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Station Patronage for all Vic Stations: 2013-2017

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      Carnot Minister for Railways

    An interesting blog post by an urban planner with station patronage data.
    https://philipmallis.com/blog/2019/02/14/station-patronage-in-victoria-2013-2018/

    Some standouts:
    Tarneit is handling 887000+ V/line passengers per year!!!
    Bendigo Station numbers plummeted in 2016/17 (I would blame fare prices and Oct 2016 shutdown) from 450K+ to 407k.
    Epsom has over 6000 passengers P/A but increasing significantly each year.
    Maryborough - 8300.  But add another 1100 from Talbot, 2000 in Clunes, 1100 in Creswick (that's almost 11000 P/A or 30 per day).

    Plenty to ponder....
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 13:41

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      x31 Chief Commissioner

    Location: gallifrey
    With regard Albury passengers 44k per annum is 14% down in the peak with people voting with their feet.  Bairnsdale is 30% more in passenger numbers when Albury was higher than Bairnsdale 15 years ago.  V/Line have really slaughtered that service.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 14:22

    Last edited by x31 on 21 Feb 2019 14:23; edited 1 time in total
      potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

    Indeed. Take WV, Tarneit and Melton off the system - not even including other stations like Deer Park and Rockbank - and you’ve eased the burden on those lines by some 2 million pax/year or 5500/day. (What’s that, 15 full trains?) Absolute no brainer.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 14:22
      x31 Chief Commissioner

    Location: gallifrey
    Swan Hill taking a downward turn as the service has not been improved and is slower than it was 4 years ago.  Unreliability?

    Wendouree has experienced amazing growth.

    The decision to only electrify to Melton is a poor one with 300,000 people getting on at Bacchus Marsh so this again has been poor planning and shortcuts.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 14:25

    Last edited by x31 on 21 Feb 2019 14:26; edited 1 time in total
      x31 Chief Commissioner

    Location: gallifrey
    Seymour much larger than Wallan adding weight to replan of electrification.

    Shame the figures do not include coach stops.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 14:30
      Carnot Minister for Railways

    Swan Hill taking a downward turn as the service has not been improved and is slower than it was 4 years ago.  Unreliability?

    Wendouree has experienced amazing growth.

    The decision to only electrify to Melton is a poor one with 300,000 people getting on at Bacchus Marsh so this again has been poor planning and shortcuts.
    x31
    Swan Hill line is struggling with slow and failed trains.  Also factor in petrol prices vs fare prices.  The former has mostly gone down, the latter has increased.

    The whole Ballarat line has bonkers growth.  And it's only going to get more bonkers.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 14:42
      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    With regard Albury passengers 44k per annum is 14% down in the peak with people voting with their feet.  Bairnsdale is 30% more in passenger numbers when Albury was higher than Bairnsdale 15 years ago.  V/Line have really slaughtered that service.
    x31

    You probably should be apportioning blame, if any to ARTC.

    V/Line did the best they could within the constraints of damaged rolling stock and locomotives due to the condition of the track.

    To a much lesser degree there were faults on the N cars that cannot be attributed to the track...such as air-con faults.

    Mike.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 15:54
      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    Swan Hill taking a downward turn as the service has not been improved and is slower than it was 4 years ago.  Unreliability?

    Wendouree has experienced amazing growth.

    The decision to only electrify to Melton is a poor one with 300,000 people getting on at Bacchus Marsh so this again has been poor planning and shortcuts.
    Swan Hill line is struggling with slow and failed trains.  Also factor in petrol prices vs fare prices.  The former has mostly gone down, the latter has increased.

    The whole Ballarat line has bonkers growth.  And it's only going to get more bonkers.
    Carnot

    Attribute a lot of that to Melton, as it was a few years ago when Bendigo included Sunbury numbers before the sparks.

    Mike.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 15:57
      x31 Chief Commissioner

    Location: gallifrey
    As Ballarat grows out west what would/was the next station from Wendouree?
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 15:58
      Carnot Minister for Railways

    As Ballarat grows out west what would/was the next station from Wendouree?
    x31
    Burrumbeet.  No sign of a housing boom there yet.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 16:04
      x31 Chief Commissioner

    Location: gallifrey
    What happened to the intermodal terminal being planned near that location?
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 16:47
      mikesyd Chief Commissioner

    Location: Lurking
    Seymour much larger than Wallan adding weight to replan of electrification.

    Shame the figures do not include coach stops.
    x31
    Seymour is NOT 'much larger' than Wallan which overtook it population wise before the 2006 Census.

    EDIT : Seymour may currently have more passenger numbers, but then those have been stable for the past 3 years, whereas Wallan is rising and will probably overtake it in a couple of years. I honestly do find the Seymour numbers to be a bit odd and wonder just how they are counted when you consider that Marshall (which has supposedly fallen) is not far ahead. As the author said "I will be writing a series of posts interrogating this data more closely over the coming weeks".

    The population of Wallan at the 2016 Census was 11074 - was 7811 in 2011 and 6640 in 2006

    And with all of the housing being built there, Wallan has no doubt grown even more since 2016.

    The population of Seymour at the 2016 Census was 6327 - was 6370 in 2011 and 6304 in 2006

    Whereas the population of Seymour has remined stable.

    Source : http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/Home/2016%20QuickStats
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 17:34

    Last edited by mikesyd on 21 Feb 2019 17:58; edited 3 times in total
      justarider Chief Commissioner

    Location: Free at last, free at last
    Swan Hill taking a downward turn as the service has not been improved and is slower than it was 4 years ago.  Unreliability?

    Wendouree has experienced amazing growth.

    The decision to only electrify to Melton is a poor one with 300,000 people getting on at Bacchus Marsh so this again has been poor planning and shortcuts.
    Swan Hill line is struggling with slow and failed trains.  Also factor in petrol prices vs fare prices.  The former has mostly gone down, the latter has increased.

    The whole Ballarat line has bonkers growth.  And it's only going to get more bonkers.

    Attribute a lot of that to Melton, as it was a few years ago when Bendigo included Sunbury numbers before the sparks.

    Mike.
    The Vinelander
    agreed Mike.

    Limiting sparks to Melton gives a win/win.
    The Vline service from Ballarat is near enough full by Bacchus Marsh, and could just express from there.
    Melton starting sparks would be full by Sunshine - and NOT over full.

    Both services full but not a crush like it is now. It's called efficient use of resources.

    cheers
    John
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 18:08
      Nightfire Minister for Railways

    Location: Gippsland

    Limiting sparks to Melton gives a win/win.
    The Vline service from Ballarat is near enough full by Bacchus Marsh, and could just express from there.
    Melton starting sparks would be full by Sunshine - and NOT over full.

    Both services full but not a crush like it is now. It's called efficient use of resources.

    cheers
    John
    justarider
    So how would one get from Melton to Bacchus Marsh and stations beyond visa versa ?

    Are you assuming everyone Is traveling to and from Melbourne City ?
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 22:37
      potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

    So how would one get from Melton to Bacchus Marsh and stations beyond visa versa ?
    Valvegear

    Correct. There has to be a (pick up only/drop off only) stop at the suburban terminus to make the service workable for non-city travel.

    This isn’t and shouldn’t be a game about travel time; as those numbers show, capacity is problem number one.
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 23:54
      justarider Chief Commissioner

    Location: Free at last, free at last
    Limiting sparks to Melton gives a win/win.
    The Vline service from Ballarat is near enough full by Bacchus Marsh, and could just express from there.
    Melton starting sparks would be full by Sunshine - and NOT over full.

    Both services full but not a crush like it is now. It's called efficient use of resources.

    cheers
    John
    So how would one get from Melton to Bacchus Marsh and stations beyond visa versa ?

    Are you assuming everyone Is traveling to and from Melbourne City ?
    Nightfire
    Indeed cross-overs are the tricky bit. How to keep Metro passengers off the Vline trains ?

    Same problem that Vline tries to solve with the Watergardens stop.

    In principal (but reality is a lot harder), need 2 island platforms at Melton.
    darn: track flyover too, crossing at grade no thanks.

    Probably at Melton
    UP from Ballarat can cross-over to the Metro UP - But you cannot enter the Vline UP platform from outside.

    DOWN Metro can cross-over to the DOWN Vline - But you cannot exit the Vline platform to outside (ask the station attendant to open the gate - buzzer to other end of station and have to wait, and wait....) Get caught a couple of times and learn.

    Metro train UP/DOWN placement is awkward: smarter brains needed.

    Comes down to fences , one-way gates and station staff enforcing the rules.

    Considering all the work needed to get sparks at Melton (tracks, overheads, storage lines) ; playing a bit with the platforms is not that much extra.

    cheers
    John
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 00:00
      Nightfire Minister for Railways

    Location: Gippsland
    Indeed cross-overs are the tricky bit. How to keep Metro passengers off the Vline trains ?

    Same problem that Vline tries to solve with the Watergardens stop.

    In principal (but reality is a lot harder), need 2 island platforms at Melton.
    darn: track flyover too, crossing at grade no thanks.

    Probably at Melton
    UP from Ballarat can cross-over to the Metro UP - But you cannot enter the Vline UP platform from outside.

    DOWN Metro can cross-over to the DOWN Vline - But you cannot exit the Vline platform to outside (ask the station attendant to open the gate - buzzer to other end of station and have to wait, and wait....) Get caught a couple of times and learn.

    Metro train UP/DOWN placement is awkward: smarter brains needed.

    Comes down to fences , one-way gates and station staff enforcing the rules.

    Considering all the work needed to get sparks at Melton (tracks, overheads, storage lines) ; playing a bit with the platforms is not that much extra.

    cheers
    John
    justarider
    What rubbish !

    How about you see how the Gippsland services work, with station stops at the likes of Flinders Street, Caulfield, Clayton and Dandenong and sometimes Berwick.

    Passenger Information Display and the V/Line conductor, keep passengers In check.
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 05:22
      stooge spark Chief Train Controller

    Location: My House
    Dont forget the customers as well! I actually remember someone who got really peed off to the point of him being kicked off because he got mad at someone getting on at dandy to city.
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 08:09
      justarider Chief Commissioner

    Location: Free at last, free at last
    Indeed cross-overs are the tricky bit. How to keep Metro passengers off the Vline trains ?
    ....
    Comes down to fences , one-way gates and station staff enforcing the rules.

    cheers
    John
    What rubbish !

    How about you see how the Gippsland services work, with station stops at the likes of Flinders Street, Caulfield, Clayton and Dandenong and sometimes Berwick.

    Passenger Information Display and the V/Line conductor, keep passengers In check.
    Nightfire
    of course it's rubbish, but people do what people do.

    In your case of Gippsland, there is no difference between the Vline or Metro run time. So little incentive to game the system.
    Even so , as @stooge pointed out, it does happen, and there is nothing that the conductor can or will do about it.

    In the case of Melton, there would be a huge difference (at least 10 minutes). A great incentive to break the "silly rules".
    What is the conductor to do, guarding 12 doors with 50+ passengers trying to board an already full train.
    Call out a platoon of Enforement officer/PSO/Station attendants ? NOT a good look.

    Even tickets don't help. It's all Miki, which is not clairvoyant where you want to go, or how you get there.

    Hence you need to design the station as a system that leads passengers to where to want them to go, and not overload where they should not.

    cheers
    John
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 11:05
      bevans Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Attribute a lot of that to Melton, as it was a few years ago when Bendigo included Sunbury numbers before the sparks.

    Mike.agreed Mike.

    Limiting sparks to Melton gives a win/win.
    The Vline service from Ballarat is near enough full by Bacchus Marsh, and could just express from there.
    Melton starting sparks would be full by Sunshine - and NOT over full.

    Both services full but not a crush like it is now. It's called efficient use of resources.

    cheers
    John
    justarider

    How is Bacchus Marsh grow attributed to Melton?  To make more space available for Ballarat passengers extend the electrification to that location taking in Melton and Bacchus Marsh services on Metro trains and leaving capacity on V/Line for the continuing growth for Ballarat stations.
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 11:13
      justarider Chief Commissioner

    Location: Free at last, free at last

    Attribute a lot of that to Melton, as it was a few years ago when Bendigo included Sunbury numbers before the sparks.

    Mike. -@vinelander

    agreed Mike.

    Limiting sparks to Melton gives a win/win.
    The Vline service from Ballarat is near enough full by Bacchus Marsh, and could just express from there.
    Melton starting sparks would be full by Sunshine - and NOT over full.

    Both services full but not a crush like it is now. It's called efficient use of resources.

    cheers
    John - @justarider


    How is Bacchus Marsh grow attributed to Melton?  To make more space available for Ballarat passengers extend the electrification to that location taking in Melton and Bacchus Marsh services on Metro trains and leaving capacity on V/Line for the continuing growth for Ballarat stations.
    bevans
    @bevans If you take both Bacchus Marsh and Melton off the Vline, you create a real possibility that the Ballarat train is now seen as lightly loaded. Good for the lucky few that have 2 seats to lounge on, but not very efficient.

    Lightly loaded train runs the risk that the rolling stock can be better utilised elsewhere (ie Reduced frequency - OUCH!!)

    Comparison passenger count:
    1. Ararat thru Ballan (Vline) = 984K, Bacchus thru Caroline S (Metro)= 1112K
    or
    2. Ararat thru Bacchus        = 1291K, Melton thru Caroline S = 805K
    or (current)
    3. Ararat thru Caroline S     = 2096K

    No matter how much you think Ballarat is growing,
    Option 1. is a massive reduction in passengers that would not be recouped.
    Option 2. might just get away with it

    cheers
    John

    Source: Vline stats 2016/7 : ARA 40K, BFR 9K, WED 131K, BAL 604K, BLN 100K, BAH 307K, MLT 726K, RKB 19K, RVH 60K.
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 12:06

    Last edited by justarider on 22 Feb 2019 12:07; edited 1 time in total
      stooge spark Chief Train Controller

    Location: My House
    For what it's worth I made a spreadsheet of train patronage data per day for 2013-2014 and 2016-2017
    Any inaccuracies please tell me
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PDjOduuAoYDYnaZHTNQMGL0a802EeO7be6AegNHudGU/edit?usp=sharing
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 13:21

    Last edited by stooge spark on 22 Feb 2019 13:22; edited 1 time in total
      james.au Minister for Railways

    Location: Sydney, NSW
    MARYBOROUGH - less than 10k per year, and in 16/17, 8350.  That is an AVERAGE OF 22/23 PER DAY

    This is the data we need to prove up why more cost shouldn't be spent on Maryborough Pax.

    Edit: Adding in Crewsick, Clunes and Talbot gives a total of 12,760 pax per year (in 2016/17) averaging 35 passengers per day.

    These are sprinter volumes at best.
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 13:34

    Last edited by james.au on 22 Feb 2019 13:48; edited 1 time in total
      justarider Chief Commissioner

    Location: Free at last, free at last
    MARYBOROUGH - less than 10k per year, and in 16/17, 8350.  That is an AVERAGE OF 22/23 PER DAY
    This is the data we need to prove up why more cost shouldn't be spent on Maryborough Pax.
    james.au
    or just anecdotes from several friends that travel there. "4 people got off" is a common theme.
    said before; a single SG Sprinter is plenty- pity they don't exist.

    cheers
    John
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 13:47
      james.au Minister for Railways

    Location: Sydney, NSW
    Perhaps putting a decent part of the sprinter fleet on SG and basing them out of Ballarat for the Western Vic passenger service would make sense...
    Posted: 22 Feb 2019 13:49

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