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LaTrobe Valley Coal to Hydrogen exported from Hastings

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      Carnot Minister for Railways

    A pilot plant near Loy Yang planned to convert brown coal to Hydrogen is given the go-ahead:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-14/latrobe-valley-coal-to-hydrogen-project-approved/10812464

    If it's commercialised, it's planned to be shipped in large quantities from Hastings.  Could it be railed from Traralgon to Hastings?  Could this be impetus for a rail link from Dandenong to the port?
    Posted: 14 Feb 2019 22:41

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      potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

    I’d love to see it, but this government hasn’t exactly been proactive on freight rail, so I don’t like your chances.


    EDIT: @bevans, that's disgraceful, editing my comment not to enforce site rules but to change the substance of what I said.

    Anyone else who sees this be warned that your comments may be edited at bevans' whim to no longer make sense.
    Posted: 14 Feb 2019 23:19

    Last edited by potatoinmymouth on 15 Feb 2019 09:02; edited 2 times in total
      bevans Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    I’d love to see it, but this government hasn’t exactly been proactive on freight rail, so I don’t like your chances.
    potatoinmymouth

    We can't have 100's of trucks on the road to the Port of Hastings the roads will not take it and the volume is too dangerous.  Rail is the only answer or a pipeline.
    Posted: 15 Feb 2019 07:48
      gippslander Chief Commissioner

    Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
    I’d love to see it, but this government hasn’t exactly been proactive on freight rail, so I don’t like your chances.

    We can't have 100's of trucks on the road to the Port of Hastings the roads will not take it and the volume is too dangerous.  Rail is the only answer or a pipeline.
    bevans
    The current project is only a pilot, with very small production.
    There is no rail connection to Loy Yang - nearest gateway would be Australian Paper at Maryvale or the Morwell GIFT siding.
    Then we face the issue of no direct connectivity to Hastings at Caulfield.
    As hydrogen is classified as dangerous goods, I think it would not be transported by land transport but by pipeline from point to point. In any case, full scale production is several years away.
    Posted: 18 Feb 2019 20:50
      Nightfire Minister for Railways

    Location: Gippsland
    I’d love to see it, but this government hasn’t exactly been proactive on freight rail, so I don’t like your chances.

    We can't have 100's of trucks on the road to the Port of Hastings the roads will not take it and the volume is too dangerous.  Rail is the only answer or a pipeline.
    The current project is only a pilot, with very small production.
    There is no rail connection to Loy Yang - nearest gateway would be Australian Paper at Maryvale or the Morwell GIFT siding.
    Then we face the issue of no direct connectivity to Hastings at Caulfield.
    As hydrogen is classified as dangerous goods, I think it would not be transported by land transport but by pipeline from point to point. In any case, full scale production is several years away.
    gippslander
    I do agree that a pipeline would be the only viable option (on safety grounds)

    That's If any project development gets off the ground, and doesn't get sunk by the green cult movement.
    Posted: 18 Feb 2019 21:06
      bevans Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Could the train run around at Caulfield with a consist of say 20 wagons?

    The siding at Loy Yang could be installed.
    Posted: 18 Feb 2019 21:25
      Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

    Location: On a Thing with Internet
    Could the train run around at Caulfield with a consist of say 20 wagons?

    The siding at Loy Yang could be installed.
    bevans
    you decide, It's probably possible if you split it. Though I would be thrilled to see some new BG traffic, I doubt it.

    http://vicsig.net/infrastructure/location/Caulfield
    Posted: 18 Feb 2019 21:29
      Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

    Location: Norda Fittazroy
    Now for a little pedantry. Brown coal is not converted into hydrogen.  Brown coal (Lignite) is a sedimentary rock form of hydrocarbon i.e. a compound of hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen will be extracted from brown coal.
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 09:52

    Last edited by Valvegear on 19 Feb 2019 09:56; edited 1 time in total
      lkernan Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Melbourne
    It will use 160 tonnes of brown coal from Loy Yang's mine to create three tonnes of hydrogen which will be shipped to Japan at a loading terminal in the Port of Hastings via a specially-designed boat.
    ABC Article

    Well that's efficient isn't it?  
    160 tonnes of coal for 3 tonnes of hydrogen.  That then has to be shipped across the world.

    And they think solar and wind aren't viable.
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 10:04
      x31 Chief Commissioner

    Location: gallifrey
    Hydrogen on road is simply not viable due to risk and it will never get up for a route to the port.  Pipeline and rail are the only viable alternates.  The pipeline will be huge cost and land works and rail less so.  I think rail is the way to go to test the way forward and with less capital costs.
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 10:10
      Carnot Minister for Railways

    It will use 160 tonnes of brown coal from Loy Yang's mine to create three tonnes of hydrogen which will be shipped to Japan at a loading terminal in the Port of Hastings via a specially-designed boat.

    Well that's efficient isn't it?  
    160 tonnes of coal for 3 tonnes of hydrogen.  That then has to be shipped across the world.

    And they think solar and wind aren't viable.
    lkernan
    That's why I reckon Hydrogen Fuel Cell tech will be limited to a very niche market.  Batteries charged either locally or from-the-grid by renewable electricity makes much more sense for most transport applications IMO.
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 10:14

    Last edited by Carnot on 19 Feb 2019 10:15; edited 1 time in total
      wobert Chief Commissioner

    Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
    It will use 160 tonnes of brown coal from Loy Yang's mine to create three tonnes of hydrogen which will be shipped to Japan at a loading terminal in the Port of Hastings via a specially-designed boat.

    Well that's efficient isn't it?  
    160 tonnes of coal for 3 tonnes of hydrogen.  That then has to be shipped across the world.

    And they think solar and wind aren't viable.
    lkernan
    What do they do with the hundred or so ton of the ssh1t that's left over?
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 10:34
      Carnot Minister for Railways

    It will use 160 tonnes of brown coal from Loy Yang's mine to create three tonnes of hydrogen which will be shipped to Japan at a loading terminal in the Port of Hastings via a specially-designed boat.

    Well that's efficient isn't it?  
    160 tonnes of coal for 3 tonnes of hydrogen.  That then has to be shipped across the world.

    And they think solar and wind aren't viable.
    What do they do with the hundred or so ton of the ssh1t that's left over?
    wobert
    Well there are several very big holes in the ground in the Valley...
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 10:57
      wobert Chief Commissioner

    Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
    That'd  be to simple.
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 11:12
      RustyRick Chief Commissioner

    Location: South West Vic
    A better way to convert coal to gas...
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 13:54
      potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

    Hydrogen on road is simply not viable due to risk and it will never get up for a route to the port.
    x31

    Oh yeah of course, because things that go kaboom are never transported by road. What planet are you living on?
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 15:14
      x31 Chief Commissioner

    Location: gallifrey
    There is not a government with regard to residents who would use road for such a dangerous product.
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 17:11
      duttonbay Minister for Railways

    It will use 160 tonnes of brown coal from Loy Yang's mine to create three tonnes of hydrogen which will be shipped to Japan at a loading terminal in the Port of Hastings via a specially-designed boat.

    Well that's efficient isn't it?  
    160 tonnes of coal for 3 tonnes of hydrogen.  That then has to be shipped across the world.

    And they think solar and wind aren't viable.
    lkernan
    I wonder how much potential energy is in the 3 tonnes of hydrogen compared to the 160 tonnes of lignite?
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 17:16
      trainbrain Chief Commissioner

    It will use 160 tonnes of brown coal from Loy Yang's mine to create three tonnes of hydrogen which will be shipped to Japan at a loading terminal in the Port of Hastings via a specially-designed boat.

    Well that's efficient isn't it?  
    160 tonnes of coal for 3 tonnes of hydrogen.  That then has to be shipped across the world.

    And they think solar and wind aren't viable.
    I wonder how much potential energy is in the 3 tonnes of hydrogen compared to the 160 tonnes of lignite?
    duttonbay
    About as much potential that come from the mouths of politicians. NONE.
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 17:44
      speedemon08 Mary

    Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
    Could the train run around at Caulfield with a consist of say 20 wagons?

    The siding at Loy Yang could be installed.
    you decide, It's probably possible if you split it. Though I would be thrilled to see some new BG traffic, I doubt it.

    http://vicsig.net/infrastructure/location/Caulfield
    Dangersdan707
    No chance in hell. You'd effectively knock out a half a station, even if there was the gap *to* run around a train.

    https://reneweconomy.com.au/turnbulls-brown-coal-hydrogen-horror-show-500m-for-3-tonnes-70932/

    “The hydrogen gas will then be transported via truck to a liquefaction and loading terminal at the Port of Hastings. The hydrogen gas will be liquefied then shipped to Kobe in Japan by a ship carrier specifically developed for the task.”
    Somebody
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 18:35
      Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

    Location: On a Thing with Internet
    Could the train run around at Caulfield with a consist of say 20 wagons?

    The siding at Loy Yang could be installed.
    you decide, It's probably possible if you split it. Though I would be thrilled to see some new BG traffic, I doubt it.

    http://vicsig.net/infrastructure/location/Caulfield
    No chance in hell. You'd effectively knock out a half a station, even if there was the gap *to* run around a train.

    https://reneweconomy.com.au/turnbulls-brown-coal-hydrogen-horror-show-500m-for-3-tonnes-70932/

    “The hydrogen gas will then be transported via truck to a liquefaction and loading terminal at the Port of Hastings. The hydrogen gas will be liquefied then shipped to Kobe in Japan by a ship carrier specifically developed for the task.”
    speedemon08
    finally some sanity
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 18:37
      Carnot Minister for Railways

    It sounds like a crazy stupid expensive idea, with a dangerous way of getting it from A to B.
    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 18:48
      skitz Chief Commissioner

    Hydrogen on road is simply not viable due to risk and it will never get up for a route to the port.  Pipeline and rail are the only viable alternates.  The pipeline will be huge cost and land works and rail less so.  I think rail is the way to go to test the way forward and with less capital costs.
    x31
    ..........and yet you drive past equivalent bombs of LPG and petrol every day if one wants to discuss current accepted risk.

    Hydrogen is also transported to the Valley now, in relative small quantities for generator cooling medium.  So the difference is the volume, not that it does not already happen.  Most would not even be aware.

    A current issue in the Valley is transport of asbestos by truck, the carry on of the public is equivalent to as if it were nuclear waste.  Asbestos transport is very much at the small end of the scale when it comes to risk to people.  Yet highly emotive through ignorance more than anything.

    Then there are other substance that travel by truck - caustic, oxygen, acetylene, acid  etc. All kinds of wonderfull nasty substances every day.  Most are blisfully unaware.
    Posted: 20 Feb 2019 10:31
      mikesyd Chief Commissioner

    Location: Lurking
    There is not a government with regard to residents who would use road for such a dangerous product.
    x31
    Yet you want it put on rail, with all the risks of a derailment during a run-around in Caulfield or somewhere, imagine the furore then.

    Look at your favourite news articles for all the derailments in the USA and Canada where chemicals have been spilt, or half a town obliterated when an Oil train derailed and exploded.

    There are plenty of nasties moving about every day on the roads that we don't know about, not to mention what skitz said, all the old unroadworthy cars with a bomb in the form of a fuel tank slung under them.
    Posted: 20 Feb 2019 11:17

    Last edited by mikesyd on 20 Feb 2019 11:20; edited 1 time in total
      x31 Chief Commissioner

    Location: gallifrey
    The councils involved on the route would also need to approve the movement of dangerous goods.  

    Any idea how far the rail siding would need to run to connect to the plant output?
    Posted: 20 Feb 2019 12:05

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