BACK ON TOPIC I HOPE @potatoinmymouth I had time to reflect on your description of the overcrowding for the the west, and your advocacy of MM2 to solve it. A lot of other things are currently in the melting pot and pie in the sky. When I said there are already 2 line for Werribee, you could expand that to 4 if you consider the whole area as a generic whole. Werribee to City Altona Loop to City Wyndham Vale to City Williamstown to City they sure all get squeezed together at Newport(3) then Footscray(4). Then off to SCS and/or City Loop competing for space. Not going to get any more TPH with the existing setup. I'm just not convinced that MM2 is the only answer. As we speak, MM1 is happening. That will remove all of the Dandenong and Sunbury traffic from the City Loop, add back a bit (but not all) for Frankston. The unanswered piece of the puzzle is "what will share the MM1 with Sunbury?". We have contenders MARL Wyndham Vale Melton shock horror! Werribee/Albion/Williamstown - all or some of them. It doesn't really matter which, the point being whichever is chosen eases off the pressure on the other lines and the City Loop. All will be revealed, we hope, with the SRL Business Case. It seems likely that an Airport link tunnel will swallow up 2 (if not 3) of the lines from the west. SCS managers are keen to get as many SHOPPERS (aka passengers) to visit as possible. This leaves Werribee et al in a better position to utilize either City Loop, and some of the paths from Footscray UP. or MM1, bigger trains, and turn back (at Hawksburn ??) Remaining a "minor" squeeze point Newport to Footscray, maybe a 3rd/4th track to enable a lot more express and TPH. There is room. I know I have just crossed over to the dark side of foam. Be kind. cheers John

MM1 will have Sunbury and Metro running through it. Wyndham Vale will run via the Regional Rail Link tracks. Airport Rail, Geelong and Ballarat run via the MARL tracks
MM2 will improve services for Williamstown/Altona while massively improving the Werribee Line Service. Extension to Blackforest Rd/West Werribee will also benefit Werribee passengers.

Quadruplication Footscray to Newport isn’t a better alternative than MM2 because then you have a squeeze at Footscray. MM2 also improves travel times and makes it better to travel with train than over the West Gate fwy

I'm so pleased that you know what is in the MARL business case. It's supposed to be a secret.

Of course Sunbury and some other Metro will go though MM1.

The point being Airport Rail, Wyndham Vale, Melton, Werribee and Altona will ALL be Metro sparks.
But RRL has no sparks , and probably never will have.

Many choices, and no answers yet. So we build MM2 on assumption and ignorance ?

PS: For those that haven't noticed or forgot. The Geelong/Warrnambool Region trains no longer use the Footscray/Newport/Werribee tracks. Giving capacity back to Metro.

cheers
John

BACK ON TOPIC I HOPE

@potatoinmymouth I had time to reflect on your description of the overcrowding for the the west, and your advocacy of MM2 to solve it.

A lot of other things are currently in the melting pot and pie in the sky.

When I said there are already 2 line for Werribee, you could expand that to 4 if you consider the whole area as a generic whole.

• Werribee to City
• Altona Loop to City
• Wyndham Vale to City
• Williamstown to City

they sure all get squeezed together at Newport(3) then Footscray(4). Then off to SCS and/or City Loop competing for space.
Not going to get any more TPH with the existing setup. I'm just not convinced that MM2 is the only answer.

As we speak, MM1 is happening. That will remove all of the Dandenong and Sunbury traffic from the City Loop, add back a bit (but not all) for Frankston.
The unanswered piece of the puzzle is "what will share the MM1 with Sunbury?". We have contenders

• MARL
• Wyndham Vale
• Melton
• shock horror! Werribee/Albion/Williamstown - all or some of them.

It doesn't really matter which, the point being whichever is chosen eases off the pressure on the other lines and the City Loop.

All will be revealed, we hope, with the SRL Business Case.
It seems likely that an Airport link tunnel will swallow up 2 (if not 3) of the lines from the west. SCS managers are keen to get as many SHOPPERS (aka passengers) to visit as possible.
This leaves Werribee et al in a better position to utilize either

• City Loop, and some of the paths from Footscray UP.

    or

• MM1, bigger trains, and turn back (at Hawksburn ??)

Remaining a "minor" squeeze point Newport to Footscray, maybe a 3rd/4th track to enable a lot more express and TPH. There is room.

I know I have just crossed over to the dark side of foam. Be kind.

cheers
John

MM1 is being built to seperate lines and create "Metro Lines"
Sunbury will certainly not being sharing with any other line, defeats the purpose of building MM1.

Gaze into the future a little Sunbury will need at least 24TPH, that leaves very little room to share with anything.

Few Additional points;
-Express trains will be a thing of the past as well. They do little to the running time, shaving a few minutes off. They reduce overall line capacity by using up valuable TPH.

-Werribee will go via MM2 one day. All those jumping up and down that it should be built now, lack the political insight. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, they voting public has a very short memory. Dan Andrews needs a big shiny project to take to the 2022 election and with MM1 wrapping up and all his other new shiny projects well under construction MM2 is what he will dangle in front of the voters in 2022.

-Its frustrating to see many on here wanting to smash lines together, this may have worked up until the early 2000's but with Melbourne's population continuing to grow most lines will need 24TPH on their own. The Cross City Group (Werribee, Williamstown) is a prime example, Werribee/ Laverton services will move the suburban masses into the CBD. While Newport services collect the inner city areas. They will both need more than 24TPH in the decade to come.

-Upfield is the other example, the LX's will have to go. The line needs to be extended to Craigieburn to enable a two tier service. HCS is (theoretically) capable of 32 TPH. Let's say 30 TPH, thats a train every two minutes from Craigieburn during peak. 4 Minutes on each line. The inner area of Essendon and Brunswick continue to sprout apartment blocks. Don't write the Upfield line of as the poor cousin. Its won't always have the sad sad frequency it has now, it receives a boost after MM1 and will need another one as development continues in the inner city area.

I'm so pleased that you know what is in the MARL business case. It's supposed to be a secret.

Of course Sunbury and some other Metro will go though MM1.

The point being Airport Rail, Wyndham Vale, Melton, Werribee and Altona will ALL be Metro sparks.
But RRL has no sparks , and probably never will have.

Many choices, and no answers yet. So we build MM2 on assumption and ignorance ?

PS: For those that haven't noticed or forgot. The Geelong/Warrnambool Region trains no longer use the Footscray/Newport/Werribee tracks. Giving capacity back to Metro.

cheers
John

Yes we have noticed John, that capacity has already been used on the Werribee line. The additional services that were added in 2018 have all but used the spare TPH.

RRL will have sparks, from Wyndham Vale and possibly Melton.

BACK ON TOPIC I HOPE
John

MM1 is being built to seperate lines and create "Metro Lines"
Sunbury will certainly not being sharing with any other line, defeats the purpose of building MM1.

Gaze into the future a little Sunbury will need at least 24TPH, that leaves very little room to share with anything.

Few Additional points;
-Express trains will be a thing of the past as well. They do little to the running time, shaving a few minutes off. They reduce overall line capacity by using up valuable TPH.

-Werribee will go via MM2 one day. All those jumping up and down that it should be built now, lack the political insight. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, they voting public has a very short memory. Dan Andrews needs a big shiny project to take to the 2022 election and with MM1 wrapping up and all his other new shiny projects well under construction MM2 is what he will dangle in front of the voters in 2022.

-Its frustrating to see many on here wanting to smash lines together, this may have worked up until the early 2000's but with Melbourne's population continuing to grow most lines will need 24TPH on their own. The Cross City Group (Werribee, Williamstown) is a prime example, Werribee/ Laverton services will move the suburban masses into the CBD. While Newport services collect the inner city areas. They will both need more than 24TPH in the decade to come.

-Upfield is the other example, the LX's will have to go. The line needs to be extended to Craigieburn to enable a two tier service. HCS is (theoretically) capable of 32 TPH. Let's say 30 TPH, thats a train every two minutes from Craigieburn during peak. 4 Minutes on each line. The inner area of Essendon and Brunswick continue to sprout apartment blocks. Don't write the Upfield line of as the poor cousin. Its won't always have the sad sad frequency it has now, it receives a boost after MM1 and will need another one as development continues in the inner city area.

24 TPH wow I had no idea !!

last time I looked (5 minutes ago) , between 6:55am and 9:02 am there are 18 UP trains from Sunbury/Watergardens.
That makes 9 TPH

With MM1 introducing HCMT, you are predicting a X 3 growth for Sunbury. Wow !!

Werribee/Newport is a lot busier than Sunbury, and that is the point.
Sunbury line HAS capacity, Werribee does not. Share a little. It's not smashing together, it's best use of scarce resource.

Express only stuff up the schedule where there is no capacity. Take a look where they do actually work.
From Box Hill, Moorabbin, Caulfield it's great to be flying past multiple SAS trains and arriving 10-15 minutes quicker.
They do not eat up TPH, as you imagine. eg: Box Hiil express to Loop, SAS to FS : no contention between the two.

The lines in the north suburbs are screwed, but please don't lower everybody else to the same crap standard.
The point of rail improvement is to IMPROVE the service. Not some lowest denominator.

MM1 is one improve, MARL another. MM2 I'm still not convinced.

cheers
John

The unanswered piece of the puzzle is "what will share the MM1 with Sunbury?". We have contenders

• MARL
• Wyndham Vale
• Melton
• shock horror! Werribee/Albion/Williamstown - all or some of them.

Minor point about Newport lines getting access to MM1 is that new junctions or flyovers would have to be added in the relatively short space between Footscray and the tunnel entrance which, obviously, includes the Maribynong River with its three bridges and the Regional Rail flyover of the Newport line. I wouldn't want to try to squeeze more into that space as a flying junction and an at- level junction would cause more congestion and hinder the flow of existing, let alone new, traffic more than the Regional Rail junction near Deer Park or Sunshine.

I have an idea that I've read that Melton is the eventual fourth line for MM1 but can't back it up off the top of my head.

Neil

The unanswered piece of the puzzle is "what will share the MM1 with Sunbury?". We have contenders

• MARL
• Wyndham Vale
• Melton
• shock horror! Werribee/Albion/Williamstown - all or some of them.
  

Most definitely the Melton line. Wyndham Vale will run via RRL, MARL will have its own tunnel, and Werribee/Albion?(Altona?)/Williamstown will continue to run as the do today, although not to Frankston. Melton duplication is the obvious precursor to electrification and quadruplication, which are essential if Melton is to be part of MM1.

BACK ON TOPIC I HOPE
John

MM1 is being built to seperate lines and create "Metro Lines"
Sunbury will certainly not being sharing with any other line, defeats the purpose of building MM1.

Gaze into the future a little Sunbury will need at least 24TPH, that leaves very little room to share with anything.

Few Additional points;
-Express trains will be a thing of the past as well. They do little to the running time, shaving a few minutes off. They reduce overall line capacity by using up valuable TPH.

-Werribee will go via MM2 one day. All those jumping up and down that it should be built now, lack the political insight. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, they voting public has a very short memory. Dan Andrews needs a big shiny project to take to the 2022 election and with MM1 wrapping up and all his other new shiny projects well under construction MM2 is what he will dangle in front of the voters in 2022.

-Its frustrating to see many on here wanting to smash lines together, this may have worked up until the early 2000's but with Melbourne's population continuing to grow most lines will need 24TPH on their own. The Cross City Group (Werribee, Williamstown) is a prime example, Werribee/ Laverton services will move the suburban masses into the CBD. While Newport services collect the inner city areas. They will both need more than 24TPH in the decade to come.

-Upfield is the other example, the LX's will have to go. The line needs to be extended to Craigieburn to enable a two tier service. HCS is (theoretically) capable of 32 TPH. Let's say 30 TPH, thats a train every two minutes from Craigieburn during peak. 4 Minutes on each line. The inner area of Essendon and Brunswick continue to sprout apartment blocks. Don't write the Upfield line of as the poor cousin. Its won't always have the sad sad frequency it has now, it receives a boost after MM1 and will need another one as development continues in the inner city area.

24 TPH wow I had no idea !!

last time I looked (5 minutes ago) , between 6:55am and 9:02 am there are 18 UP trains from Sunbury/Watergardens.
That makes 9 TPH

With MM1 introducing HCMT, you are predicting a X 3 growth for Sunbury. Wow !!

Werribee/Newport is a lot busier than Sunbury, and that is the point.
Sunbury line HAS capacity, Werribee does not. Share a little. It's not smashing together, it's best use of scarce resource.

Express only stuff up the schedule where there is no capacity. Take a look where they do actually work.
From Box Hill, Moorabbin, Caulfield it's great to be flying past multiple SAS trains and arriving 10-15 minutes quicker.
They do not eat up TPH, as you imagine. eg: Box Hiil express to Loop, SAS to FS : no contention between the two.

The lines in the north suburbs are screwed, but please don't lower everybody else to the same crap standard.
The point of rail improvement is to IMPROVE the service. Not some lowest denominator.

MM1 is one improve, MARL another. MM2 I'm still not convinced.

cheers
John

Currently the Sunbury line has 19 trains in tat two hour block, this is constrained by the City Loop. The reason MM1 is being built if you may have forgotten. When the original MM1 business case was released in 2009, demand on the Sunbury and Melton lines was forecast at a combined 31 TPH. MARL has been dropped from the MM1 because planers said it would be at capacity from day 1, now Melton has a question mark as to wether in will go via MM1. So yes Sunbury may have 9TPH now. It most certainly won't in the years to come. The government just announced an additional 55,000 homes for Sunbury! Sunshine is a National Employment Cluster!

Your solution to Werribee instead of giving it its own dedicated line is to run it via MM1 and stave capacity from one growth corridor to another? Werribee currently has 13 TPH between 7 and 8am. If we were to keep the same timetables we have now then no problem. Both these lines need more capacity. The Behemoth of Point Cook and the East Werribee Employment Precinct.

Futhermore, has has been mentioned before over and over again, express trains do not add to capacity.
An express train from Box Hill will save you 8 minutes. Express trains don't travel any faster they just glide throw stations even if they do run on the third track. Last time I checked there is only one city loop and express or not you going through it.
Secondly they destroy stopping patterns. Metro services are simple turn up and go timetables. Hawthorn for example has a 22 minute gap between services (6.07 - 6.24 - 6.40 - 7.02)
Lastly is counter peak flow, you've got twice and many services running UP as there are DOWN. This is a very poor use of capacity and fleet.

Yes your right, rail improvement is about just that. Which is why I'm at a loss as to why you think robbing Sunbury to give to Werribee is some kind of improvement. Once again right, the lines in the north are "screwed" they didn't enjoy the same post war investment that the east did. Which is why the government is investing over 10 Billion in them.

Currently the Sunbury line has 19 trains in tat two hour block, this is constrained by the City Loop. The reason MM1 is being built if you may have forgotten. When the original MM1 business case was released in 2009, demand on the Sunbury and Melton lines was forecast at a combined 31 TPH. MARL has been dropped from the MM1 because planers said it would be at capacity from day 1, now Melton has a question mark as to wether in will go via MM1. So yes Sunbury may have 9TPH now. It most certainly won't in the years to come. The government just announced an additional 55,000 homes for Sunbury! Sunshine is a National Employment Cluster!

Your solution to Werribee instead of giving it its own dedicated line is to run it via MM1 and stave capacity from one growth corridor to another? Werribee currently has 13 TPH between 7 and 8am. If we were to keep the same timetables we have now then no problem. Both these lines need more capacity. The Behemoth of Point Cook and the East Werribee Employment Precinct.

...

Yes your right, rail improvement is about just that. Which is why I'm at a loss as to why you think robbing Sunbury to give to Werribee is some kind of improvement. Once again right, the lines in the north are "screwed" they didn't enjoy the same post war investment that the east did. Which is why the government is investing over 10 Billion in them.

Finally, a little bit of clarity...

As Lockie says, remember why MM1 is being built in the first place. The Northern Loop runs about 20TPH in AM peak at the moment and could perhaps squeeze one or two more but realistically not many without regular cascading delays starting.  There's already 4 Sunbury line trains that run direct to Flinders St in AM peak because there's no loop path for them and Cragieburn and Sunbury trains are at capacity.

Extra services for Sunbury to meet existing demand + extra services for growth + Melton (most probably) will get you near 20TPH through MM1 shortly after it opens.

So we're back to needing somewhere for those Werribee trains to go. There's a fair bit of capacity on the Newport - Footscray - SCS pair to be used yet but once that is gone, they will need a new path to get people in from the West: Metro 2.

I don't know how quickly patronage is expected to grow out there but given these projects take around a decade from inception to trains running, waiting until we come up against capacity constraints leaves you fighting headaches for years.  I imagine an announcement coming up to 2022, with MM2 done before the 2030 election (won't be by 2026) would see the system bringing on capacity at the right time.

How and where it actually gets built is for robust discussion, but I think the case for needing something like it is fairly clear?

PS: Just realised that basically means no new services for Mernda and Hurstbridge for 10 years, so maybe it will come quicker after all

Currently the Sunbury line has 19 trains in tat two hour block, this is constrained by the City Loop. The reason MM1 is being built if you may have forgotten. When the original MM1 business case was released in 2009, demand on the Sunbury and Melton lines was forecast at a combined 31 TPH. MARL has been dropped from the MM1 because planers said it would be at capacity from day 1, now Melton has a question mark as to wether in will go via MM1. So yes Sunbury may have 9TPH now. It most certainly won't in the years to come. The government just announced an additional 55,000 homes for Sunbury! Sunshine is a National Employment Cluster!

I still count 18 from the PTV timetable (until further notice).

"Constrained by the loop"  stuff & nonsense. There just isn't the demand as far as PTV time-tablers are concerned. Probably they're wrong - write them a letter.
Just because Melton then MARL seem ( we do NOT know) to be dropping out; does not mean that it's because Sunbury needs all those slots.

The high volume of Dandenong trains coming down the tunnel will need somewhere to go, hence the now under construction turn-back at West Footscray. All those trains are sure as heck NOT going to Sunbury, just enough (9+ TPH) to service the demand.

55,000 new homes. Sounds very big and it is. But puny compared to what else is happening around Melbourne. It's about one year's growth. And Sunshine has/will have a lot more transport options than just the Sunbury line.

Your solution to Werribee instead of giving it its own dedicated line is to run it via MM1 and stave capacity from one growth corridor to another? Werribee currently has 13 TPH between 7 and 8am. If we were to keep the same timetables we have now then no problem. Both these lines need more capacity. The Behemoth of Point Cook and the East Werribee Employment Precinct.

I did say Werribee was one (and only one) option of several to share MM1. Probably not the best, but it still is one.
My point is as stated, that whichever service is selected to share MM1, then that releases capacity elsewhere than can be available for Werribee.

But where did you get 13 TPH from ??
Would that be the count at Newport ? (7 Werribee +3 Altona + 3 Williamstown). The next hour at Newport is the same pattern.
Werribee is NOT 13 TPH ; it's 7. Base your growth estimates on that and the "problem" is nowhere near as dire as you pronounce.

Point Cook and surrounds have already been mentioned in the context of "like the Albion Loop".
So why not just re-route Albion south-west to pick up all the new estates. Start/End at Laverton is just a convenience, not a necessity.
Makes no difference to the TPH, those trains would just run further down their line. If more then 3 TPH becomes justified then there is scope.

An express train from Box Hill will save you 8 minutes. Express trains don't travel any faster they just glide throw stations even if they do run on the third track. Last time I checked there is only one city loop and express or not you going through it. Secondly they destroy stopping patterns. Metro services are simple turn up and go timetables. Hawthorn for example has a 22 minute gap between services (6.07 - 6.24 - 6.40 - 7.02)

Try telling all those from the outer space of Liliydale and Belgrave that it's fine, after standing an hour, you can hang on for another 8 minutes.
Express do run faster to Box Hill - centre track  70/80kph, SAS tracks 65kph.

Express could run a LOT faster, but they have to pass a series of island platforms with other passengers standing around.
It's not safe until a solution to keep people away from trains speeding though. Fencing off would be a good start, those platforms are not used (except evening and week-end reduced services).
2 of the worst offenders are about to have LX removed - an opportune time to plan those stations for Express passing through.

But your Hawthorn example is laughable 4 TPH. Just picked a quiet morning hour to prove what ?
At the same period there are only 6 express passing through. Total 10TPH, comparable with your beloved Sunbury at it's peak.

Try a more realistic 7:02 am to 9:02 am. 17 Stopping ( 7 minute gap), 24 Express. That's 20 TPH.
City Loop doesn't usually have a problem with these, and should do more.

What pattern is destroyed ? -  
Metro turn up & go where every route runs fully one side of the Metro area to the other side. And never stops short. And every train on every line is maxed out every time of every day, like grown up train networks (London, Paris, New York). Maybe then there will be a point.
Until then, the planners will trial MM1 - a greenfield quarantined from the rest. It might work, but application to the rest of network is unknowable.

All of this rant just diverts us both from why a multi Billion dollar tunnel is the panacea to all the world's ills. If we don't address the smaller things first, it's just yet another solution looking for a problem. The network already has plenty examples of that.

PS: The cynic is me suggests that MM2 is just a dastardly plot from SCS owners to get more shoppers into their vast shopping centres - commonly mis-described as transport terminals.

cheers
John

I still count 18 from the PTV timetable (until further notice). "Constrained by the loop" stuff & nonsense. There just isn't the demand as far as PTV time-tablers are concerned. Probably they're wrong - write them a letter. Just because Melton then MARL seem ( we do NOT know) to be dropping out; does not mean that it's because Sunbury needs all those slots. The high volume of Dandenong trains coming down the tunnel will need somewhere to go, hence the now under construction turn-back at West Footscray. All those trains are sure as heck NOT going to Sunbury, just enough (9+ TPH) to service the demand. 55,000 new homes. Sounds very big and it is. But puny compared to what else is happening around Melbourne. It's about one year's growth. And Sunshine has/will have a lot more transport options than just the Sunbury line.

Sunbury and Melton trains are overcrowded right now and Capacity is constrained because of the loop. The Metro Tunnel untangles this and gives more capacity to the Sunbury and future Melton Lines.

Then you have more and more commuters changing trains at Footscray from Werribee/Williamstown and Sunshine (Regional/Wyndham Vale) to get onto the Metro Tunnel and travel to destinations such as Parkville

Werribee Line Trains should not eat at this Capacity. Neither should Wyndham Vale Trains. That is why Metro 2 is being built. To cater for the extreme growth on the Werribee Line as well as the Mernda and future Wollert Lines. If Werribee doesn’t justify its own Tunnel for you, then add Tarneit Link from Deer Park to MM2. Or have a Torquay Line stop at all the Geelong Line Stations while the Waurn Ponds High Speed Train speeds through to the city, giving the geelong line travellers luxury to decide where they want to go and link them back to werribee

MM2 also benefits Altona, Williamstown and Hurstbridge Line Services. Quadding Newport To Footscray is papering over the cracks because then you have a huge bottleneck between Footscray and the City.

Sunbury and Melton trains are overcrowded right now and Capacity is constrained because of the loop. The Metro Tunnel untangles this and gives more capacity to the Sunbury and future Melton Lines.

Then you have more and more commuters changing trains at Footscray from Werribee/Williamstown and Sunshine (Regional/Wyndham Vale) to get onto the Metro Tunnel and travel to destinations such as Parkville

Werribee Line Trains should not eat at this Capacity. Neither should Wyndham Vale Trains. That is why Metro 2 is being built. To cater for the extreme growth on the Werribee Line as well as the Mernda and future Wollert Lines. If Werribee doesn’t justify its own Tunnel for you, then add Tarneit Link from Deer Park to MM2. Or have a Torquay Line stop at all the Geelong Line Stations while the Waurn Ponds High Speed Train speeds through to the city, giving the geelong line travellers luxury to decide where they want to go and link them back to werribee

MM2 also benefits Altona, Williamstown and Hurstbridge Line Services. Quadding Newport To Footscray is papering over the cracks because then you have a huge bottleneck between Footscray and the City.

WHAAAAT!!

Melton train do NOT go through the loop, they are RRL.
Crowded Sunbury is being addressed with a humongous over supply of capacity.
Capacity is there to be USED, not hoarded away like a needy child.

do you actually know where MM2 is supposed to go ?

• Why should Werribee pax go to Footscray to change to MM1 to go to Parkville?  MM2 would take them direct.

• Then you take MM2 on an overland jaunt from Newport to Deer Park. Another 15km tunnel?

Bottle neck at Footscray. Did you actually read what I wrote.
An increase to Werribee capacity is contingent upon gaining extra room for Footscray to SCS from another line's release of same.   MM1 and MARL are both actively planning to increase that capacity.

At worst a $500M flyover to cross tracks before the Marybyrnong, compared to a $5B++ MM2 tunnel
OR maybe NOT cross tracks that it does today. (see I just ripped off an band-aid - not stick another on top)

Just for confusion, you condemn the yet to fly "torquay" to a very crap service.

MM2 may be many things, Settled it is not.

cheers
John

*ahem* the Fishermans Bend structure plans will be finalised this year which will guide the scale of development in the area over X years.  Extending trams into the area will probably get done first but over the longer term, a suburb which could potentially have 80,000 people living in it and 80,000 working in it (that's lots of inbound and outbound journeys in both morning and evening peak) will need a heavy rail line.

The leaked update to the PTV heavy rail plan gave some clues on the latest thinking before the politicians overruled things, a 2 phase MM2 would see Newport-Parkville done first to serve growing outer west and, I repeat, Fishermans Bend over the next 20-30 years.

So yeah, everyone calm your farm until the Fishermans Bend structure plan is finalised.

*ahem* the Fishermans Bend structure plans will be finalised this year which will guide the scale of development in the area over X years.  Extending trams into the area will probably get done first but over the longer term, a suburb which could potentially have 80,000 people living in it and 80,000 working in it (that's lots of inbound and outbound journeys in both morning and evening peak) will need a heavy rail line.

The leaked update to the PTV heavy rail plan gave some clues on the latest thinking before the politicians overruled things, a 2 phase MM2 would see Newport-Parkville done first to serve growing outer west and, I repeat, Fishermans Bend over the next 20-30 years.

So yeah, everyone calm your farm until the Fishermans Bend structure plan is finalised.

Then there's things like this: https://www.alumni.unimelb.edu.au/university-announces-new-engineering-campus which show that the current realities of Fishermen's bend are indeed very different to the near future.

1bn is a lot of investment to throw at building in a PT dead zone, so maybe those that control this kind of money know there are firmer plans in place than us mere mortals can see.

1bn is a lot of investment to throw at building in a PT dead zone, so maybe those that control this kind of money know there are firmer plans in place than us mere mortals can see.

Very true. There is no way the Uni committed to that site without some serious plans in place for transport from their alumni on both sides of politics and in the public service.

Melbuni would have carefully chosen that location knowing a station would be nearby, that way their main campus and this one would only be 3-4 stops away from eachother for students.

Although I'm not sure if those plans have been slowed down or changed since victoria lost the new armoured vehicle contract to queensland for the army, which means less engineering jobs in fishermens bend where the victorian bid was to be based, which melbuni would have had a partnership with.

BACK ON TOPIC I HOPE
John

MM1 is being built to seperate lines and create "Metro Lines"
Sunbury will certainly not being sharing with any other line, defeats the purpose of building MM1.

Gaze into the future a little Sunbury will need at least 24TPH, that leaves very little room to share with anything.

Few Additional points;
-Express trains will be a thing of the past as well. They do little to the running time, shaving a few minutes off. They reduce overall line capacity by using up valuable TPH.

-Werribee will go via MM2 one day. All those jumping up and down that it should be built now, lack the political insight. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, they voting public has a very short memory. Dan Andrews needs a big shiny project to take to the 2022 election and with MM1 wrapping up and all his other new shiny projects well under construction MM2 is what he will dangle in front of the voters in 2022.

-Its frustrating to see many on here wanting to smash lines together, this may have worked up until the early 2000's but with Melbourne's population continuing to grow most lines will need 24TPH on their own. The Cross City Group (Werribee, Williamstown) is a prime example, Werribee/ Laverton services will move the suburban masses into the CBD. While Newport services collect the inner city areas. They will both need more than 24TPH in the decade to come.

-Upfield is the other example, the LX's will have to go. The line needs to be extended to Craigieburn to enable a two tier service. HCS is (theoretically) capable of 32 TPH. Let's say 30 TPH, thats a train every two minutes from Craigieburn during peak. 4 Minutes on each line. The inner area of Essendon and Brunswick continue to sprout apartment blocks. Don't write the Upfield line of as the poor cousin. Its won't always have the sad sad frequency it has now, it receives a boost after MM1 and will need another one as development continues in the inner city area.

24 TPH wow I had no idea !!

last time I looked (5 minutes ago) , between 6:55am and 9:02 am there are 18 UP trains from Sunbury/Watergardens.
That makes 9 TPH

With MM1 introducing HCMT, you are predicting a X 3 growth for Sunbury. Wow !!

Werribee/Newport is a lot busier than Sunbury, and that is the point.
Sunbury line HAS capacity, Werribee does not. Share a little. It's not smashing together, it's best use of scarce resource.

Express only stuff up the schedule where there is no capacity. Take a look where they do actually work.
From Box Hill, Moorabbin, Caulfield it's great to be flying past multiple SAS trains and arriving 10-15 minutes quicker.
They do not eat up TPH, as you imagine. eg: Box Hiil express to Loop, SAS to FS : no contention between the two.

The lines in the north suburbs are screwed, but please don't lower everybody else to the same crap standard.
The point of rail improvement is to IMPROVE the service. Not some lowest denominator.

MM1 is one improve, MARL another. MM2 I'm still not convinced.

cheers
John

Hello All,

with respect JustArider John, Express services are really only effective if we have a third line for part of the run, hence why expresses overtaking SAS works on the Box Hill and Moorabin segments . That was fine in the 1960s to 1980s where Peak AM / PM travel was one direction, but by the mid 1990s passenger numbers AM Peak outbound, and PM Peak inbound ( counter flow ) were climbing , and by 2010 were threatening to overwhelm existing capacity. This creates the problem of having enough trains to accomodate the counterflow demand. What you probably do not realise is that many Peak Expresses formed a return service to allow the following SAS to shunt out , which is fine, until you need to have those previous shunts now do another two runs ( there and back )  to meet the increasing demand.

You then are left with choosing to add or extend the Third line to allow for more Peak Expresses, and then work out how to also run additional counterflow services to meet a demand that did not previously exist. Or do you increase total line capacity, at reduced overall Peak speeds, to accomodate the heavier traffic demand ? The greater number of passengers can be moved by increasing line capacity, as a Third line only works in one direction, whilst increased double line capacity works in both directions.

I agree that Expresses are popular with the travellers as it gives the impression of a quick journey home, when in fact the actual time savings compared to a SAS service is generally not greater than five minutes . Going back a bit, I was surprised to be advised that when the Third line to Moorabin service was instituted, the Frankston Express took 61 minutes in the Peak compared to the Frankston SAS taking 59 minutes in the Off peak !

I personally think that there is merit in providing for twin island platforms at certain locations to allow for SAS and Express services to exchange passengers, and allow the Express to continue . I understand that Perth Suburban in WA has an alternate SAS then Express, and Express then SAS schedule to give some passengers a quicker ride, and it also spreads out the Peak crush loading , but this requires both precise scheduling and a timetable that can consistently allow this to happen with minimal apparent delays to passengers. The unfortunate fact that Perth Metro currently has a declining passenger count is probably not a good argument for this idea though.

The point of both MM1 and MM2 is to create two self contained east to west and north to south services respectively , which interchange, BUT do not intersect, with other services , thereby minimising the risk of inter running services causing knock on delays. With Melbourne's current and expected rapid growth this is a sensible approach , though in reality we should have started digging a decade ago, instead of playing catch up, which is the current reality.

With that in mind, providing for a Peak capacity of a train every two or three minutes, and an off peak capacity of a train every ten minutes on all lines is becoming a necessity.

Regards, Radioman.

@Radioman,

Thanks for adding a lot more detail than i did! Daniel Bowen penned a blog about this some time ago and noted that many of those express services would do one peak run then return to the suburbs to be stabled until the PM peak.

And in relation to the slow down in development in Fisherman’s Bend, The Age had an article from last year that properties are waiting to be built, but developers are not keen to start until some form of PT is built. Those appartments will sell for a lot more in there is a light rail built and even more of a date is put on MM2.

waffle waffle ...

Express only stuff up the schedule where there is no capacity. Take a look where they do actually work.
From Box Hill, Moorabbin, Caulfield it's great to be flying past multiple SAS trains and arriving 10-15 minutes quicker.
They do not eat up TPH, as you imagine. eg: Box Hiil express to Loop, SAS to FS : no contention between the two.

The lines in the north suburbs are screwed, but please don't lower everybody else to the same crap standard.
The point of rail improvement is to IMPROVE the service. Not some lowest denominator.

MM1 is one improve, MARL another. MM2 I'm still not convinced.

cheers
John

Hello All,

with respect JustArider John, Express services are really only effective if we have a third line for part of the run, hence why expresses overtaking SAS works on the Box Hill and Moorabin segments . That was fine

etc etc....

With that in mind, providing for a Peak capacity of a train every two or three minutes, and an off peak capacity of a train every ten minutes on all lines is becoming a necessity.

Regards, Radioman.

With respect @Radioman, please read these posts in context. The discuss was about quadding the Newport to Footscray section to allow additional Werribee services, and I did consider all your issues about how it can be complex.

The 3 lines at Box Hill was given as an example.

By the way, The Belgrave/Liliydale line is currently about 3 minute interval in the AM peak.

So what is your point about express stuffing things up ?
Makes life interesting for the making a schedule, but gosh it seems to work fine, even without a preferred 4th line.

cheers
John

By the way, The Belgrave/Liliydale line is currently about 3 minute interval in the AM peak.

So what is your point about express stuffing things up ?
Makes life interesting for the making a schedule, but gosh it seems to work fine, even without a preferred 4th line.

It certainly affects the counter-peak trains, especially in the afternoon. The intervals between up trains out beyond Blackburn to Ringwood in the period 4:40 to 6pm (or thereabouts) shows successive trains running 3 and 12 minutes apart. The 3 minute is to allow the SAS from Blackburn to fit in, so between Blackburn and Box Hill the intervals are 3, 3 and 9.

Running all these express trains to the city is so they can form a down service, but they have to squeeze onto the single up line from Box Hill along with the stopper.

What's with the obsession with cramming junk down the Upfield line?

The opportunity for densification in Moreland is immense, and that can only be supported by turning the line into a proper metro.  

If you want somewhere useful to send it, divert from Campbellfield to the Airport via Broadmeadows and Gladstone Park then dump the rest.  Then you have an usable airport link for the city's north, because the planned airport link via Albion will be of no real use to anybody between the Maribyrnong and Yarra Rivers.

What's with the obsession with cramming junk down the Upfield line?

The opportunity for densification in Moreland is immense, and that can only be supported by turning the line into a proper metro.  

If you want somewhere useful to send it, divert from Campbellfield to the Airport via Broadmeadows and Gladstone Park then dump the rest.  Then you have an usable airport link for the city's north, because the planned airport link via Albion will be of no real use to anybody between the Maribyrnong and Yarra Rivers.

In the short term, sending VLine through Upfield makes a lot of sense. The capacity is there and isn't immediately needed (comapred with Cragieburn where it is constrained) and it is a relatively cheap solution to implement, compared to other options that will add capacity on the Craigieburn.

However, in the long term I completely agree with you - we should be separating regional and metro services and Upfield should have increased capacity for infill development.  North East VLine should eventually go via the Airport or some other non-Metro path.

In terms of diversion, you've actually just described pretty much the route SRL will take. Maybe they will connect up this bit as a separate stage, before filling in the rest around to Doncaster and Box Hill to join the first bit up from Cheltenham.

On MM2

• MM2 can be done in stages, the governments will need a big ticket item to wow the voters and Metro 2 should be that project

• Metro 2 will increase capacity by over 50% on the Mernda and Werribee Lines allowing more, frequent services to run

• It will also increase capacity on the Williamstown, Hurstbridge and Laverton Lines

• Metro 2 will connect to one of the large employment and housing clusters in Fishermends Bend which will cater for an estimated 80,000 residents

• It will connect our city with Interchange at Southern Cross, Flagstaff and Parkville

• Metro 2 will take thousands of cars off our roads from the Werribee, Laverton and Wyndham regions

• It will shorten travel times and allow a future Wollert Line to be constructed  

There are so many benefits for this project and it will cater for around/over 100,000 people per day, probably more. There were people that didn’t support the Metro Tunnel but where are those people now

Just to add to that what ptvcommuter was saying:

There are now community groups supporting metro 2 around 2016-2018, so it's also favourable to the public as well.

https://www.getonboard.org.au/mm2

It's starting to gain a bit of attention on the news too. Especially when SRL came about. It's somewhere in the plans, I still think it could be announced in 2022 for the western section to be built at least

Newport To Parkville needs to be in planning now and have construction start by 2022 at the latest. The western section is needed as the growth on the Werribee Line is extraordinary and Newport will be at capacity again soon.

Think two stations to service the precinct of Fishermends Bend would be sufficient. Personally I would have a station at Montague which would also connect with the Route 96 tram to allow connection with passengers. Montague was on the former Melbourne Rail Line promised in the 2014 election by Dennis Napthine and I think it has some potential this time being part of MM2. Then a Station at Southbank as well as the stations we’ve discussed that will be at Southern Cross, Flagstaff and Parkville.

Time for MM2 and the modernisation of Melbourne’s Rail Network

Why do you need a station at Southbank when it's a short walk from Flinders Street?