Murray Basin standardisation

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Well as the RRA made the damming statement, perhaps they could tell their audience just where the grain from Dunolly is going, rather than make broad statement with no facts - perhaps all the trucks they mention were delivering to Dunolly, and leaving empty?

The eventual completion of the MBRP should see that BG track removed, or converted to SG in any case as there is no justification to terminate BG passenger trains there.
mikesyd

There are no plans to remove all the BG on the North Western Network as I understand BG will remain to Dunolly and remain connected all the way through to Ballan and Geelong.

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  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Well as the RRA made the damming statement, perhaps they could tell their audience just where the grain from Dunolly is going, rather than make broad statement with no facts - perhaps all the trucks they mention were delivering to Dunolly, and leaving empty?

The eventual completion of the MBRP should see that BG track removed, or converted to SG in any case as there is no justification to terminate BG passenger trains there.

There are no plans to remove all the BG on the North Western Network as I understand BG will remain to Dunolly and remain connected all the way through to Ballan and Geelong.
bevans
Time will tell I guess.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Well as the RRA made the damming statement, perhaps they could tell their audience just where the grain from Dunolly is going, rather than make broad statement with no facts - perhaps all the trucks they mention were delivering to Dunolly, and leaving empty?

The eventual completion of the MBRP should see that BG track removed, or converted to SG in any case as there is no justification to terminate BG passenger trains there.

There are no plans to remove all the BG on the North Western Network as I understand BG will remain to Dunolly and remain connected all the way through to Ballan and Geelong.
bevans
When they announce the works for the Freight Passenger Separation Project we will know more.  As we know, we hope they go with a more 'standard' solution...
  kitchgp Deputy Commissioner

There are no plans to remove all the BG on the North Western Network as I understand BG will remain to Dunolly and remain connected all the way through to Ballan and Geelong.
bevans


In the last iteration of the MBRP, Warrenheip - Gehringhap, originally planned as DG, is to be SG. The existing Gehringhap - North Geelong DG will become redundant unless it's kept as part of some sort of Geelong suburban service.

Ballarat - Maryborough is planned as DG. The pre-existing Maryborough - Dunolly DG (SG hardly used until now) is being kept as the result of some sort of political promise to return passenger services to Dunolly. Whether that was made by both the LNP and Labor or just the LNP is debatable.

Obviously Ballarat - Ballan - Melbourne will remain BG.

Hopefully common sense will prevail with the all DG being dropped in favour of SG only.
  kitchgp Deputy Commissioner

Out of idle interest, is there anywhere grain can be transshipped efficiently, ie unloaded directly from a BG (NG) wagon into a SG wagon or vice versa?
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Out of idle interest, is there anywhere grain can be transshipped efficiently, ie unloaded directly from a BG (NG) wagon into a SG wagon or vice versa?
kitchgp
I think that Dunolly was the only one - and the sole reason for SG getting there 20 years ago - so that grain could get to Portland from beyond Dunolly.

Edit - Not sure about what happened at Gladstone and Peterborough in SA when the NG lines to their North were still open.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Did any trains actually use the transhipping capability at Dunolly?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Id say transhipment went the way of the subterminal system in NSW - the cost of double handling wasn't worth it so it didn't happen.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Id say transhipment went the way of the subterminal system in NSW - the cost of double handling wasn't worth it so it didn't happen.
james.au
So is this an example of build it and they won't come? Government spending $$$ on infrastructure upgrades demanded by the private sector which they then don't use?

Maybe this is why the government doesn't rush out and upgrade rail lines on a whim. I have read the MB business case (as I think you have @James.au) and it will be interesting to see how that goes in terms of actual traffic vs projected traffic.

BG
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Id say transhipment went the way of the subterminal system in NSW - the cost of double handling wasn't worth it so it didn't happen.
So is this an example of build it and they won't come? Government spending $$$ on infrastructure upgrades demanded by the private sector which they then don't use?

Maybe this is why the government doesn't rush out and upgrade rail lines on a whim. I have read the MB business case (as I think you have @James.au) and it will be interesting to see how that goes in terms of actual traffic vs projected traffic.

BG
BrentonGolding
Back then it wasn't the private sector.  The sub terminals concept was a creation of the NSWGEB and the railways at the time.  Government agencies....  Dunolly was under the control of the Victorian GEB so same difference.

Id say they've learned now, and with the number of stakeholders identifiable on 2 hands, they could have conversations and make sure they were acommodated for.

The only thing that I have problem with in this approach is that they don't talk to potential new entrants and possibly entrench the incumbents through their actions.

Re the MB business case, id say its ok, but its holey.  The mineral sands business has probably been pushed down the road from where it is now.

But if Wakefields are up to 5 services, chances are the desired daily services could be seen soon which will be an improvement.  I would love to see the fleet utilisation figures.

Does anyone know what happened to the BG container wagon rake that used to do the Wakefield service?
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
Id say transhipment went the way of the subterminal system in NSW - the cost of double handling wasn't worth it so it didn't happen.
So is this an example of build it and they won't come? Government spending $$$ on infrastructure upgrades demanded by the private sector which they then don't use?

Maybe this is why the government doesn't rush out and upgrade rail lines on a whim. I have read the MB business case (as I think you have @James.au) and it will be interesting to see how that goes in terms of actual traffic vs projected traffic.

BG
Back then it wasn't the private sector.  The sub terminals concept was a creation of the NSWGEB and the railways at the time.  Government agencies....  Dunolly was under the control of the Victorian GEB so same difference.

Id say they've learned now, and with the number of stakeholders identifiable on 2 hands, they could have conversations and make sure they were acommodated for.

The only thing that I have problem with in this approach is that they don't talk to potential new entrants and possibly entrench the incumbents through their actions.

Re the MB business case, id say its ok, but its holey.  The mineral sands business has probably been pushed down the road from where it is now.

But if Wakefields are up to 5 services, chances are the desired daily services could be seen soon which will be an improvement.  I would love to see the fleet utilisation figures.

Does anyone know what happened to the BG container wagon rake that used to do the Wakefield service?
james.au

Most just transferred to other duties.

Some of the VQCX's at least are being fitted with steel rod coil cradles and put on SG 70 ton bogies to join the interstate steel fleet, with VQCX 607-N so being noted as done and under test. Apparently supposed to be quite a lot to be done.
  Bonzel Locomotive Fireman

Did any trains actually use the transhipping capability at Dunolly?
bevans
Yes they did and it was quiet common also , all the times i seen it it was SG grain being transfered to Bg to go to Sunshine GEB or Kensington.
  firefox Station Master

Id say transhipment went the way of the subterminal system in NSW - the cost of double handling wasn't worth it so it didn't happen.
james.au

I can assure you that the grain subterminal system is alive and well in NSW. The main locations are Moree, Werris Creek, Parkes, Temora and Junee. That's where the Western Victoria to NSW grain is going - into the subterminals. The grain for Manildra Group is going to Manildra - some direct (after the train is broken in two at Parkes), some into Parkes Sub at Mugincoble, then later reloaded and shuttled to Manildra as required.

In a non-drought year, the Subterminals are still busy. What keeps them going is the deregulated grain export market and the existence of "grain originators" such as Louis Dreyfus. Grain can be stored by GrainCorp using PN crewed trains, sold to say Louis Dreyfus at the Sub, then hauled to seaboard export terminals by anyone - often SSR.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Id say transhipment went the way of the subterminal system in NSW - the cost of double handling wasn't worth it so it didn't happen.

I can assure you that the grain subterminal system is alive and well in NSW. The main locations are Moree, Werris Creek, Parkes, Temora and Junee. That's where the Western Victoria to NSW grain is going - into the subterminals. The grain for Manildra Group is going to Manildra - some direct (after the train is broken in two at Parkes), some into Parkes Sub at Mugincoble, then later reloaded and shuttled to Manildra as required.

In a non-drought year, the Subterminals are still busy. What keeps them going is the deregulated grain export market and the existence of "grain originators" such as Louis Dreyfus. Grain can be stored by GrainCorp using PN crewed trains, sold to say Louis Dreyfus at the Sub, then hauled to seaboard export terminals by anyone - often SSR.
firefox
The original point of the subterminal system was to allow branch line locos to collect grain from small sites to keep them flowing and dump them at the subterminals.  From here they could be exported at a later date.  But the cost of double handling was too much and now its mainly block trains from upcountry running all the way to the port instead of dumping their grain at the ST and going back upcountry.

What you say is a secondary use for them, which I am glad to see happening, but not their original, intended use.  t would be great to have a few more grain unloading sites around the country to allow more rail transport to happen.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Did any trains actually use the transhipping capability at Dunolly?
Yes they did and it was quiet common also , all the times i seen it it was SG grain being transfered to Bg to go to Sunshine GEB or Kensington.
Bonzel
Interesting info Bonzel, GEB eh, your going back quite a way there, so where would the in-bound SG train originated from ? Do you know what grain type is required at Kensington, it seems strange that the grain needed  had to be sourced from a SG delivery point.

BigShunter.
  Bonzel Locomotive Fireman

Did any trains actually use the transhipping capability at Dunolly?
Yes they did and it was quiet common also , all the times i seen it it was SG grain being transfered to Bg to go to Sunshine GEB or Kensington.
Interesting info Bonzel, GEB eh, your going back quite a way there, so where would the in-bound SG train originated from ? Do you know what grain type is required at Kensington, it seems strange that the grain needed  had to be sourced from a SG delivery point.

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Can remember places like Antwerp ,Beulah ,Brim , Rainbow , Warrackside. They were mainly loaded with milling grain or malting barley for mills in Melbourne area. Link below is a pic of a sg grain at Dunolly.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gsrailcam/33408381518
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
So some of this traffic would have terminated at Weston Milling?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
It would be great to have a few more grain unloading sites around the country to allow more rail transport to happen.
james.au
Just an example of this - when the Inland goes through the Downs/Townsville region of Queensland, there could be an opportunity for a rail unloader in that area to serve the feedlots etc in years where the season is not favourable - like this one just gone and the one before it.  Grain could be hauled to that area just as it is being hauled to Moree now.  Im not sure but it could be possible that some of that grain going to Moree is going by truck further north anyway.  I think i have seen reports that grain is coming into Brisbane to be sent to feedlots in the Downs anyway too (though I could be wrong on this so don't quote me - and i dont have time right now to go searching)
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
So some of this traffic would have terminated at Weston Milling?
bevans

Allied Mills Kensington or Sunshine GEB for Carlton & United Breweries.

AFAIK Weston's never had a Victorian base and were/are located at Enfield in Sydney.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
So some of this traffic would have terminated at Weston Milling?

Allied Mills Kensington or Sunshine GEB for Carlton & United Breweries.

AFAIK Weston's never had a Victorian base and were/are located at Enfield in Sydney.
Greensleeves

Do CUB still get grain from Sunshine?
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
So some of this traffic would have terminated at Weston Milling?

Allied Mills Kensington or Sunshine GEB for Carlton & United Breweries.

AFAIK Weston's never had a Victorian base and were/are located at Enfield in Sydney.

Do CUB still get grain from Sunshine?
bevans

I don't think Sunshine is used at all any more.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

No point as such other than acknowledging the value we are now seeing for the SG works enabling for the first time trains to load in North west victoria and be able to unload interstate.  This is certainly valuable.

The video shows track at the Platform which seems to indicate BG only at the station platform.  Downside is the inability to get a BG grain into the loading terminal at Dunolly when you could prior to the works.  This would enable a very direct route for trains between Dunolly terminal and the Geelong Grain loop on BG.
Well as the RRA made the damming statement, perhaps they could tell their audience just where the grain from Dunolly is going, rather than make broad statement with no facts - perhaps all the trucks they mention were delivering to Dunolly, and leaving empty?

The eventual completion of the MBRP should see that BG track removed, or converted to SG in any case as there is no justification to terminate BG passenger trains there.
mikesyd
Well there might not be any justification for extending VLP bg pass to Dunolly  BUT  Andrews has a strict policy - "We say what we do, and we do what we say !!!" So it will happen , and the existing dg between Maryborough and Dunolly will therefore remain .
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Well as the RRA made the damming statement, perhaps they could tell their audience just where the grain from Dunolly is going, rather than make broad statement with no facts - perhaps all the trucks they mention were delivering to Dunolly, and leaving empty?

The eventual completion of the MBRP should see that BG track removed, or converted to SG in any case as there is no justification to terminate BG passenger trains there.

There are no plans to remove all the BG on the North Western Network as I understand BG will remain to Dunolly and remain connected all the way through to Ballan and Geelong.
bevans
For the umpteenth time I yet again  post the current policy  is :

-  Dual gauge retained Maryborough - Dunolly and VLP extended to Dunolly - election promise 10/2018
- Dual gauge Ballarat - Maryborough so VLP get their wish to just have a North Western broad gauge train set
-  STANDARD GAUGE ONLY FROM  WARRENHEIP TO GHERINGHAP with South Line Warrenheip - Ballarat East converted to standard gauge , sg through Ballarat from North Ballarat Junction to Ballarat East via Centre Road through Ballarat station with no dg turnouts just gauge splitters .  Nice and simple .

BUT just wait till the first decent grain harvest comes along and the following problems will arise :
- insufficient stabling roads at Maryborough of insufficient length
- no crossing loop between Warrenheip & Maryborough .
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
-  Dual gauge retained Maryborough - Dunolly and VLP extended to Dunolly - election promise 10/2018
kuldalai
Are we sure?  Here is the wording:

The project will retain the dual-gauge connection between Maryborough and Dunolly to allow future passenger rail to Dunolly.
Premier of Victoria
See https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/delivering-future-benefits-for-maryborough-passengers/


Is that a promise?  In my view it could go either way....
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Yeah, they haven’t committed to actually extending the passenger service. My bet is they probably won’t bother.

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