Benalla freight

 
  Fatty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Is the siding planned for accesss to the main at both ends or is it a lead off the yard ?

Just thinking operationally how will this work ?
freightgate

Looks like there will only be a connection at the "southern" end of the site. The only sensible way I can see it working is that there will be two roads so that locos can run around the train on site. From what I've seen it looks like this will be the case.

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Is the siding planned for accesss to the main at both ends or is it a lead off the yard ?

Just thinking operationally how will this work ?

Looks like there will only be a connection at the "southern" end of the site. The only sensible way I can see it working is that there will be two roads so that locos can run around the train on site. From what I've seen it looks like this will be the case.
Fatty
You're making the rather radical assumption that the concept of "sensible" made an appearance in the design contract.
  Fatty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Is the siding planned for accesss to the main at both ends or is it a lead off the yard ?

Just thinking operationally how will this work ?

Looks like there will only be a connection at the "southern" end of the site. The only sensible way I can see it working is that there will be two roads so that locos can run around the train on site. From what I've seen it looks like this will be the case.
You're making the rather radical assumption that the concept of "sensible" made an appearance in the design contract.
potatoinmymouth
I can't see ARTC allowing trains to regularly set back along the main line over 3 kms across multiple level crossings.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
A runaround road in the siding area would be cheaper than another set of mainline points and associated signalling especially as the trains will presumably reverse at the concrete siding.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Is the siding planned for accesss to the main at both ends or is it a lead off the yard ?

Just thinking operationally how will this work ?

Looks like there will only be a connection at the "southern" end of the site. The only sensible way I can see it working is that there will be two roads so that locos can run around the train on site. From what I've seen it looks like this will be the case.
You're making the rather radical assumption that the concept of "sensible" made an appearance in the design contract.
I can't see ARTC allowing trains to regularly set back along the main line over 3 kms across multiple level crossings.
Fatty
There's only a single level crossing between Benalla and the concrete plant, theres only base preparation for  a single set of points onto the main line. On Friday when I went past, as far as I could see the earth works for the loading yard where not well defined enough to tell if there was going to be a loop there.
At the concrete sleeper plant at Bomen in NSW (it appears to back in operation) there is no siding loop in the loading yard, Any train entering the siding there, the loco will have run around in the Bomen loop, go towards Wagga until the rear of the train clears, the level crossing, then back into the siding.
The moves required at Benalla without a loop in the sidng will be little different.

Note: From my conversations with drivers, they do NOT like backing those sort of distances, Although when they were doing the ballast work on the Albury West line, the ballast trains were regularly backing 30 kilometres, In this case though there was a van at each end of the train and a safe worker was in the rear van talking to the driver.

woodford
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Propelling trains on running lines in normal circumstances is madness.
  CPH8 Locomotive Fireman

Propelling trains on running lines in normal circumstances is madness.
YM-Mundrabilla
Passenger trains in North America are regularly propelled. We rode on one from LA to San Diego that was pulled going down and pushed going back. Similarly with the suburban double deckers in Toronto. Also we were on an AMTRAK from LA to Seattle that encountered a tree across the line and reversed for about 30 miles, albeit at slow speed
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Of course they may well choose to run the trains with a Loco at each end.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
By propelling trains I meant in the traditional sense where the crew/loco is at the trailing end not the European or Tasmanian :oops:arrangement where the driver has a cab at the front regardless of the position of the loco.

A loco at each end probably doubles the crew cost plus the costs of the extra loco; all as a substitute for a few metres of yard track and two hand operated turnouts.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Like most things rail in Victoria the yard was torn out to save costs and reduce viability of operation.  I don't think there are stabling tracks at the yard which could be used woodford.  This would be for running around a train but also for storage of additional wagons as the cement traffic will be more than once a day is the rumour.  Two sets will be required.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

By propelling trains I meant in the traditional sense where the crew/loco is at the trailing end not the European or Tasmanian :oops:arrangement where the driver has a cab at the front regardless of the position of the loco.

A loco at each end probably doubles the crew cost plus the costs of the extra loco; all as a substitute for a few metres of yard track and two hand operated turnouts.
YM-Mundrabilla
Some advantages of a loco at each end, first Europe can get away with a loco at one end and a drivers cab at the other because they mostly use electric traction and they are using loco's up to 11,000bhp, In the US 4400bhp pass loco's are availible. this will make a single loco pass have a reasonable performance level.

If we are EVER have a HOPE of running 160kph pass services in Victoria one MUST look at pass rolling stock thats at least 11bhp/ton, preferably a good deal more than that. This would mean a typical 6 car pass would a minimum prime mover power of 6000bhp, this will need two at least 3000bhp loco's, one each end the obvious consist.
Another advantage of not having to break the consist is the considerable reduction in time when reversing the train at either end of its run.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Like most things rail in Victoria the yard was torn out to save costs and reduce viability of operation.  I don't think there are stabling tracks at the yard which could be used woodford.  This would be for running around a train but also for storage of additional wagons as the cement traffic will be more than once a day is the rumour.  Two sets will be required.
bevans
Its not clear what you are refering to here, also what will be done greatly depends on how much money is availible, a couple of comments though....

To put in extra loops and storage tracks in Benalla on the Oaklands line would cost VLine little, no signalling is required and second hand turnouts and suitable track is readily availlible.

If there is to be two trains a day from the plant two loading tracks and a 3rd run around track would be by far the simplest setup.

woodford
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Like most things rail in Victoria the yard was torn out to save costs and reduce viability of operation.  I don't think there are stabling tracks at the yard which could be used woodford.  This would be for running around a train but also for storage of additional wagons as the cement traffic will be more than once a day is the rumour.  Two sets will be required.
bevans
The new concrete siding will be about 3km east, so whatever is in Benalla now, or was in the past, has no bearing. If there is only a dead end siding provided then at least 2-3km of propelling will be needed, else push and pull for the whole trip.

EDIT - don't forget that this siding wont be there for its initial purpose for more than a couple of years.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Perhaps the old story ?:

Save a $1 on the capital cost (Big tick for me)
Spend a $ squillion on WE* (That's your problem mate)

* WE = Working Expenses
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Once the siding is commissioned there is no reason at all why it cannot continue to be used for other customers across the nation after all it is on standard gauge.

Can anyone provide a google map reference it is becoming confusing.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
I have this for Benalla yard

https://binged.it/2Rdw3MH
  Fatty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
There's only a single level crossing between Benalla and the concrete plant, theres only base preparation for  a single set of points onto the main line. On Friday when I went past, as far as I could see the earth works for the loading yard where not well defined enough to tell if there was going to be a loop there.
At the concrete sleeper plant at Bomen in NSW (it appears to back in operation) there is no siding loop in the loading yard, Any train entering the siding there, the loco will have run around in the Bomen loop, go towards Wagga until the rear of the train clears, the level crossing, then back into the siding.
The moves required at Benalla without a loop in the sidng will be little different.

Note: From my conversations with drivers, they do NOT like backing those sort of distances, Although when they were doing the ballast work on the Albury West line, the ballast trains were regularly backing 30 kilometres, In this case though there was a van at each end of the train and a safe worker was in the rear van talking to the driver.

woodford
woodford


You're right, there is only a single level crossing, for some reason I pictured two.

When I went past on Wednesday and Thursday it looked to me like there was going to be two roads in the siding with room to run around at each end. I'm back out that way tomorrow so I'll have another look.

Setting back in to yards, like the move you describe in Bomen, is very common. It's made easier in Bomen now as the level crossing you mention is no longer in use. Setting back many kilometres along the main line is not common and I highly doubt it will be part of the operating plan.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

With a rail siding in place and consequently lower transport costs it’s pounds to peanuts the plant will be involved to some extent in the Metro Tunnel and North East Link as well, taking it out to nearly 2030. Not to mention the Airport Link - a certainty regardless of the November result - and the possible SRL.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
With a rail siding in place and consequently lower transport costs it’s pounds to peanuts the plant will be involved to some extent in the Metro Tunnel and North East Link as well, taking it out to nearly 2030. Not to mention the Airport Link - a certainty regardless of the November result - and the possible SRL.
potatoinmymouth

I would expect more and more output from the plant.  What about inbound sand etc?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Once the siding is commissioned there is no reason at all why it cannot continue to be used for other customers across the nation after all it is on standard gauge.

Can anyone provide a google map reference it is becoming confusing.
x31
Lat 36 31.633S
Lon 146 1.619E

Use Google Earth, Google maps image is not as up todate

THe position given is around aprox where the connection to main line will be.

woodford
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

With a rail siding in place and consequently lower transport costs it’s pounds to peanuts the plant will be involved to some extent in the Metro Tunnel and North East Link as well, taking it out to nearly 2030. Not to mention the Airport Link - a certainty regardless of the November result - and the possible SRL.

I would expect more and more output from the plant.  What about inbound sand etc?
bevans
Sand coming from down the road in Lima South. No chance of rail haulage there.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Another potential Rail customer located at  36°32'12.85"S 146° 0'24.65"E who could be connected?

The siding is damn long.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

There's only a single level crossing between Benalla and the concrete plant, theres only base preparation for  a single set of points onto the main line. On Friday when I went past, as far as I could see the earth works for the loading yard where not well defined enough to tell if there was going to be a loop there.
At the concrete sleeper plant at Bomen in NSW (it appears to back in operation) there is no siding loop in the loading yard, Any train entering the siding there, the loco will have run around in the Bomen loop, go towards Wagga until the rear of the train clears, the level crossing, then back into the siding.
The moves required at Benalla without a loop in the sidng will be little different.

Note: From my conversations with drivers, they do NOT like backing those sort of distances, Although when they were doing the ballast work on the Albury West line, the ballast trains were regularly backing 30 kilometres, In this case though there was a van at each end of the train and a safe worker was in the rear van talking to the driver.

woodford


You're right, there is only a single level crossing, for some reason I pictured two.

When I went past on Wednesday and Thursday it looked to me like there was going to be two roads in the siding with room to run around at each end. I'm back out that way tomorrow so I'll have another look.
Fatty
Another reference is the SCT freight centre at Barnawatha, that has from memory 3 tracks and loco storage siding, So from this one would assume at least a runaround loop at Benalla East.

woodford
  ozfreight Chief Train Controller

Location: hawthorn 3122
With a rail siding in place and consequently lower transport costs it’s pounds to peanuts the plant will be involved to some extent in the Metro Tunnel and North East Link as well, taking it out to nearly 2030. Not to mention the Airport Link - a certainty regardless of the November result - and the possible SRL.

I would expect more and more output from the plant.  What about inbound sand etc?
Sand coming from down the road in Lima South. No chance of rail haulage there.
potatoinmymouth
and cement?
  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC
With a rail siding in place and consequently lower transport costs it’s pounds to peanuts the plant will be involved to some extent in the Metro Tunnel and North East Link as well, taking it out to nearly 2030. Not to mention the Airport Link - a certainty regardless of the November result - and the possible SRL.

I would expect more and more output from the plant.  What about inbound sand etc?
Sand coming from down the road in Lima South. No chance of rail haulage there.
potatoinmymouth
Gauge conversion of the Tatong line?  Oh - hang on, there's nothing left to regauge... Very Happy

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