XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  SAB Chief Train Controller

No where, just giving you a heads up

Sponsored advertisement

  SAB Chief Train Controller

Well not in the public announcement anyway, but it’s certainly written down if you get my drift
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

After doing some research is that the 565kw version of the mtu v12? Is there anything else not mentioned in the public presentation that is written down that would be interesting? Tilt / bi mode etc?
  SAB Chief Train Controller

I think you will find it’s the top of the range 700kw version - subject to detailed design of course.

That’s raw engine hp - not off the alternator according to MTU.

From this, both traction and auxiliary investors are fed.

Similar engine HP to car ratio as an XP+3 cars or 2XP+6 cars, but with the advantages of lower mass (no loco and aluminum cars), 50% mass available for traction (similar to Xplorer), and variable frequency AC traction motors (vs DC or Hydraulic transmission).

Auxiliary loads should be lower to through more modern HVAC units.

Not dragging the deadweight of an auxiliary engine around (Xplorer) or having the rear power car providing limited tractive effect due to auxiliary load (XPT).

As for tilt, it’s a safe assumption when you view the public images of the flat sides, that this is not tilt capable. Compared to the UK models, the bodyshell profile has been expanded to take full advantage of the interstate loading gauge.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I think you will find it’s the top of the range 700kw version - subject to detailed design of course.

That’s raw engine hp - not off the alternator according to MTU.

From this, both traction and auxiliary investors are fed.

Similar engine HP to car ratio as an XP+3 cars or 2XP+6 cars, but with the advantages of lower mass (no loco and aluminum cars), 50% mass available for traction (similar to Xplorer), and variable frequency AC traction motors (vs DC or Hydraulic transmission).

Auxiliary loads should be lower to through more modern HVAC units.

Not dragging the deadweight of an auxiliary engine around (Xplorer) or having the rear power car providing limited tractive effect due to auxiliary load (XPT).

As for tilt, it’s a safe assumption when you view the public images of the flat sides, that this is not tilt capable. Compared to the UK models, the bodyshell profile has been expanded to take full advantage of the interstate loading gauge.
SAB

Any ideas on the dry weight/ tare weight of these DMU units? The UK article suggested around 45- 46 tonnes, but that was the all electric version. A DMU would weigh more than that.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Xplorers are 57 tonnes and some of the carriages in the new trains will not have a motor according to SAB and so expect those carriage to be about 46 tonnes.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Not sure if this has been posted up as yet...

https://www.centralwesterndaily.com.au/story/5905796/160kmh-replacements-for-xpt-among-28b-regional-rail-fleet-video/#slide=2

There is a video with artist impression.

What alternatives could we have had to this Spanish train?

Are these trains as rugged and utilitarian as an XPL that goes through dust storms and very high temperatures in western NSW?

Why are we always turning to see what the UK buys and then we copy?
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Not sure if this has been posted up as yet...

https://www.centralwesterndaily.com.au/story/5905796/160kmh-replacements-for-xpt-among-28b-regional-rail-fleet-video/#slide=2

There is a video with artist impression.

What alternatives could we have had to this Spanish train?

Are these trains as rugged and utilitarian as an XPL that goes through dust storms and very high temperatures in western NSW?

Why are we always turning to see what the UK buys and then we copy?
ANR
I agree that we're too transfixed on the UK, including importing their management personnel, which has gone on for decades by both sides of government.  It's time we looked outside the square and embraced a wider pool of expertise.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Not sure if this has been posted up as yet...

https://www.centralwesterndaily.com.au/story/5905796/160kmh-replacements-for-xpt-among-28b-regional-rail-fleet-video/#slide=2

There is a video with artist impression.

What alternatives could we have had to this Spanish train?

Are these trains as rugged and utilitarian as an XPL that goes through dust storms and very high temperatures in western NSW?

Why are we always turning to see what the UK buys and then we copy?
ANR
Have you been to central/Southern Spain? Think tumble weed. It's EU's only desert, 40C in summer, dusty, no rain. The outskirts of Madrid was basically last villa, then SFA.  They have in the past filled Hollywood Western's in Southern Spain.

Do you recommend any other options?
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I know they shot some of Clint Eastwood's spag westerns in the Spanish desert but not sure if any trains run through it.

I don't know what else we could have selected from which is why I ask. How does the Acela stack up? The design of the XPL I would have thought (along with a prospector style train) has been proven in terms of design, practicality, and reliability.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I know they shot some of Clint Eastwood's spag westerns in the Spanish desert but not sure if any trains run through it.

I don't know what else we could have selected from which is why I ask. How does the Acela stack up? The design of the XPL I would have thought (along with a prospector style train) has been proven in terms of design, practicality, and reliability.
ANR

The Acela is a vhst electric train based off the TGV / AGV design. This train would not have been possible unless we had ovehead beyond the Sydney trains network.

The new regional train is a much better design then the vlocity with diesel electric propulsion and a decent power pack. No exhaust in the centre of the train like the endeavour, xplorer and vlocity have. No unreliable transmission or the noise that it makes either.

Also this train is a 200km/h capable one if such is needed in the future.
  turnsole80 Beginner

Location: Canberra, Australian Capital Territory
So, this might be getting in a bit ahead of time, but I figure it's worth thinking about now...

1) Who do I email at the Rail Transport Museum to make sure one of the XPTs is preserved?

2) Who do lobby to have said preserved XPT repainted back to it's original red livery?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
So, this might be getting in a bit ahead of time, but I figure it's worth thinking about now...

1) Who do I email at the Rail Transport Museum to make sure one of the XPTs is preserved?

2) Who do lobby to have said preserved XPT repainted back to it's original red livery?
turnsole80
  1. https://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/contact
  2. Buy the paint yourself and offer to donate it in exchange.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I know they shot some of Clint Eastwood's spag westerns in the Spanish desert but not sure if any trains run through it.

I don't know what else we could have selected from which is why I ask. How does the Acela stack up? The design of the XPL I would have thought (along with a prospector style train) has been proven in terms of design, practicality, and reliability.
ANR
Yes, Madrid is in the edge of the desert. Almeria is on coast to south.

Acela doesn't operate in hot dusty climates of NSW, so no. Its also a spark.

XPL is an old design with a lot of reasons why not to use it and some that were not a good idea 25 years ago.

Buy something that is working elsewhere, your chances of success are much higher.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

So, this might be getting in a bit ahead of time, but I figure it's worth thinking about now...

1) Who do I email at the Rail Transport Museum to make sure one of the XPTs is preserved?

2) Who do lobby to have said preserved XPT repainted back to it's original red livery?
turnsole80
I've still got my Lima model XPT in its original livery.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I read the spiel in the PDF document [P82 of this thread] about how the new CAF trains will be adapted for use in the UK. The date of the article was 2018.

How long have these Spanish trains been in service for, anywhere in the world? Is any operator currently running them for over 1,000km every 15 hours? What are their service intervals?

I imagine that a Syd-Mel Syd-Bne, or Syd-BH (in future?) will be turned around for the return leg after a crew change, refuel and clean. Sounds more like the territory of hook-n-pull locos.

Is it too optimistic to expect these kind of service levels with this new style of train on Australian SG tracks?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The CAF is a modular design and no less capable then anything we could build here. If anything it will be more capable since the design is capable of bi modal operation and has electric propulsion instead of the hydraulic Xplorer and Vlocity. It is going to be similar in width to an Xplorer, endeavour, hunter and XPT. It will be more fuel efficient and quieter. It is a european design and not english although it does have an MTU engine.

Anything else upset you ANR about this train?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Short of this lack of imagination, can anyone please post pics of trains this winning consortium (or parts thereof) has manufactured and delivered in recent times?

Image courtest of RailBusinessDaily.

Apparently not going to be too dissimilar to the Class 195 now being delivered to the Poms. Can't say I am overly sold on the middle doors, vs having a vestibule on either end though. Disc brakes should allow a small performance improvement, and with nearly double the overall power-to-weight ratio of an 7-car XPT it should result in a measurable reduction in the sectional times. There's a bit of a spiel about the 195's in *.PDF format HERE.

The new CountryLink Driver's office, maybe:


Found this HD youtube video too:



https://youtu.be/DVQTAyZ2WJ4
KRviator

It may share the same platform but will not look anything at all like this. Does the class 195 look anything at all like what is shown at this link - https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/regional-rail?
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Simstrain, I am not upset about the CAF design at all ( the replacement to vSet is another story).

It is just that I read a PDF in relation to the UK project and found this train had not been proven there as at 2018. Naturally, I would want to know how long the Spanish have been running with it and across what kind of distances.

Maybe this train was more suitable for inter urban duties, extendable to off wire locations e.g. Bomaderry, Bathurst, even Orange etc. Can it sustain the kind of long distance intercapital service levels that the XPT is struggling with?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Simstrain, I am not upset about the CAF design at all ( the replacement to vSet is another story).

It is just that I read a PDF in relation to the UK project and found this train had not been proven there as at 2018. Naturally, I would want to know how long the Spanish have been running with it and across what kind of distances.

Maybe this train was more suitable for inter urban duties, extendable to off wire locations e.g. Bomaderry, Bathurst, even Orange etc. Can it sustain the kind of long distance intercapital service levels that the XPT is struggling with?
ANR

loco hauled is dead outside of expensive tourist trips such as the ghan and IP and historic tours. This is the way forward and it will cope with the terrain just as the xplorer does with long distance except because it is diesel electric instead of diesel hydraulic like the xplorer it will be more reliable and efficient. The new engine has twice the power as the xplorer and does so using less fuel and if it is bi-modal it will extend the range of the train without needing to refuel.

There were 2 other options with bombardier putting forward the vlocity and EDI a regional version of the hunter rail car which is nothing more then edi's version of an xplorer / vlocity. The CAF design is clearly superior and will provide a much better experience for regional patrons.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

There were 2 other options with bombardier putting forward the vlocity and EDI a regional version of the hunter rail car which is nothing more then edi's version of an xplorer / vlocity. The CAF design is clearly superior and will provide a much better experience for regional patrons.
simstrain

State parochialism would not have allowed the V'Locity to be considered for the NSW fleet renewal.

Whether something is 'superior' to another product will reveal itself in due course IE, The Proof of the pudding is in the Eating.

Also worth mentioning is V'Locity's in Victoria have been clocking up the Km's for around 15+ years, so obviously evolution in today's fast paced world will permit a newer product for NSW...and good luck to you for being in that space right now.

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

We bought xplorers but those have put us off Victorian product. These new CAF products are a step well above what bombardier was offering which was just another evolution in the Xplorer / Vlocity range. If we wanted to build in NSW then we could have chosen EDI but that would have just been a long distance derivative of the hunter rail car which is essentially the same as a vlocity.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
We bought xplorers but those have put us off Victorian product. These new CAF products are a step well above what bombardier was offering which was just another evolution in the Xplorer / Vlocity range. If we wanted to build in NSW then we could have chosen EDI but that would have just been a long distance derivative of the hunter rail car which is essentially the same as a vlocity.
simstrain
The Xplorers are grossly under-powered, the V/locities are much better.

I think the V/locity design, while obviously very good has run its course as the commuter lines move into more regular 6 car sets. Realistically the current order of V/locities should be the last with Geelong line sparked and those sets re-diverted to manage growth and expansion elsewhere. Likewise the eastern corridor and/or Ballarat will also follow in time to be sparked.

As for NSW, while I believe we are seeing the end of loco hauled Pax trains in Australia outside the GHAN/IP and heritage sets, give it 5-10 years and this will be all thats left. I think NSW needs more of a hybrid between a true DMU and loco hauled like XPT as the bulk of NSW Regional services are 3 - 6 cars.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I have used Xplorers, hunters and vlocities and I can tell you they aren't any better. As always the problem is transmission noise on anything with a voith.

This new trains electric propulsion system is a huge leap forward and with the engine not underneath the passengers but at the end near the vestibule it should also provide a quieter ride as well.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I have used Xplorers, hunters and vlocities and I can tell you they aren't any better. As always the problem is transmission noise on anything with a voith.

This new trains electric propulsion system is a huge leap forward and with the engine not underneath the passengers but at the end near the vestibule it should also provide a quieter ride as well.
simstrain

I like the transmission sound....I couldn't call it an intrusive 'noise'...and when the train slips into top gear at around 130 Km/h I know we are well on our way home at night...or to work in the morning... Smile

Mike.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.