning am I right?
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne

You can almost guarantee that the Fawkner Cemetery and the neighbouring Northern Memorial Park won't be touched by developers.
Gman_86

Or just that it'll be an interchange only - there are plenty of opportunities to intensify land-use at other stations, I dare say it's ok to have one station that'll just be a station interchange and nothing else.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Anyways it would make sense if they built a new station and Campbellfield and connect SRL over there. Unfortunately the LXRA decided not to build the staion or duplicate the track and rushed the level crossing removal at Camp road. Future planning am I right?
True Believers
While I agree that adding double track and a new station at Camp Rd at the time of removing the crossing would have been a wise move, I disagree that the LXRA are responsible, the fault here lies directly with the government. The LXRA only do what the government tell them to.

At least they have left the space for the second track in the trench they built.
  justarider Junior Train Controller

Anyways it would make sense if they built a new station and Campbellfield and connect SRL over there. Unfortunately the LXRA decided not to build the staion or duplicate the track and rushed the level crossing removal at Camp road. Future planning am I right?
While I agree that adding double track and a new station at Camp Rd at the time of removing the crossing would have been a wise move, I disagree that the LXRA are responsible, the fault here lies directly with the government. The LXRA only do what the government tell them to.

At least they have left the space for the second track in the trench they built.
Gman_86
I suggest that we all look more carefully at the SRL video.

When they say "Fawkner", they do NOT say "Fawkner Station".
Probably didn't want to say "yeah let's change trains at a cemetery".

The video is at Box Forest Road / Sydney Road - that is GOWRIE STATION.

So why all this talk about yet another new station in the middle of industrial nowhere (Camp Rd)
when the residential suburb of Fawkner is already served just down the road?

And yes, Gowrie station does need improvements of parking and access for the surrounding areas.

PS: of course the trench is 2 tracks wide. So is the bridge over the Ring Road. PT planners aren't always stupid.

cheers
John
  TOQ-1 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
They announced that the Western section of the SRL isn't as well developed as the rest of the loop. I would imagine that given the changes that are already planned for the Upfield Line (future duplication, extension to Wallan, future LX removals, possible rerouting of V/Line Trains etc.) there isn't too much commitment on where the interchange will be.

Given that the Metro Tunnel changed several times in certain ways (under city loop vs over city loop is one example) over the planning period and is still on track to be delivered by 2025, there is plenty of time for changes to be made in the 30 year time frame of the SRL being built, especially when being done in sections.


EDIT: The information for the SRL seems to have been deleted from the Government's "Victoria's Big Build" website, including the general information and the PDFs. Wonder why that's happened.
  potatoinmymouth Assistant Commissioner

Have they got in trouble for using government funds to advertise election promises? Or has someone just messed up the website?
  True Believers Deputy Commissioner

Fitted the Suburban loop onto the PTV network development plan

  ptvcommuter Beginner

My Orbital Line would be:

Sandringham (Extension)
Sandringham East (Extension)
Southland (Original Terminus)
Clarinda
Clayton
Monash
Glen Waverley
Burwood
Box Hill
Doncaster
Lower Tempelstowe
Heidelberg  
Bundoora
Reservior
Fawkner
Broadmeadows
Airport
Keilor
Sunshine North
Sunshine
Tarneit
Werribee East
Werribee (Original Terminus)
Point Cook (Extension)
  reubstar6 Junior Train Controller

Having considered the plan, I wonder if there should be a station in Gladstone Park/Greenvale. These areas are fairly large (especially Greenvale) and lack public transport access. In the short term, a tram extension of route 59 to Gladstone Park would probably suffice.
  ngarner Beginner

Location: Seville
Victoria's Big Build web site has the SRL page restored
  northbritish Chief Train Controller

Well the SRL proposal is really doing its job as a distraction from the failure of the Andrews government to address current issues with public transport.
  potatoinmymouth Assistant Commissioner

Well the SRL proposal is really doing its job as a distraction from the failure of the Andrews government to address current issues with public transport.
northbritish

I’m going to take the bait here.

They’ve ordered 65 new metro trains, 30 new trams, 20(ish? Can’t remember the exact figure) new VLos, refurbed the Comengs.

Started the Metro Tunnel, initiated (and persuaded the Feds to fund) a bigger country rail capital works program than the RFR, duplicated the Heidelberg tunnel, extended the line to Mernda.

Removed 29 level crossings, and in doing so, rebuilt massive swathes of the metropolitan rail network to 21st century standards.

Recontracted Metro and Yarra Trams to much higher performance standards that they’ve failed to meet so far.

That is just off the top of my head.

I don’t consider myself a rusted-on Labor supporter by any stretch, but I’m thoroughly sick of the Liberal schtick that attempts to pin Labor as a party of inaction, because it simply doesn’t make any sense.

In fact, I’m thoroughly sick of the rhetoric from both sides of “only Labor has a plan to deal with...” and “only the Liberal Party can address”. I pay enough taxes to demand that both parties have a plan and spend their time trying to convince me why their vision for this state is superior. I’m having a very hard time believing that Matthew Guy’s vision for public transport, on what’s been promised so far, is anything like as comprehensive as Dan’s.
  potatoinmymouth Assistant Commissioner

I found this interesting paragraph in a journal article referenced below (no link, sorry).

Conversely, the relatively poor average closeness centrality scores in Zuid Holland, the Australian and US cities are linked to the relatively wide spacing of places of activity. In Zuid Holland this relates to the conurbation’s multi-nuclear form without a single overarching center. In Australia and the United States, places of activity tend to be separated by expanses of low-density suburban fabric, usually lacking in high-speed public transport infrastructure that could make up for the spatial discontinuity. Perth is the Australian exception where the principal public transport spine (the fastest suburban rail service in the sample cities) is optimized for the specific conditions of a low-density city with relatively weak sub-centers.


This study, which analysed public transport accessibility in 20 large global cities, considered "closeness centrality" as a measure of the impacts of service frequency and travel time between any two given points on the network. The Suburban Rail Loop, I suspect, has the potential to radically improve Melbourne's score on this front in a manner which improved orbital bus networks would fail to match. Another initiative that has been discussed in this thread which would help this score is the RFI's south-east fast line proposal.

Later:
Otherwise, among the Australasian and North American sample, only Sydney has more than half of all residents and jobs within walking distance of public transport at the SNAMUTS standard. This reflects Sydney’s longstanding policy of urban intensification around rail stations, higher settlement density, and greater constraints to outer suburban expansion compared to its regional peers.


The SRL's expected benefits to suburban employment clusters will only materialise if government policy actively encourages development near the new stations and actively discourages employment centres developing elsewhere.

Further:
The global betweenness indicator benchmarks the attractiveness of the public transport system as a whole to facilitate movement and accessibility across a case study city, allowing for comparison between cities. It is affected by the urban compactness and contiguity bias seen in the network coverage indicator. The catchment size of a typical journey path measure, designed to compensate for this bias, determines the number of residents and jobs traveled past on a public transport journey of average length in the respective metropolitan area. This figure is influenced by the concentration of activities in each nodal catchment area as well as the propensity of the network to attract passengers (or not) along geographical detours that may lengthen the journey but offer shorter travel times and better service frequencies.

...

Zuid Holland, Melbourne, and Zurich occupy an intermediate position. For Zuid Holland and Melbourne as relatively large cities, this could be read as a lower-than -expected performance; however unsurprisingly, since this indicator strongly rewards compact, dense, and contiguously urbanized settlement areas and penalizes spatial discontinuities, regardless of whether they are generated by topographical constraints or result from policy decisions or historical trends.

...

In such cases, the network configuration tends to encourage longer-than-necessary trips (in terms of geographical distance and by extension, number of other activity centers passed along the way). At the lower end of the scale, Melbourne’s and Zuid Holland’s similar results may be attributed to the incidence of “missing links” between neighboring activity centers.


In other words, the benefits generated by the SRL will almost certainly massively contribute to the overall attractiveness of public transport and substantially improve Melbourne's global standing in the provision of suburban services, in a way that incremental upgrades to the existing network simply cannot.

For those who've been questioning the reasons for my total support for this project, this is why: it reflects in near-totality the current state of transport planning theory and will make a generational difference to the way we think about public transport.

Ref: Curtis, Carey, and Jan Scheurer. "Performance Measures for Public Transport Accessibility: Learning from International Practice." Journal of Transport and Land Use 10, no. 1 (2017): 93-118.
  True Believers Deputy Commissioner

Victoria's Big Build web site has the SRL page restored
ngarner
Not quite the video link on the SRL page is locked, unable to access it on the website.
  Crossover Junior Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
Well the SRL proposal is really doing its job as a distraction from the failure of the Andrews government to address current issues with public transport.

I’m going to take the bait here.

They’ve ordered 65 new metro trains, 30 new trams, 20(ish? Can’t remember the exact figure) new VLos, refurbed the Comengs.

Started the Metro Tunnel, initiated (and persuaded the Feds to fund) a bigger country rail capital works program than the RFR, duplicated the Heidelberg tunnel, extended the line to Mernda.

Removed 29 level crossings, and in doing so, rebuilt massive swathes of the metropolitan rail network to 21st century standards.

Recontracted Metro and Yarra Trams to much higher performance standards that they’ve failed to meet so far.

That is just off the top of my head.

I don’t consider myself a rusted-on Labor supporter by any stretch, but I’m thoroughly sick of the Liberal schtick that attempts to pin Labor as a party of inaction, because it simply doesn’t make any sense.

In fact, I’m thoroughly sick of the rhetoric from both sides of “only Labor has a plan to deal with...” and “only the Liberal Party can address”. I pay enough taxes to demand that both parties have a plan and spend their time trying to convince me why their vision for this state is superior. I’m having a very hard time believing that Matthew Guy’s vision for public transport, on what’s been promised so far, is anything like as comprehensive as Dan’s.
potatoinmymouth
Do the Libs actually HAVE a vision for Public transport ?
And is that appalling "Policy "(I use the term loosely ) of 50 Grade Separated Road intersections still on the agenda ? that seems to have gone quiet
  ngarner Beginner

Location: Seville
For all Matthew Guys railfan background he seems to be locked in the same mould as Tony Abbott was: road is where the money needs to go!
The Liberal candidate (forgotten her name) who is in the Bayswater area has a large roof mounted billboard at the corner of Mountain Hwy and Boronia Rd saying they will build the East-West Link - even after all the information that came out after the last election showed the CBR is well below 1.0 and various studies show little traffic actual currently goes from the Eastern to Citylink (Daniel Bowen posted something on this topic about four years ago, from memory).
Neil

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